tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post2410028222801315650..comments2024-03-29T06:58:28.383+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Reading for the WeekendPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-7396499829744991592016-03-30T17:45:34.857+13:002016-03-30T17:45:34.857+13:00Kia Ora Brian!
"In reality, it's a matte...<br />Kia Ora Brian!<br /><br />"In reality, it's a matter of trying to do justice to the actual texts of Scripture..."<br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />"...including especially the admonitory words of Christ. Did he mean what he said about hellfire..."<br /><br />Who says he didn't?<br /><br />"...or did he really mean 'Repent - or you'll spend thousands of years in purgatory until you see the light'?"<br /><br />The sense and the meaning of aionion have been much debated. <br /><br />"In which case, Luther was wrong to launch the Reformation and we'd better submit to Mother Rome tout de suite!"<br /><br />Why? Nobody is suggesting justification by earned merit as the papal party of the C16 did.<br /><br />"I don't know how Law is a 'metaphor' rather than a fundamental principle governing God's relation to his world." <br /><br />Law is one of about five major relations of God to creatures in the OT, along with Spirit, Word, Presence, and Wisdom. <br /><br />http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_JIG.htm<br /><br />Law becomes a metaphor when scriptural language proper to the other relations is either redefined in terms of the Law or simply ignored. Redefinition happens, for example, when St Paul's references to being released from the power of sin are flattened into juridical references to forgiveness. Neglect happens, for further example, when, despite St Paul's abundance of references to it, the work of the Holy Spirit fails to make any appearance in a soteriology, or when it appears only to enable compliance with the Law.<br /><br />The revival of trinitarian theology in the C20 has brought greater sensitivity to what scripture is saying about Spirit, Word, Presence, and Wisdom. In response to that, many are shedding hypernomian excesses of the past, quite apart from any conscious thought of UR, as they retrieve Spirit, Word, Presence, and Wisdom from the inspired scriptures.<br /><br />Bowman Walton<br /><br /> <br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-39240810117004865652016-03-30T17:08:33.394+13:002016-03-30T17:08:33.394+13:00Bryden, Myk Habets's Evangelical Calvinism is ...Bryden, Myk Habets's Evangelical Calvinism is on my laptop, and his coauthor Bobby Grow is an online friend of mine. I look forward to their next book.<br /><br />Bowman WaltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-317254877156006302016-03-30T13:34:19.584+13:002016-03-30T13:34:19.584+13:00Your line of thinking, Bowman, @ March 30, 2016 at...Your line of thinking, Bowman, @ March 30, 2016 at 9:06 AM at the start, I sense to be really rather crucial as we seek greater rapprochement between Eastern and Western Christianity. See for example Myk Habets, Theosis <i>in the Theology of Thomas Torrance</i> (Ashgate New Critical Thinking in Religion, Theology and Biblical Studies. Farnham, UK: Ashgate, 2009). True; I am perhaps a little biased since he is a friend and colleague in STAANZ (Systematic Theology Association of Aotearoa New Zealand). He also kindly wrote some of the blurb for <i>LDL</i> - and so of course I am biased! For all that, not only does Myk recast some of the Union with Christ language of Calvin and so Torrance; he delves into Torrance’s own patristic heritage and his use of the same - all rather important IMHO. Enjoy!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-37195999164015518172016-03-30T09:47:34.400+13:002016-03-30T09:47:34.400+13:00"Rob Bell is not a universalist; he is a jour..."Rob Bell is not a universalist; he is a journalist."<br /><br />Ha ha, good one. There has in fact been a crop of young bucks hitting the buffers in middle age, men who were gifted youth pastors and independent church planters but not theologians: Steve Chalke in England, Bell, McLaren and that vulgar chap in Mars Hill whose name escapes me. Accountability and historical depth ('You are not the first person to wonder about this problem') are no bad things.<br />Yes, I pretty much agree with your list of issues, and as a demography bore I am interested in how these things project 10-15 years into the future: not hard to envisage in congregations with no children and scarcely anyone under 50.<br />Two other things to throw into the pot;<br />1. The Archbishops in the Church of England understand these questions and have thrown in their lot with the Holy Trinity Brompton approach to church planting and rejuvenation. For example, a new church is being established by HTB in London for the Midlands city of Derby which has a university but no lively Anglican evangelical church. Diocesan boundaries and legalistic talk about 'border crossing' (as if we were in the days of Prince Bishops!) don't cut it when survival is the name of the game. I expect a couple of English dioceses to disappear in a few years - and maybe a couple in NZ as well.