tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post2760548470146133598..comments2024-03-29T06:58:28.383+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Aside from going to heaven or hell, the next most important life issue is accommodation on earthPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-26097927805723624652013-11-12T21:08:28.863+13:002013-11-12T21:08:28.863+13:00"You see, this is why it is pointless to argu..."You see, this is why it is pointless to argue with you. You don't listen. You don't answer."<br /><br />So why do you bother? I fall into the same trap as well.<br />I suppose Peter has his reasons for including Ron's ruminations, but like the peace of God, it passeth all understanding.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74392785253891646152013-11-12T07:48:36.961+13:002013-11-12T07:48:36.961+13:00FRS
It's amazing how everything seems to come...FRS<br /><br /><i>It's amazing how everything seems to come down to politics with some people.</i><br /><br />You see, this is why it is pointless to argue with you. You don't listen. You don't answer. You impose your own expectations on the arguments of another so that you can make the point you want to make. <b><i>Every post I have made on this thread has been an attempt to remove this discussion from politics.</i></b> It is not possible to read the English language and come to any other conclusion. <br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41145813544973726082013-11-11T22:35:50.621+13:002013-11-11T22:35:50.621+13:00That question has a very easy answer, I suspect, R...That question has a very easy answer, I suspect, Ron: he (or his successor) will make the change when NZ ceases to become a soft point of entry for people whose real aim in life is to become Aussies and not Kiwis.<br /><br />Put another way: do you want us to have a tougher immigration policy here so that our family members living in Oz can have an easier time over there?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-30276209559342204542013-11-11T22:06:29.316+13:002013-11-11T22:06:29.316+13:00Speaking of Social Justice and 'The Lucky Coun...Speaking of Social Justice and 'The Lucky Country': when is Tony Abbott going to do justice about New Zealanders who have contributed to the Australian economy and paid their taxes in Australia but have no access to social welfare, nor the vote? Now that's a bit close to home for some, I guess.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-26063126474834803702013-11-11T22:05:25.799+13:002013-11-11T22:05:25.799+13:00Hi Ron
I think Carl might agree with me that every...Hi Ron<br />I think Carl might agree with me that everything is politics!<br /><br />Politics is inescapable for anyone who avoids being a hermit!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91005386593919918322013-11-11T21:55:52.361+13:002013-11-11T21:55:52.361+13:00"How may I separate a socially just policy fr..."How may I separate a socially just policy from the latest Left-wing policy du jour?" - carl jacobs -<br /><br />My suggestion? Just check and see if it is embraced by the latest right-wing policy du jour. Then you will have a pretty good idea that injustice is around the corner.<br /><br />It's amazing how everything seems to come down to politics with some people.<br />Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-59262223426555840362013-11-11T19:40:29.651+13:002013-11-11T19:40:29.651+13:00Hi Carl,
1. This week's epistle reading in the...Hi Carl,<br />1. This week's epistle reading in the common lectionary is 2 Thessalonians 3:6-13 talks about those who do not work not eating. I suggest a biblical principle then would be that a fair wage enables a worker to eat. At least that would be a starting point for discussion, giving that other needs, for accommodation etc are in the picture. (For the record, I do not think a market economy is necessarily unjust nor unbiblical).<br /><br />2. I suggest that social justice includes the way in which society both provides health services and enables access to those health services. You will be well aware of striking differences across countries in respect of health services/social justice: e.g. the debate over Obamacare (or should I say the many debates over its varying faults, foibles and shortcomings?) strikes a Kiwi like me as very odd! We are used to a public health hospital system funded by tax (doctors and medicines partially funded by tax) with options on private health care paid for by users. If our government said we were moving to an 'Obamacare' system we would howl at the socially unjust proposal!<br /><br />I would understand advocates of access to abortion services as seeing this as a matter of society providing healthcare and thus a matter of social justice. <br /><br />The question then, as you are aware, is whether seeking an abortion is 'healthcare' in the same way as, say, seeking an appendictomy (spelling?)?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3982820875364622122013-11-11T19:27:08.729+13:002013-11-11T19:27:08.729+13:00Thanks Martin (and St Martin!)
