tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post3280742952962602329..comments2024-03-29T06:58:28.383+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Abuse of languagePeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40567024717924067512014-02-28T10:43:40.290+13:002014-02-28T10:43:40.290+13:00With regard to "capitalism cures poverty"...With regard to "capitalism cures poverty" or "the general virtue of capitalism over other forms of economic development," China under Mao showed the most dramatic improvements in life expectancy, infant mortality and in history. Here's one illustrative quote from research done at Stanford University:<br /><br />“Indeed, despite the higher death rates associated with the Great Leap Famine of 1959-1961, China’s growth in life expectancy from 35~40 in 1949 to 65.5 in 1980 ranks as the most rapid sustained increase in documented global history. These earlier health improvements and growth of the working-age population contributed to China’s unprecedented economic growth for the past quarter century.”<br />http://iis-db.stanford.edu/pubs/23743/AHPPwp_29.pdf<br /><br />Similar gains happened in Soviet Russia. Both nations went from feudalism to industrialisation in a few short decades and conditions improved dramatically compared to other similar countries under Western colonial rule and capitalist development (e.g. India).<br /><br />But of course that is not to say that Maoist or Soviet communism is beyond criticism, worth emulating, or even generally praiseworthy. The same is true for capitalism, despite its own significant improvements in standard of living.<br /><br />It seems that it's most accurate to say that industrialisation is what has reduced poverty and improved standards of living (arguably faster with communist industrialisation). But industrialisation has also come with significant costs in oppression, corruption, alienation, destruction of community and tradition, and wealth/power being unfairly and unhealthily concentrated in a few hands (which has looked differently depending on whether it's capitalist or communist industrialisation). Not to mention the colossal environmental costs that we're only just beginning to experience.Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13619381698748105116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-37078394829644754972014-02-16T22:22:28.658+13:002014-02-16T22:22:28.658+13:00Okay Andrei, so now Croatia and Bosnia just before...Okay Andrei, so now Croatia and Bosnia just before the war of independence were happy non-political entities, full of contented primitives, who were led astray by evil "rabble-rousers"!<br /><br />That doesn't wash. Slovenia and Croatia had been pressing for independence and democratic rule since the 1980s. And if they really had been led astray by the few, one would expect to see some sign of it afterwards. <br /><br />I appreciate that the ethnic serbs were a minority in Croatia and Bosnia, but the real problem is that most of those ethnic serbs did not want to fight to stop Croatia and Bosnia leaving Yugoslavia. The ones who did want to fight to stop it were actually quite small. So whether at the ballot box or militarily, they weren't going to win. <br /><br />"Slovenia could leave easily because the overwhelming majority of the population identified themselves as Slovenes and perhaps also felt they had an affinity with Western Europe."<br /><br />There were a number of reasons for Slovenian success, including (a) that the Yugoslav Army was mainly officered by Serbs, so the Slovenian (and Croatian and Bosnian) people felt little affinity for it; and (b) the Yugoslav army was plagued by desertions. The reality is that even many Serbs saw little point in fighting to keep Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia in a union where they did not want to be. It was only a relatively small number of Yugoslav imperialists who were prepared to pulverise most of Yugoslavia in an attempt to keep it together. <br /><br />The Croatian Army started off, if anything, in worse state than the Yugoslav Army. But it had a much greater level of popular support which combined with weaponry from overseas plus captured weaponry soon shifted the balance of advantage. <br /><br />"In fact there is a new European Empire the EU and neither Croatia nor Slovenia are truly independent, they have surrendered much of their sovereignty to the EU which is slowly working its way through the Balkans gobbling them up."<br /><br />You obviously have no idea how Europe works. <br /><br />"And it is also working on gathering in Ukraine, in these days of trial"<br /><br />The EU doesn't have to "work on gathering in" anyone. Russia has proved itself so untrustworthy and self-interested that countries are lining up to enter into agreements with the EU. It is remarkable that this is happening even in the Ukraine where many of the citizens are of Russian origin and happy to have ties with Russia, but not at the expense of foregoing a trade agreement with the EU. They can see from their neighbours what trade with Europe means. <br /><br />The answer for the Russians is simple - treat other countries well and they will WANT to deal with you. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54972396982953728372014-02-16T16:24:28.342+13:002014-02-16T16:24:28.342+13:00I didn't read all 50 comments, so someone has ...I didn't read all 50 comments, so someone has probably said this already, but:<br />This is no different to how the history of colonisation (which in many cases is accurately described as genocide), war, mass murder, mass theft, segregation, inequality, exploitation, environmental degradation etc is whitewashed in e.g. the US, Australia, NZ.<br /><br />In fact, the Winter Olympics' description of the USSR isn't even as bad as that, because at least it's not whitewashing and legitimating a regime that still exists.Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13619381698748105116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-27384927412656858042014-02-15T11:32:49.822+13:002014-02-15T11:32:49.822+13:00Kurt,