<br />2. The special challenge in Europe is that the indigenous "white" youth is growing up 'non-religious' while those of immigrant stock are predominantly Muslim. Already Europe is fraught with this perplexity, in so many ways. Evangelising Europe's Muslims is one of the most pressing - and dangerous - tasks at hand. Is Anglicanism up to the job, not least in places where Muslims outnumber Anglicans?<br />Interesting times, as the Chinese say.BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-78958934254903064602016-03-30T09:06:05.027+13:002016-03-30T09:06:05.027+13:00Brian, our last comments seem to have crossed path...Brian, our last comments seem to have crossed paths in the ether. Thank you so much for your very thoughtful reply! It deserves more than these few quick thoughts.<br /><br />Rob Bell is not a universalist; he is a journalist.<br /><br />Karl Barth's doctrine of election undercuts the *limited atonement* and *double predestination* of Reformed orthodoxy since Dort. Some do regard his thought as *universalist*, but others (eg followers of T F Torrance) read him in ways nearer to Lutheran *universal objective justification* (UOJ) and Anglican *hypothetical universalism*. <br /><br />Donald Fairbairn, among other evangelicals, is blazing a trail through SS Irenaeus of Lyon, Athanasius of Alexandria, and Cyril of Alexandria to a theosis that avoids the direct union of the believer with the Godhead that is a feature of some early Eastern soteriologies. Following that trail, one should be able to retrieve the transformative aspects of UR without losing the most helpful aspects of Reformation soteriology. <br /><br />In the falling numbers of churches, we are still struggling to distinguish several simultaneous processes. Were we to grasp their several stories, we would be less gloomy and would busy ourselves with different things.<br /><br />(a) The average *product life* of congregations may be shortening. Many denominations have been expecting them to have medieval longevity in a fluid, postmodern social order. We may have to get used to the idea that as many as a third of them will be church plants, and another third in decline.<br /><br />(b) The part of our lives that we spend in intentional congregations that are not all about marriage and family may be increasing. <br /><br />(c) We are losing those for whom a light involvement in a church is a mark of good citizenship. <br /><br />(d) But this is making room for those converts whose zeal has always been a bit awkward for the good citizens.<br /><br />(e) Global migrations and trade are creating new pathways for evangelisation.<br /><br />(f) Those same migrations are creating diaspora communities that sometimes challenge our assumptions. (A small and shrinking parish I know found solvency and stability as a landlord to Haitian and South Sudanese, so that a gay, liberal TEC bishop found himself hosting congregations allied with the Global South, and the congregations themselves were unsure whose leadership they should follow.) <br /><br />(g) In some ways, the cathedral-centred diocese of the C4 seems better adapted to life in the C21 than the diocese of the C19 with more staff.<br /><br />It will not have escaped the notice of our readers that some Anglican dioceses are not well-ordered to engage these realities. <br /><br />We should really be paying much more attention to a different set of numbers that does not interest journalists but that should matter a lot to us.<br /><br />(i) The number and location of adult baptisms.<br /><br />(2) The percentage of congregations that are church plants.<br /><br />(3) The percentage of congregations that have unsustainably low memberships.<br /><br />(4) The actuarially projected lifespans of congregations.<br /><br />(5) The diversity of the congregations sharing catchments. <br /><br />(6) The number of new congregational types and their relative maturity.<br /><br />(7) The accessibility of the cathedral to those in outlying parishes.<br /><br />(8) Participating Christians from other lands.<br /><br />(9) Rental income from ecumenical partners.<br /><br />The C21 Church will fulfill many dreams of the C20. My only regret about this is that we will not live to experience it all for ourselves. <br /><br />Blessings,<br /><br />Bowman Walton<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33485754570348841112016-03-30T08:53:23.229+13:002016-03-30T08:53:23.229+13:00"It is also true that, despite that, most opp..."It is also true that, despite that, most opponents of U are also opponents [of] UR. They are, in both cases, defending Law as the ruling metaphor, even as the only metaphor, in our understanding of God."