When I started rea...Thanks Martin (and St Martin!)<br /><br />When I started reading your comment I thought you were going to tell us about the over-heating housing market in Sydney ... :)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-9120706252616801012013-11-11T19:19:55.061+13:002013-11-11T19:19:55.061+13:00OK. So let's ask a couple of clarifying ques...OK. So let's ask a couple of clarifying questions. Understand I am trying to keep an open mind here. I am not rejecting the idea. But also understand that I briefly flirted with political involvement in the 90's and for a conservative like me that meant interaction with the Christian coalition. That experience was enough to send me right back out the door. I understand first hand the conflation of right wing politics with Christianity. I am not going to be sympathetic to its mirror opposite error. So then:<br /><br />1. What is the biblical definition of 'fair' so that we may have a basis for determining a fair wage. <br /><br />2. Social justice advocates say all the time that 'access to reproductive health services' (ie abortion) is a social justice issue. Is this true or false? If it is true, then what biblical principle underlies the claim? If it is false, how do I separate this claim of social justice from a legitimate claim? <br /><br />And just so you know. If you try to justify abortion it terms if social justice, you will demolish the concept of social justice in my eyes and confirm everything I already think about it. <br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70025857442054628582013-11-11T19:02:46.061+13:002013-11-11T19:02:46.061+13:00On a blog thread that began on housing matters, it...On a blog thread that began on housing matters, it seems appropriate to add a contribution from yet another Martin on today's feast of Saint Martin of Tours. Famous for the story of cutting his cloak in half to give shelter to a beggar, St Martin is also an important figure in the introduction of monasticism to the West. Let us join our pryaers and actions with his in solidarity with those in need.<br />Martin of SJKS SydneyMartin Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05048711434154401076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63527384614682470762013-11-11T18:32:56.845+13:002013-11-11T18:32:56.845+13:00Hi Carl
1. I agree with Tim
2. I am not sure that ...Hi Carl<br />1. I agree with Tim<br />2. I am not sure that justice-via-the-Bible is different to justice-via-"left-wing" if we are talking about seeking fair wages for a fair days work, protection of workers from dangerous practices, non-discriminatory laws and the like. This both coheres with justice talk in the Bible, with the law of Moses summarised in 'love thy neighbour as thyself', as well as with the intent of and principles underlying the Mosaic law as it sought to order Israelite society in a just manner.<br />3. There is an argument to be had about whether God's justice towards us is focused on our evil or on our living unjustly (which is evil).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-71555398273436040932013-11-11T18:17:32.548+13:002013-11-11T18:17:32.548+13:00This is not an exhaustive answer to Carl's que...This is not an exhaustive answer to Carl's question, but I notice that a lot of occurrences of the word 'justice' or 'judging righteously' in the Old Testament seem to occur in close proximity to teaching about defending the widow and the orphan, not oppressing the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner and the poor, defending the rights of the poor and needy. So the Old Testament texts on justice seem to lay special emphasis on our responsibility to protect the vulnerable in society.Tim Chestertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01274825116843753131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-53320658443265322472013-11-11T14:44:09.346+13:002013-11-11T14:44:09.346+13:00That's fine, Peter, but it doesn't answer ...That's fine, Peter, but it doesn't answer the question. I could have provided that answer. What I want to know is this: "How may I know if an action or policy is socially just?" And this: "How may I separate a socially just policy from the latest Left-wing policy du jour?" If there is an actual Scriptural concept in there somewhere, then you should be able to answer these questions. Because right now all the phrase means to me is left-wing agitprop.<br /><br />Btw. I think your definition of justice is wrong. When we say God must punish sin because He is just, we don't mean that He deals men in a fair and equitable manner. We mean He must punish evil. <br /><br />I have my own (suitably progressive) definition of social justice. It means to provide men the material and legal ability to actualize their autonomous desires. That definition unifies all the threads of the subject as it is typically presented. Your job is to provide an adequate substitute that is rooted in Scripture. Because my definition has nothing to do with Scripture at all.<br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8956999217147079432013-11-11T13:39:10.052+13:002013-11-11T13:39:10.052+13:00Hi Carl
