tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post2993592663448832080..comments2024-03-29T06:58:28.383+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: What was the event of the resurrection?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-48012043109771155502011-12-15T13:08:55.963+13:002011-12-15T13:08:55.963+13:00Now; why am I not surprised, Ron, in your case ......Now; why am I not surprised, Ron, in your case ...? Yet some others ...?!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-22238016618854781442011-12-14T20:58:57.052+13:002011-12-14T20:58:57.052+13:00I'm sorry, Bryden, but reading your thesis on ...I'm sorry, Bryden, but reading your thesis on this thread, above, just gives me a blinding head-ache - not something I need during the Advent season of hope and expectation.<br /><br />No doubt others can mine your comments for some meaningful content. My Franciscan simplicity, and sheer lack of time (tempus fugit!) bars me from unravelling your no-doubt stunning explication of the Easter miracle. All I know is that Jesus died, rose from the dead, ascended to God's right hand, and will one day come in glory to take with him all who have believed in Him. That's good enough for me.<br /><br />Felice Navidad!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10354456984966324252011-12-14T17:36:11.034+13:002011-12-14T17:36:11.034+13:00Ah yes; Wolfhart Pannenberg’s great attempts to re...Ah yes; Wolfhart Pannenberg’s great attempts to re-read history through the lense of the revelation of the Resurrection - where that event has itself direct correlates with history as we presently know it and yet also initiates the new creation. [I’m not sure we can slice this up as neatly as pre-Ascension/post-Ascension/reigning or not yet reigning, etc. The NT witnesses - Hebrews, the Fourth Gospel, Luke-Acts, Paul (e.g. 1 Cor 15, Colossians) - would seem to be all approaching this essential temporal enigma from various directions, even as there is considerable necessary overlap as well.]<br />The significance/upshot for me of all this line of thinking is just this: my experience of the Risen Jesus, who is in continuity-yet-discontinuity with the man who got dust in between his toes around the shores of Lake Galilee, transforms me (in this life, little by little, as the hope of glory within) ONLY BECAUSE he has <i><b>already objectively transformed the cosmos</b></i>, which transformation includes the very redemption of time’s elusive passing. Although not as some Platonic Eternal Ideal (<i>pace</i> Augustine), but rather as the one whose faithfulness (echoes here of Robert Jenson) now embraces past present and future, in the light of his being the triune God’s true and full embodiment.<br />Empty therefore the resurrection of any empirical correlates (as in many a modern existentialist manner or postmodern Gnosticism) and everything - quite literally, everything - gets lost!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72506745996591672732011-12-14T10:46:46.029+13:002011-12-14T10:46:46.029+13:00Thank you, Martin, for your muted concession for a...Thank you, Martin, for your muted concession for age and experience. However, your 'natural building blocks' of the propensity for heterosexual families to propagate even more children (without the inhibiting factor of contraception) will, sadly, bring the end of the world even more close. Simple study of the biological implications of unbridled heterosexual fecundity is rapidly becoming one of the most urgent and greatest threats to earth's ecological sustainability.<br /><br />And yet, if we believe you, other forms of sexual expression of human love - which threaten no-one, except perhaps the horses - are outside of God's provision for those human beings whose natural function is just to 'be different'<br /><br />Maybe, if the world runs out of food, water and other resources to sustain human life - because of the burgeoning population growth, God might allow us eunuchs to enjoy the 'natural' resources He has given us to stimulate the charism of human comfort we can give to one another - without robbing heterosexuals of their right to do the same.<br /><br />'The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies never come to an end. New every morning, new every morning - great is your faithfulness, O Lord; great is your faithfulness". <br /><br />Even so, Come Lord Jesus!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54024598928279271802011-12-14T08:05:16.673+13:002011-12-14T08:05:16.673+13:00Let me add that I feel no rancor toward Ron. Despi...Let me add that I feel no rancor toward Ron. Despite his constant and ill-informed barbs against evangelicals and catholics, I am sure he has a warm heart - although his ideas are woefully wrong and harmful in the long run. This is clear from the following excerpt from a forthcoming article in Touchstone (Jan/Feb 2012) by Douglas Farrow, erstwhile Anglican now a Roman Catholic, on the folly of "same sex marriage", which people like Tobias Haller would foist on the world:<br /><br />"In Rerum Novarum Leo XIII rightly described the family as “a society very small ... but none the less a true society, and one older than any State,” with “rights and duties peculiar to itself which are quite independent of the State.” This society, “founded more immediately in nature,” is what the Universal Declaration has in mind when it speaks in article 16 of the family. The family’s status as “natural” – that controversial adjective is deployed only in this one specific article – allows it a certain priority over civil society and the state. The latter share an obligation to protect the family, but the family is not at their disposal.<br /><br />Same-sex marriage dispenses with all of that, however. By excising sexual difference, with its generative power, it deprives itself of any direct connection to nature. The unit it creates rests on human choice, as does that created by marriage. But whether monogamous, polygamous, or polyamorous, it is a closed unit that reduces to human choice, rather than engaging choice with nature; and its lack of a generative dimension means that it cannot be construed as a fundamental building block. <br /><br />Institutionally, then, it is nothing more than a legal construct. It roots run no deeper than positive law. It therefore cannot present itself to the state as the bearer of independent rights and responsibilities, as older or more basic than the state itself. Indeed, it is a creature of the state, generated by the state’s assumption of the power of invention or re-definition. Which changes everything."<br /><br />Ron's unreflective sentimentalism and his anti-historical approach to theology show why he so signally fails to reflect catholic thought.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10493738738100961982011-12-14T07:39:46.342+13:002011-12-14T07:39:46.342+13:00Polycarp still had four years on you, Ron!