<br /><br />Well, I am tempted to say 'Only a Sith deals in absolutes', except I couldn't bring myself to see the later films. In reality, it's a matter of trying to do justice to the actual texts of Scripture, including especially the admonitory words of Christ. Did he mean what he said about hellfire - or did he really mean 'Repent - or you'll spend thousands of years in purgatory until you see the light'? In which case, Luther was wrong to launch the Reformation and we'd better submit to Mother Rome tout de suite!<br />I don't know how Law is a 'metaphor' rather than a fundamental principle governing God's relation to his world. If we were discussing Islam, for example, Law would readily come to mind. But for the Christian, the fundamental relational concept is not Law but Love: 'God is love' (something no Muslim could say, for obvious reasons). What this means is that the Wrath of God is *not* the primary or final truth about God but rather the reaction of His holy character to rebellion in His creation. The question is discussed in Don Carson's little book, 'The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God'. In any case, let us admit the hazards in using analogical reason to assay God's justice.<br /><br />BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60559395979421035632016-03-30T08:46:03.115+13:002016-03-30T08:46:03.115+13:00Kia Ora Bowman! Having sat with Hans, I suspect th...Kia Ora Bowman! Having sat with Hans, I suspect the designated U is but a sloppy subset of UR, where the real action is.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3306181708894653592016-03-29T23:35:53.479+13:002016-03-29T23:35:53.479+13:00A Clarification for Readers and Lexicographers
*U...A Clarification for Readers and Lexicographers<br /><br />*Universalism* (U) and *universal reconciliation* (UR) are not the same. U is a flat prediction that nobody will ultimately be rejected by God. The prediction is believed for a variety of reasons. UR is an eschatology in which the Father's creative activity-- now in a new mode enabled by the incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and session of the Son, and by the descent of the Holy Spirit-- completes his intention for the creation as a whole so that all are transformed. UR is believed as the Judaic faith in an active Creator God.<br /><br />U and UR do not necessarily entail each other. Many who have never heard of UR believe U on the simple moral ground that any other outcome is incompatible with God's character as they understand it. One could subscribe to UR but believe that souls could be lost through annihilation or rejected in a hell that is somehow compatible with the Father's intentions (eg to respect human will). <br /><br />It is true that most proponents of UR are also proponents of U. But it is also true that the U they envisage includes a purgation of sin that furthers the Father's creative intention. "Repent now or be purged by fire later." <br /><br />It is also true that, despite that, most opponents of U are also opponents UR. They are, in both cases, defending Law as the ruling metaphor, even as the only metaphor, in our understanding of God. <br /><br />The basic appeal of UR is that it emphasises what the scriptures say about God's transforming creativity about as much as the Latin eschatology emphasises what the scriptures say about God's law. It is reasonable to suspect that a binocular vision is better than either alone. But because readers from the two perspectives have historically read several passages of scripture differently (eg exegesis of Romans 5:12) they cannot simply be mashed together. Only a systematic comparative theology can hold the truths of both in focus while integrating them. That project has begun in the work of the most seminal scholars of our time, but it is not finished.<br /><br />Bowman Walton Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1481430062369230302016-03-29T22:34:33.641+13:002016-03-29T22:34:33.641+13:00I see it was rejected for exceeding 4096 character...I see it was rejected for exceeding 4096 characters - I'll try again (edited down): <br />“ ...To say that God's deepest will for his creation is a scheme of rewards and punishments is plainly to make a socially conservative choice.”<br />Well, I am a social conservative – but eternal life isn’t a reward, it’s a gift (justification of the ungodly).<br />“... a strictly retributive one that assigns him to an eternal cosmic prison.”<br />I confess I have no idea what ‘time’ means in the life to come. Space-time is our experience; is it God’s? I have no idea (but it’s a lively topic in evangelical philosophy, e.g. Helm vs. Craig). Perhaps I am an annihilationist (at least that’s how I think the texts can be fairly read). Many years ago Jim Packer gave a lecture on this but I regret I was too busy to attend. I feel the force of the argument ‘How is God glorified by souls suffering in hell for eternity for actions done in time?’ Although I re-read it recently, I can’t recall how C. S. Lewis handled George Macdonald’s concept of hell having exits to glory (if that’s what Macdonald said).