I suggest 'justice' concerns our d...Hi Carl<br />I suggest 'justice' concerns our dealings with one another on a fair and equitable basis, where equity includes one human being (or group of humans) treating another human being (or group of humans) on the basis that we equally share in the dignity of being human, created by God in God's image.<br /><br />Such dealings could include a wide range of matters from a legal contract between two people (e.g. buying/selling a house) through to responding to a murder or theft so that justice would include a fair trial of the accused and fair consequences when a guilty verdict is determined.<br /><br />'Social justice' focuses discussion, concerns and action re human relationships on matters not connected with criminal process or confined to specific matters such as a business contract but involving human beings in society. Examples, as per this thread, include housing, employment, schooling, health services, aged care and the like.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-17412128796476714212013-11-11T12:25:02.579+13:002013-11-11T12:25:02.579+13:00Yet another thread on 'social justice' wit...Yet another thread on 'social justice' without anyone bothering to define 'social justice.' Why does this not surprise me. <br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41784219168571105052013-11-11T09:43:58.105+13:002013-11-11T09:43:58.105+13:00Thanks Martin.
How indeed do we change any of this...Thanks Martin.<br />How indeed do we change any of this?<br />I suggest one particular Christian contributions.<br /><br />- Challenging greed (e.g. housing markets 'heat up' as people are even moderately greedy for a slightly better price for their house; for one more house; for a house in a better part of town, etc). It has struck me that greed can also be for material comfort, e.g. the rise of desire for an 'ensuite' which now seems to uniformly lead to new houses in new sub-divisions having such luxuries as a requisite but with the consequence that the price of a 'standard' new house on what was formerly vacant land of (perhaps) no great value is well out of reach of many workers on the average wage.<br /><br />Finally, on what could otherwise be a very long list, there is the 'greed' of those associated with the distribution of land for housing. It is tempting to blame individuals/corporations such as property developers or institutions such as parliament and city councils (i.e. controllers of town/country planning). Perhaps we could simply raise the question (as many around NZ are doing): could land be made available more cheaply than currently, with some new thinking on the part of those currently interfacing on land usage/availability?<br />Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-45804463489087340822013-11-11T09:20:45.822+13:002013-11-11T09:20:45.822+13:00I feel ennui rather than energy on this matter. Fo...I feel ennui rather than energy on this matter. Forty years ago we argued over (and lost) the battle over the expansion of abortion, once again presented as a matter of 'justice'. Maybe 300,000+ abortions later in NZ, I have never thought my Christian position on that was wrong. <br />zedeqah / dikaiosune / iustitia is a broad term in Scripture and Christian moral theology - it's a terrible mistake to allow Marxists to frame the debate.<br /><br />But if you want to make the case that:<br />1. NZ's housing stock is over-priced;<br />2. too many homes are poor quality, cold, leaky;<br />3. the NZ economy is a high-cost and low wages one;<br />4. Maori are faring badly on just about any socio-economic indicator you care to mention;<br />then you'll get no argument from me. <br />But the real questions are: how do you change any of this?<br />Poverty isn't inevitable; but the road out of poverty is never easy. It is useful to consider: who is prospering fairly today, and what's their (open) secret?<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-23942351437379969602013-11-11T08:40:04.576+13:002013-11-11T08:40:04.576+13:00But, Bosco, some commenters here constantly tell r...But, Bosco, some commenters here constantly tell readers that homosexuality is an issue of justice (and nothing more or less)!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-67612291952872757632013-11-11T08:21:35.540+13:002013-11-11T08:21:35.540+13:00Fascinating how quickly a discussion about justice...Fascinating how quickly a discussion about justice turns to what Anglicans <i>really</i> have energy for: homosexuality.