The subject of the topic thread was the Sov...Kurt,<br /><br />The subject of the topic thread was the Soviet Union, and Peter's concern over the minimizing of that horror.<br /><br />So in that context “Let's face it, revolutions can be messy things" reads exactly as I assumed. If that was not your intent, then the fault is your lack of clarity.<br /><br />As to "proportion" please, your first ever response to one of my posts was so over the top (because I quoted Francis Schaeffer) that I wondered if I had stumbled onto the Democratic Underground site by mistake. Not to mention, "Redneckistan."<br /><br />What may be proportional to those on the far left, may not be to others.<br /><br />Goodbye and God bless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-29087865427382843512014-02-15T03:32:35.186+13:002014-02-15T03:32:35.186+13:00Shawn, what I wrote (in context) was the following...Shawn, what I wrote (in context) was the following:<br /><br />“Let's face it, revolutions can be messy things. They are full of contradictions. That's why revolution should be resorted to only when all other methods of change have been tried and have failed.”<br /><br />You wrote: “So, one simple question. How can the deaths of hundreds of millions of people, mostly the poor and powerless, be described as just a bit ‘messy’?”<br /><br />This is a distortion of what I wrote, Shawn. Nowhere did I discuss the deaths of “hundreds of millions of people” let alone “describe” their deaths as “just a bit ‘messy’.” In fact, your figure for casualties in revolutions is also a gross historical distortion in, and of, itself. Even the monsters Hitler and Stalin were not responsible for the deaths of “hundreds of millions of people. “ If your point is that, in revolutions, the innocent often suffer, then I would agree with you. That is one reason why I wrote “revolution should be resorted to only when all other methods of change have been tried and have failed.”<br /><br />I respectfully suggest that you learn to cultivate a sense of proportion when you debate issues with others—whether these issues are theological, historical, or current affairs.<br /><br />Goodbye, Shawn. Go with God in Peace.<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NY<br /><br /><br />Kurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-47559727087015939262014-02-14T16:23:51.656+13:002014-02-14T16:23:51.656+13:00Some housekeeping before I take a bow. This is my ...Some housekeeping before I take a bow. This is my last post.<br /><br />Kurt,<br /><br />I never said anything about you being a Stalinist. That was not my question. My one and only question was very simple, but you have simply not answered it. You have not even responded to it.<br /><br />So, one simple question. How can the deaths of hundreds of millions of people, mostly the poor and powerless, be described as just a bit "messy"?<br /><br />That and that alone was my question and my critique.<br /><br />I realize this is Peter's house and he can set the rules he wants. My concerns are simply that the rules currently in place are not, to me, being adequately enforced.<br /><br />Goodbye.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-14468535517804842782014-02-14T09:50:23.581+13:002014-02-14T09:50:23.581+13:00MichaelA;
You know most people where ever you go ...MichaelA;<br /><br />You know most people where ever you go in the world just want to be left alone to farm their fields, fix cars in their workshops, sell whatever they sell in their shops and at the end of the day go home, eat dinner with their families and watch TV. And provided the Government doesn't get in their faces too much they don't give a damn where the capital is.<br /><br />Then along come rabble rousers, who actually are seeking power for themselves, who attract the disaffected to their cause and stir people up based on old grievances and if these people start getting traction, perhaps from outside help due given for geo political reasons (as we see unfolding in Ukraine even as we speak) then people start getting worried and retreat into tribal groupings for protection.<br /><br />Slovenia could leave easily because the overwhelming majority of the population identified themselves as Slovenes and perhaps also felt they had an affinity with Western Europe.<br /><br />Croatia and Bosnia were far more problematical because a significant minority (30%+) did not identify with the majority and also had bad memories (recent) of what happened the last time Croatia became an "independent" state.<br /><br />In fact there is a new European Empire the EU and neither Croatia nor Slovenia are truly independent, they have surrendered much of their sovereignty to the EU which is slowly working its way through the Balkans gobbling them up.<br /><br />And it is also working on gathering in Ukraine, in these days of trialAndreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04536593172412406428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-6279415464622030052014-02-14T03:42:05.138+13:002014-02-14T03:42:05.138+13:00“But, Kurt, if you are reading this, it would help...