<br /><br />“That such a heavenly social order is the Feuerbachian mirror of a certain earthly one once contributed much to its plausibility.”<br /><br />You should have guessed by now that I’m a reverse Feuerbachian!<br /><br />“There is probably no road from Schliermacher, Harnack, and Bultmann to the retrieval of apocalypticism implicit in UR. And as a matter of history, much of the impetus for rethinking the eschatology of the late medieval West has been the recognition that many of the fathers and the Church in the East have framed eschatology differently.”<br /><br />Well, it *is liberal if it denies simpliciter that hell doesn’t / couldn’t exist because God is love. I doubt if Rob Bell has read much of the Teutonic Three you mentioned. Wasn’t Barth a universalist too?<br /><br />“Now it is true that this poses a question to evangelicals: should they resituate the insights of the Reformers in the whole tradition of the undivided Church, or should they double down in their defense of the pre-Reformation Latin eschatology that the Reformation as a whole took for granted?”<br />The whole tradition? Nobody can do that. I like the Cappadocians but I think Origen had some kooky ideas. So did the early Church. And Calvin owed a lot more to the Greek Fathers than is often realised.<br />“ ...(A blogger for The Gospel Coalition a few years ago counted eighteen different evangelical movements for retrieval from patristic and medieval tradition.)”<br />A salutary thing too. It really gets my goat how ignorant most evangelicals – clergy especially – are of church history. A church that almost entirely ignores Holy Week, can you believe it!<br /><br />“(You may recall that Warfield in his famous Plan of Salvation chart could not bring himself to class Anglicans among the Reformed.) So in choosing a way at the fork above, an Anglican evangelical stays nearest to his own tradition in *resituating the insights of the Reformers in the whole tradition of the undivided Church*.”<br />I didn’t know that about BBW but I’m not surprised, given the liberal or liberal catholic character of 19th and 29th century American Episcopalianism. I don’t wonder what he would say today about American (or Scottish) Presbyterianism. No doubt in the apokatastasis, Donald Trump will put him right.<br /><br />“If careful investigation and critique of UR over the next century retrieves nuances of these [Bebbington] themes from scripture, it may also light up paths of preaching and service unseen today.”<br /><br />I hope it will have a century. Who knows what the future will bring for western Christianity? For my preaching and service, such as it is, I have four settled convictions: 1. God is love. 2. God is light. 3. I have no idea who is lost and God has not seen fit to tell me. 4. Woe is me if I preach not the gospel.<br />A blessed Paschal Evening to you. May Christ meet us on the Emmaus road of all our perplexities and make our hearts burn with love for Him and for the world.BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-50273969421595851272016-03-29T21:25:08.267+13:002016-03-29T21:25:08.267+13:00Hi Brian (?)
Sorry but I cannot find that comment,...Hi Brian (?)<br />Sorry but I cannot find that comment, not even in Spam!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63810604122094296992016-03-29T21:07:53.528+13:002016-03-29T21:07:53.528+13:00Bowman, I did reply to yours of 28 March, 9.23 am ...Bowman, I did reply to yours of 28 March, 9.23 am but Peter didn't publish it. Too long, I surmise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19048428258650837092016-03-29T18:14:04.875+13:002016-03-29T18:14:04.875+13:00Well Bowman; to toss in my tuppence worth here, I ...Well Bowman; to toss in my tuppence worth here, I agree fully that perhaps Von Balthasar has summarized best the issue before re UR, and here I’d point to another resource of his, as it’s tighter. May I suggest a section within his <i>Theodrama, V: The Last Act</i>, “Aspects of the Final Act”, B 2 onwards especially, “The Question of Universal Salvation”. This is not try to subject readers to yet another tome; rather, it pleads that we acknowledge our assertions regarding the “love of God” accord with the full breadth of the Tradition, which Balthasar canvasses well, and within a pretty tight compass.<br /><br />I shall let Karl Barth sign off for us: “The question is not whether God <i>can</i> save all men: what we have to oppose is the idea that this possibility implies the <i>impossibility</i> of its opposite.” The beautifully qualified logic of this sentence runs throughout his <i>Church Dogmatics</i>. For while his notion of the election of Jesus, the God-man, might project us towards universalism, yet his desire to honour the sheer authority of the Scriptures prevents him from avoiding the dire confessional weight of such Matthean texts re judgment that we have in particular, as well as Jn 17.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-11736091197646812902016-03-28T19:33:31.681+13:002016-03-28T19:33:31.681+13:00Excellent Ron!