<br /><br />Blessings<br /><br />Boscoliturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87616145081245232372013-11-10T22:23:06.399+13:002013-11-10T22:23:06.399+13:00"In God alone do I trust! God alone knows the..."In God alone do I trust! God alone knows the 'depths of the heart'"<br /><br />The servants of Iuppiter Optimus Maximus, the devotees of Brahma, the bodhisattvas of the Amida Buddha, the votaries of Ahura Mazda, and the slaves of Allah passionately agree!<br /><br />Martinus Pius - sola fide, solo ipso<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-42485961264189397572013-11-10T22:17:01.313+13:002013-11-10T22:17:01.313+13:00"I think you may be confusing homosexuality w..."I think you may be confusing homosexuality with paedophilia - a common misunderstanding on the part of moral rigorists."<br /><br />No, the confusion does not lie with me, and you gave precisely the evasive non-answer I thought you would. You don't seem to know anything about the psychogenesis of sexual attraction to children, otherwise you would know it has some innate, genetic component, tied in with environmental factors. And yet you would condemn people born with CSA to their misery and loneliness.<br /><br />"One is morally neutral, the other's activity is against the law and morally reprehensible."<br /><br />You're evidently not aware of the confusion and contradiction in your words. Who or what defines "moral neutrality" or "moral reprehensibility"? You? The current opinion of the post-Christian west? You can't say the Bible because you reject large portions of that wrong, because you do at least know that Bible consistently takes a different view from you.<br />This is why people get frustrated trying to communicate with you, Ron. Aside from commenting unkindly on the motives and attitudes of people you have never met - something no one, least of all a priest, should do - you don't realise that your own beliefs are at base contradictory and confused. You do care for people, in your own way, but talking with you is like trying to herd cats, an avocation I will never succeed in.<br />ave atque vale<br /><br />Martinos Poimenandres, (ouk Poimenailoures)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70699714025446596562013-11-10T21:07:51.579+13:002013-11-10T21:07:51.579+13:00I've just noticved this gem, from Janice, on t...I've just noticved this gem, from Janice, on this thread:<br /><br />" "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer 17:9)"<br /><br />And this is precisely why, Janice, one cannot always trust the self-authenticated experts - or, indeed, anyone who professes to be 'the oracle'.<br /><br />In God alone do I trust! God alone knows the 'depths of the heart'!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-56674629866491108712013-11-10T09:31:58.630+13:002013-11-10T09:31:58.630+13:00"2. if it was genetic, what would that say ab..."2. if it was genetic, what would that say about the moral character of paedophilic behaviour?<br />If Mr Smith has any expertise on this matter, he should share it as well." - Commenter - <br /><br />I think you may be confusing homosexuality with paedophilia - a common misunderstanding on the part of moral rigorists. <br /><br />One is morally neutral, the other's activity is against the law and morally reprehensible. Remember, we are still talking of aetiology, not behaviour! (or, at least, I am!)<br />Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-320470492149407042013-11-10T06:20:36.217+13:002013-11-10T06:20:36.217+13:00It is all Greek to me, Martin.
"I have not m...It is all Greek to me, Martin.<br /><br />"I have not made a connection between causation and morality."<br /><br />I have no idea (in the scientific sense) what 'the cause of paedophili emotions' is. Anecdotally, I observe that some (many?) paedophiles claim to have themselves been abused as children. (I also observer that some (few?) claim not to have been abused as children).<br /><br />There is no moral character to paedophilic behaviour, whether or not it is ever proven to be emotions caused by genes being put into immoral behavioural effect.<br /><br />Don't worry, Martin, it is not the first time it has struck me that cause does not equal moral justification!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-46835108826557601172013-11-10T01:18:11.924+13:002013-11-10T01:18:11.924+13:00Now you've gone from being Olympian to Delphic...Now you've gone from being Olympian to Delphic. I haven't a clue what your response means. <br />What I asked was:<br />1. what did you think was the cause of paedophilic emotions - genetic, environmental or a combination of the two?<br />2. if it was genetic, what would that say about the moral character of paedophilic behaviour?<br />If Mr Smith has any expertise on this matter, he should share it as well.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com