“But, Kurt, if you are reading this, it would help us, I am sure, if you could distance yourself from Stalinism ...).”—Fr. Carrell<br /><br />I’ll be happy to do so, Peter. As I have mentioned on this site more than once, I’m an anarchist. So, I thought that would sufficiently explain my anti-Stalinism to other folks. However, apparently it hasn’t. In the 1960s I was a member of Students for a Democratic Society. When SDS came apart in 1969, I joined the Young Socialist Alliance, a Trotskyist youth group totally opposed to Stalinism. I broke with Trotskyism in 1979, and have been an anarchist for nearly 30 years. Christian anarchism has a long and honorable history in the USA and elsewhere.<br /><br />I’m surprised by Shawn’s take on your blog, as well as his dismissal of your right to set certain standards for comment. This blog is, in a sense, your “living room” and you have the right to ask guests to respect your house rules. I have tried to do that to the best of my ability—no matter how provoked I have felt—with some success, I think.<br /><br />“For what it is worth, it strikes me that American 'exceptionalism' was at work in the Revolution there which did not descend into the murderous aftermath the French experienced (which was the harbinger of where the Russian, and Chinese Revolutions went).”—Fr. Carrell<br /><br />Part of the reason for this is that other nations did not intervene against the American Revolution on the side of Britain. Just the opposite, in fact. That was not the case with the French and Russian Revolutions, as I touched on earlier. Therefore, there was less paranoia in the American Revolution, thus fewer atrocities.<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63287267188793429842014-02-14T00:37:54.980+13:002014-02-14T00:37:54.980+13:00Andrei wrote:
"I'm not going to litigate...Andrei wrote:<br /><br />"I'm not going to litigate the Yugoslav wars with you"<br /><br />And you then proceed to do just that! You made a claim that was obviously incorrect and I called you out on it. Now you are still trying to justify it. Okay, let's examine your arguments: <br /><br />"but will note that Slovenia actually left Yugoslavia without much difficulty whereas for Croatia and and for Bosnia Herzegovina much blood was spilled and many people displaced along the way."<br /><br />The reason Slovenia left "without much difficulty"was that the Yugoslav leadership realised very quickly that they had no hope of holding the country (go there, and you will see what I mean). Slovenes have no doubt today that if Yugoslavia had defeated the Croatian and Bosnian independence movements, it would then have turned on them. <br /><br />"And that this would be entirely predictable to anyone who had a basic knowledge history."<br /><br />Having a basic knowledge of history is indeed an issue in this debate. <br /><br />"Key Words: Ustashi Jasenovac"<br /><br />So that is your only argument? Okay, let's look at it: According to you, oppression by Croats and Muslims in the 1940s justified oppression by Serbs 50s years later: 'They killed our children two generations ago, so now we are justified in killing the great-grandchildren of the murderers'.<br /><br />"Anyway when people seek independence from a larger National body how we view their claims and recognize them depends entirely upon our own pragmatic interests."<br /><br />In some cases that is true, but I suggest it mistakes the nature of this debate: You made the startling claim that Yugoslavia broke apart because the West was "eager to dismember it" and absorb its pieces into "the new European Empire". You were not prepared to concede that Yugoslavia had a serious issue with popularity - many of the people in it simply didn't want to be there any more, and they were prepared to risk death to get out of it. <br /><br />"Thus the West was entirely happy to recognize Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo, to the extent of using the West best and latest bombers against Serbian civilians to enforce the lasts departure from Belgrade's authority"<br /><br />Oh please. Belgrade used plenty of its own military technology against civilians, and some of its supporters were prepared to use Ustashi methods against defenceless people. Belgrade wasn't going to win because in the final analysis the legitimacy of any government depends on popular support and Belgrade didn't have it. It took a genius like Tito to hold a "country" as disparate as Yugoslavia together for so many years. After Tito was gone, his successors just didn't have the political talent to maintain it. <br /><br />"But no such courtesies are extended for Abkhazia or South Ossetia, which remain "breakaway regions of Georgia" because it suits the interests of Western Europe and the USA that they do so"<br /><br />Sorry, but once again you just do not know your facts. The vast majority of the world's governments still recognise both of those territories as part of Georgia. That includes many countries who do not like USA or Western Europe. Last time I looked, the independence of those territories was recognised only by Russia, Nicaragua and Venezuala. Not a single African or Asian nation recognises them. So don't go trying to blame this on the evil Americans. <br /><br />"When the rich man goes to war its the poor man who bleeds"<br /><br />Precisely. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-52833703665063691302014-02-13T13:19:56.800+13:002014-02-13T13:19:56.800+13:00I'm done. I have tried for a year to improve t...I'm done. I have tried for a year to improve things and I'm tired of hoping things will change. They are not going to, and what could be a good and important blog for us in NZ will just keep spiraling down into farce. I have pleaded for a year for the insults to stop, and you have shown me and your other guests zero respect by refusing to stop it. Moderation does not work with either individual, and your refusal to clean things up has become so tiresome that I can't be bothered anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-15495759789718508892014-02-13T12:52:15.289+13:002014-02-13T12:52:15.289+13:00"I think you may be missing an important poin..."I think you may be missing an important point about something Kurt said above re revolutions being messy things."<br /><br />No Peter, unlike you I understood exactly what his point was, just as it was clear what Ron's point was about narrow minded people. Your just trying to make facile excuses again and justify why you inflict both individuals on the rest of us. Your making excuses, not valid observations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74805184723650008772014-02-13T12:42:07.881+13:002014-02-13T12:42:07.881+13:00Hi Carl
In general terms I do not think that Socia...Hi Carl<br />In general terms I do not think that Socialism necessarily leads to Stalinism. It has not done so in Nyerere's Socialist Tanzania. It might not have done so in Allende's Chile, though we will never know because You Know Who interfered in the governance of that country. I think it worth discussing whether Cuba has been Stalinist in its approach to Communism.<br /><br />I do think that Leninism leads to Stalinism and Leninism prevailed in the Russian Revolution. It might not have done - Kerensky and co might have prevailed, but it was not so.<br /><br />For what it is worth, it strikes me that American 'exceptionalism' was at work in the Revolution there which did not descend into the murderous aftermath the French experienced (which was the harbinger of where the Russian, and Chinese Revolutions went).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-9750776123947646072014-02-13T12:36:05.848+13:002014-02-13T12:36:05.848+13:00Hi Ron
You raise a good set of questions and I am ...Hi Ron<br />You raise a good set of questions and I am happy to answer them.<br /><br />First question: the key word in the statement is "if". If Kurt's thinking (i.e. the seemingly easy way in which he blithely refrains from condemning Stalinism as an evil outcome of the Russian Revolution) is reflective of the 'Liberal Left which currently controls TEC' then something is not right with TEC. That leads to two questions: (a) what kind of 'Liberal Left' controls TEC? (b) specifically, is it the kind that reflects Kurt's (in my estimation, on the basis that he sees Obama Democraticness to his right) 'hard left' thinking?<br /><br />Second question: I find this quite impertinent. Many views are published here, and many of those many are clearly not views I subscribe to. Why would you ask if a storngly expressed view published here is published because it is my own view? And why about this subject and only this subject? (Some very strong views are being expressed about the Russian Revolution, the Russian counter-attack into Germany in 1945, the ins and outs of post-WW2 Yugoslavian policy etc. Are you going to ask whether I publish those views because I support them all?<br /><br />As a matter of fact I do not see Kurt's views as representative of the Liberal Left clique currently governing TEC.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-73718987605072302452014-02-13T12:19:56.981+13:002014-02-13T12:19:56.981+13:00Peter
But you are avoiding the main point. Why d...Peter<br /><br />But you are avoiding the main point. Why do you allow people on the Left to distance Socialism from Stalinism? You would never allow a National Socialist to distance the cause from Hitler. And yet you do precisely that when it comes to the ideological Left. The instructor to whom I referred above actually said during the class "Socialism has never been tried yet." Do you know why he said that? Because every example of a Socialist revolution to which he could point follwoed exactly the same bloody trail. They try to avoid the obvious, but it remains obvvious nonetheless.<br /><br />Stalinism wasn't a distortion of the revolution in Nov 1917. It was the natural outworking of that revolution. All the seeds were there under Lenin. The Cheka goes right back to the first days of the Revolution. Dzerzhinsky was there from the beginning. It is a myth that Leftists tell themselves that the Russian Revolution was somehow put off the path by Stalin. It wasn't. They just don't want to admit it. And they should be made to wear Stalin just the same way that neo-Nazis are made to wear Hitler.<br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02290618813437983875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19792198351024379492014-02-13T11:58:49.976+13:002014-02-13T11:58:49.976+13:00"If Kurt's thinking is in any way reflect..."If Kurt's thinking is in any way reflective of the view of the Liberal Left that currently controls TEC then it confirms for me that the rest of the Anglican Communion should expel TEC and disassociate ourselves from this kind of hideous evil." - S.H. -<br /><br />A question of Peter: Why is this awful statement allowed to remain on your blog? Is it because you think in similar terms? Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-252533614378013622014-02-13T11:54:42.237+13:002014-02-13T11:54:42.237+13:00Hi Shawn