I have also had good reports of Ris...Excellent Ron!<br />I have also had good reports of Risen, another film to watch at Eastertide.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-46327361563634338242016-03-28T19:27:58.567+13:002016-03-28T19:27:58.567+13:00Not entirely unconnected with your thread here, Pe...Not entirely unconnected with your thread here, Peter, may I recommend - at least to your local readers, the excellent film at thew Academy in Christchurch (which Diana and I saw this afternoon - Easter Nomday:<br /><br />'Francisco: The Man Behind the Pope'<br /><br />Noted, particularly, was the humble, loving and courageous openness to ordinary 'sinners' that has already characterised this current, 21st C. pontificate. Also there were stunning scenes of a Vatican Consistory.<br />We were both highly impressed with the film's quiet evangelism.<br />Christos Resurrexit!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-49336658744468644932016-03-28T16:23:02.252+13:002016-03-28T16:23:02.252+13:00CORRECTION: Brian, sifting your last comment I fin...CORRECTION: Brian, sifting your last comment I find in the sieve a response to Talbott on St Paul. It is, roughly, "Talbott has interpreted St Paul's understanding INCORRECTLY because he relied on texts that are rhetorically effective and therefore not as weighty as 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9. <br /><br />"I think he has wrongly interpreted 'all' in the two passages. It is not about being 'weighty' but saying appropriate things in context."<br /><br />Yes, that is one of many points at which the two schools tend to disagree about exegesis, and even textual criticism. In the locus of UR, systematic theologies also collide like galaxies, each displacing stars in the other as they pass. Karl Barth's doctrine of election often intervenes in those collisions as a third force. Finally, there are debates about the dogmatic definitions related to UR (eg the disputed canons of the Sixth Ecumenical Council). So far as I can see, the advocates on the two sides are evenly matched in knowledge, intelligence, etc. <br /><br />On universalism, the best interim report is that of Hans Urs von Balthasar. But as I said, it describes only the discovery that there was actually something to be worked out. Perhaps this is the place to mention that Stephen Holmes has done some quite interesting work to rehabilitate the Reformed understanding of Hell in the light of contemporary trinitarisn theology.<br /><br />Brian, if you wish to sit at the counsel table to argue against Talbott's or any other case for UR, then I hope that Peter gives you the chance with an OP someday. As the opponents of UR are outnumbered by the proponents at the moment, I am sure that you would be warmly welcomed. Personally, I am one of those sitting on the bench denying a motion for summary dismissal, and waiting to see how the arguments of the two sides develop. We should have a decision-- maybe even a dogmatic definition-- in about a century.<br /><br />Bowman WaltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70076709600410080482016-03-28T15:36:42.274+13:002016-03-28T15:36:42.274+13:00Alithos anesti, Father Ron!
Yes, I am glad to he...Alithos anesti, Father Ron! <br /><br />Yes, I am glad to hear that the prieat and people of SMAA Christchurch follow that glorious bell-custom. <br /><br />The Sabaite Typikon is not your ordo, I realise, but I still imagine you all solemnly processing to the beach with banners and towels and cross and chairs and vestments and swimming attire for a Great Blessing of ALL Waters on Bright Monday. <br /><br />May you have a blessed journey to Pentecost!<br /><br />Bowman WaltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-79147393270157795872016-03-28T11:24:38.573+13:002016-03-28T11:24:38.573+13:00"As for the many I know and love who do not f..."As for the many I know and love who do not follow Jesus, I can but say I do not know, and can only pray and trust God is more merciful than I." - Jean - <br /><br />Dear Jean, not a bad understanding to live by - especially since we all should by now know that we cannot 'save' ourselves - not matter how hard we try. Salvation in in the hands of a loving Redeemer. Thank God. Our task, as Christians is, not to deny the prospect of redemption to anyone, but to demonstrate its power in our own lives, by proclaiming the benefits accruing to its earnest and humble expectation. a personal note: While singing the 'Exsultet' the Song Praise to the Light of Christ in the Paschal Candle ceremony on Easter Eve, I noted, again, the passage: <br /><br />"O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, which ganied for us so great a Redeemer" <br /><br />A good Catholic reminder that perhaps signifies to us that even our sins can be re-cycled by God and something useful made out of them! This does not give us an excuse to sin, but it tells us quite plainly that God can actually deal with it. (In fact, has already done so!)