Ad mul...Polycarp still had four years on you, Ron!<br /><br />Ad multos annos.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-53794790267355294922011-12-13T22:11:55.914+13:002011-12-13T22:11:55.914+13:00Well, Martin, I've only been a baptized Anglic...Well, Martin, I've only been a baptized Anglican for 82 years, a Franciscan Brother for 3 years, and an Anglican priest for 30 years so maybe you will acknowledge the experience of all of that, in your assessment of my understanding of Christ of the Gospel. Enthusiasm is no match for experience.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-24493880434333276822011-12-13T10:32:26.277+13:002011-12-13T10:32:26.277+13:00I am not an "Anglican", Ron. I am an Ang...I am not an "Anglican", Ron. I am an Anglican of more than 35 years standing and have ministered in numerous churches and colleges.<br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-15915622488943806942011-12-13T09:20:59.350+13:002011-12-13T09:20:59.350+13:00Your 'findings' on this site, Martin, I am...Your 'findings' on this site, Martin, I am not able to take too seriously. How long have you been an 'Anglican'?Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63847511350061062222011-12-12T20:37:55.090+13:002011-12-12T20:37:55.090+13:00It's Pannenberg, not PannenbUrg.
Have you ever...It's Pannenberg, not PannenbUrg.<br />Have you ever read his work? Or heard of him? "Schmanneburg", I suppose, is a dismissive comment.<br />I find your fideism strange and decidedly un-Anglican.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-58654582166450005992011-12-11T21:59:48.305+13:002011-12-11T21:59:48.305+13:00Is your question regarding Paul's experience o...Is your question regarding Paul's experience of the resurrection about what the phrase "as to one abnormally born" means? Paul seems to acknowledge in this phrase that there is a difference between his vision of the resurrected Christ and those of the other witnesses. Is it more complicated than to say it was a post-ascension appearance rather than a pre-ascension appearance? There are plenty of questions about the pre-ascension Jesus (why did he still have marks from crucifixion, was he in heaven or not yet, was he reigning over God's kingdom?). But in the end all the witnesses, including Paul, had a life-changing encounter with the risen Jesus that convinced them he was alive, real and had commissioned them to declare that Good News.<br /><br />It's interesting that the apostles don't ask the resurrected Jesus about why he has to leave (cf before his death), or ask him to stay with them. They know, possibly from the appearance of his resurrection body and his miracles (e.g. appearing in a locked room), that he doesn't belong on the earth anymore. His teaching about the sending of the Holy Spirit when he goes away probably has a role here, also.Andrew Reidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89120043858736847512011-12-10T23:37:02.501+13:002011-12-10T23:37:02.501+13:00The important question for you, Martin, might be: ...The important question for you, Martin, might be: Have you, personally, experienced the power and witness of the resurrected Christ in your life? This is the testing point of faith in Jesus risen from the dead - not the written testimony of Pannenburg, Schmanneburg or anyone else. Have YOU met the Risen Christ? <br /><br />He is as near as the nearest celebration of the Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. That may be as near as you will get to His risen, ascended glory on earth.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-36310226644234309432011-12-10T09:15:07.709+13:002011-12-10T09:15:07.709+13:00"It was a conviction that Jesus as the person..."It was a conviction that Jesus as the person Jesus, not as a ghostly appearance resembling the pre-crucified Jesus"<br />Not sure what you mean by "person". Most Jews in first century believed in post-mortem survival of the soul. The issue was really to do with the *body. An empty tomb proves nothing of itself (a body could be stolen), but when it is coordinated with visions and the two lines of evidence are independent, then you are dealing with an event in history - as Pannenberg argued all those years ago.<br />It was the revisionist Anglican archbishop Peter Carnley who denied the bodily resurrection, arguing that the Gospel narratives just historicized the Pauline vision. Wrong on this, as in so much.<br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-58397975874583330762011-12-09T22:46:16.160+13:002011-12-09T22:46:16.160+13:00However he comprehended Christ's resurrection ...However he comprehended Christ's resurrection from the dead, it sure made a difference to Saul-become-Paul. I guess the Resurrection of Jesus has to actually be experienced in the life of a person for faith to follow.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com