<br /><br />And, for Bowman. NO, I do not have an ecclesiastical 'rattle' in my possession. Nor, I think, would I want to use it to replace the silence of the sanctuary bell during the Sacred Triduum. However, you may be glad to know that, at SMAA in Christchurch, we still follow the ancient tradition of ringing many bells at the Gloria of Holy Thursday. Then, no bell ringing until the Gloria of the Vigil Mass of Easter. Christos Anesti. Alleluia! Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-30991863429052203432016-03-28T10:50:14.901+13:002016-03-28T10:50:14.901+13:00And here we are, Christians in the West, arguing a...And here we are, Christians in the West, arguing about things like the autenticity of the 39 Arctiles, and exegesis, when in Iraq, people like Fr. Giles Fraser are wondering whether, or not Christianity will survive in ancient Iraq. From the thick of the danger zone in Iraq, here comes Fr. Giles' poignant comment:<br /><br />"Iraqi Christians have every right to place the protection of their families higher up the list of priorities than the historical continuity of Christianity in the Middle East. And I say this in full knowledge that this is holy week, when Christians are called to follow in the way of the cross. But going the way of the cross is not something academic in Mosul – Isis is still crucifying Christians. Yes, I’d probably run away too. So did the disciples, remember."<br /><br />Having walked 'The Way of The Criss' in Holy Week, and through the Great Triduum into the Light of the Resurrection celebrations, I cannot but reflect on what the Christians of Iraq and the Holy Land are suffering in the here and now. Theologising is surely a luxury for those, like ourselves, not facing the real threat of death. May God give us a sense of shame at our questioning the veracity of the faith of other people, whose lives are different from our own.<br /><br />O Saviour Jesus Christ, help us to understand the mystery of your suffering - alongside that of your disciples in today's Church, whose very existence is now under threat, for your Love's sake. Amen. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91566156102271178862016-03-28T10:39:11.950+13:002016-03-28T10:39:11.950+13:00"Brian, sifting your last comment I find in t..."Brian, sifting your last comment I find in the sieve a response to Talbott on St Paul. It is, roughly, "Talbott has interpreted St Paul's understanding correctly because he relied on texts that are rhetorically effective and therefore not as weighty as 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9." "<br /><br />No, not my view at all. I think he has wrongly interpreted 'all' in the two passages. It is not about being 'weighty' but saying appropriate things in context.BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-49509580364211311782016-03-28T09:23:28.946+13:002016-03-28T09:23:28.946+13:00And, with respect to "liberal religionists,&q...And, with respect to "liberal religionists," Brian, please note a certain asymmetry. To say that God's deepest will for his creation is a scheme of rewards and punishments is plainly to make a socially conservative choice. This is especially the case insofar as the punishment is, not a purgative one that transforms the sinner, but a strictly retributive one that assigns him to an eternal cosmic prison. That such a heavenly social order is the Feuerbachian mirror of a certain earthly one once contributed much to its plausibility.<br /><br />But to say instead that God's deepest will is to defeat his enemies, release sinners from bondage, and renew his creation is just as plainly not a theologically liberal one. Punishment that purifies the sinner as fire refines gold is transformative rather than merely retributive, but it is punishment nonetheless. There is probably no road from Schliermacher, Harnack, and Bultmann to the retrieval of apocalypticism implicit in UR. And as a matter of history, much of the impetus for rethinking the eschatology of the late medieval West has been the recognition that many of the fathers and the Church in the East have framed eschatology differently. <br /><br />Now it is true that this poses a question to evangelicals: should they resituate the insights of the Reformers in the whole tradition of the undivided Church, or should they double down in their defense of the pre-Reformation Latin eschatology that the Reformation as a whole took for granted? But that question has been posed as well by most other movements of retrieval from the New Perspective on Paul, to the burgeoning research on *union with Christ*, to readings of the NT that emphasise the apostles' roots in second temple Jewish apocalyptic. (A blogger for The Gospel Coalition a few years ago counted eighteen different evangelical movements for retrieval from patristic and medieval tradition.) All have been challenging for those most committed to a certain Reformed scholasticism, but then Anglicanism itself has been such a challenge since the debates that reduced the Forty Two Articles to just Thirty Nine that include Article XXXI. (You may recall that Warfield in his famous Plan of Salvation chart could not bring himself to class Anglicans among the Reformed.) So in choosing a way at the fork above, an Anglican evangelical stays nearest to his own tradition in *resituating the insights of the Reformers in the whole tradition of the undivided Church*. <br /><br />For evangelicals, such faithfulness may bring a bonus. UR implicitly concerns all four sides of the Bebbington Quadrilateral: Bible, Cross, Conversion, and Action. If careful investigation and critique of UR over the next century retrieves nuances of these themes from scripture, it may also light up paths of preaching and service unseen today. <br /><br />Bowman WaltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-42996339021605107542016-03-28T09:22:49.996+13:002016-03-28T09:22:49.996+13:00"His exegesis of two evidently rhetorical pas..."His exegesis of two evidently rhetorical passages (in which Paul contrasts 'all in Adam' and 'all in Christ') doesn't stack up against Paul's own words in 2 Thes 1.8-9..." <br /><br />Brian, sifting your last comment I find in the sieve a response to Talbott on St Paul. It is, roughly, "Talbott has interpreted St Paul's understanding correctly because he relied on texts that are rhetorically effective and therefore not as weighty as 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9." Fair enough. Obviously Talbott would reply by shifting the weight of that contrapposto onto the other foot. He would say something like, "Provided that one does not misconstrue *eternal* (Greek *aionion*), and keeps the Creator's revealed intention to perfect his creation in mind, it is clear that minatory passages such as 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 supply details that round out the overall Pauline picture of universal reconciliation (UR) with pastorally effective reassurance that the forces of evil will be defeated." If assessing UR is simply a matter of giving some texts more weight than others-- not my view-- then let the reader decide. Which is the St Paul you have known for years doing-- clothing a grand scheme of rewards and punishments in appealing rhetoric, or explaining that God is putting the world to rights and evildoers cannot stop him. <br /><br />http://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm<br /><br />Bowman WaltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89250810351364807172016-03-27T21:51:04.239+13:002016-03-27T21:51:04.239+13:00"But of course the only way to judge how well..."But of course the only way to judge how well Talbott, or any other exegete, has seen the sense and meaning of the scriptures is to dispassionately compare the text to the exegesis, and promptly adjust our views to what that comparison reveals."<br /><br />But not to cherry-pick or 'to expound one place of Scripture, that it be repugnant to another' (Article XX). His exegesis of two evidently rhetorical passages (in which Paul contrasts 'all in Adam' and 'all in Christ') doesn't stack up against Paul's own words in 2 Thes 1.8-9, nor the words of Christ in Matt 10 ('Fear him who can cast body and soul into Gehenna') and Matt 24 or the teaching of Hebrews ('It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God') or Revelation (passim). Literary usage isn't the same as a legal document; in fact, there is nothing in the NT that should be read like a modern statute.<br />The Reformers taught the 'analogia fidei' and the Articles of Religion reflected this.<br />If you atomise the NT text (as liberal religionists do - as when writing 'church reports'), you can find pretty much what you want. BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-45184832048271272112016-03-27T16:54:20.602+13:002016-03-27T16:54:20.602+13:00"A good rule of thumb is that if you have to ..."A good rule of thumb is that if you have to use exegetical tergiversations to reach your conclusion "from the Bible", then it's almost certainly wrong."<br /><br />Whether good or simply lazy, that is the very rule that inspires Thomas Talbott in, for example, his 1999 discussion of universal reconciliation in St Paul here--<br /><br />http://www.thomastalbott.com/pdf/chapter5.pdf<br /><br />But of course the only way to judge how well Talbott, or any other exegete, has seen the sense and meaning of the scriptures is to dispassionately compare the text to the exegesis, and promptly adjust our views to what that comparison reveals. To do anything else with a disputed claim is to *derp*--<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/n5ddlqr<br /><br />And do not even the pagans see our duty to resist *derpitude*?--<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/zy6qxec<br /><br />Bowman Walton<br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63327814898522922382016-03-27T04:05:48.877+13:002016-03-27T04:05:48.877+13:00Alithos anesti, Brian!
I hope that all here expe...Alithos anesti, Brian! <br /><br />I hope that all here experience at least one Pascha in Greece.<br /><br />Bowman WaltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-30356523193275368622016-03-27T03:45:49.090+13:002016-03-27T03:45:49.090+13:00Brian, you keep good company! It seems from his OP...Brian, you keep good company! It seems from his OP at the link above that Robin Parry is an Anglican now. We should remember Fr Kimel in our prayers. <br /><br />Bowman WaltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com