I think you may be missing an important ...Hi Shawn<br /><br />I think you may be missing an important point about something Kurt said above re revolutions being messy things. That point is that he did not then go on to say that the consequences of the Russian Revolution (i.e. Stalinism) were justified. (But, Kurt, if you are reading this, it would help us, I am sure, if you could distance yourself from Stalinism ...).<br /><br />On just about any reading of Russian history, a messy revolution was in prospect as WW1 took its course, and I suggest needed given the awfulness of Tsarist mismanagement. That Leninism triumphed eventually as the lasting post-revolutionary force is regrettable as it murders its own masses and paved the way for Stalinism.<br /><br />Accordingly I am moderating the comment below where I think you are pressing against Kurt's comment on the basis of something he has not actually said (i.e. he has not explicitly justified the evil of Stalinism).<br /><br />""Oh, please Shawn. As I've told you before, I'm part Cherokee myself--decended from those who "passed" as white after 1838when the US government ordered the removal to the West. Big deal. You are not unique; there are literally millions of us in the USA."<br /><br />I never said it was a big deal, I said I know my history. And their are millions of people with a few drops of blood. I'm quite a bit more than the average, and I have spent time on tribal land, thanks to my folks.<br /><br />[The question your comment re revolutions are messy raises is this: are] you [] avoiding the issue, that you called the starvation of hundreds of millions of the poor and weak just a bit "messy"? [Have you revealed] your true face, and that of many on the far left, a face of evil that is willing to minimize or justify the most horrific crimes against humanity because of a sense of political self righteousness?<br /><br />[] <br />"Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-71473275791001430542014-02-13T06:23:22.824+13:002014-02-13T06:23:22.824+13:00Hi Kurt
We might just excise a comment within your...Hi Kurt<br />We might just excise a comment within your comment ...<br /><br />"Oh, please Shawn. As I've told you before, I'm part Cherokee myself--decended from those who "passed" as white after 1838when the US government ordered the removal to the West. Big deal. You are not unique; there are literally millions of us in the USA.<br /><br />"expel TEC and disassociate ourselves from this kind of hideous evil."<br /><br />[] If there is a "hideous evil" in America today, it's those who support the 1% of banksters and other corporate gangsters who have been bleeding the American people dry.<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NY<br />"Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-2395848654854870392014-02-13T06:21:25.883+13:002014-02-13T06:21:25.883+13:00I've generally been pro-American through most ...I've generally been pro-American through most of my life and believed in America's good faith in the cause of freedom. However, I've never really believed the American revolution was particularly justified, though there were real grievances.<br />And I can't be the only person to be annoyed by the absurd Hollywood trope of making the villain an upper class Englishman (like 'Scar' in The Lion King).<br />Most Americans, IIRC, didn't support the Revolution.<br />I'm afraid I don't find Andrei's apologia for the Red Army in Germany very convincing either.<br />A figure of 2 million German women raped suggests there was a massive breakdown of discipline - or rather that no such discipline was imposed for a time. Communiques from the Communists were worthless.<br /><br />Martin<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-20386682633480102982014-02-13T01:22:57.102+13:002014-02-13T01:22:57.102+13:00Andrei
It doesn't matter what Stalin said in ...Andrei<br /><br />It doesn't matter what Stalin said in public. He said publicly that Trotsky was the center of a huge conspiracy. He said publicly that Kirov was murdered by wreckers of the Revolution. Stalin routinely lied for public consumption. What is important is the actual policy he established and expected to be followed.<br /><br />There is no way - <i>No Way</i> - for Rape on such a massive scale to have occurred without the complicity of the command structure. The leadership would have tried to stop it if for no other reason as debilitating to military discipline. They would have to be prevented from stopping it. What happened in Eastern Europe was supposed to happen. And for the reasons I said.<br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70698539696240154402014-02-12T18:49:41.408+13:002014-02-12T18:49:41.408+13:00If Kurt's thinking is in any way reflective of...If Kurt's thinking is in any way reflective of the view of the Liberal Left that currently controls TEC then it confirms for me that the rest of the Anglican Communion should expel TEC and disassociate ourselves from this kind of hideous evil. <br /><br />Inclusive? Tolerant? Compassionate? Yeah right!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-50060946499507796222014-02-12T17:40:52.986+13:002014-02-12T17:40:52.986+13:00This is the relevant part of the order given by St...This is the relevant part of the order given by Stalin to the Red Army immediately prior to entering Germany<br /><i>Officers and men of the Red Army! We are entering the country of the enemy... the remaining population in the liberated areas, regardless of whether they're German, Czech, or Polish, should not be subjected to violence. The perpetrators will be punished according to the laws of war. In the liberated territories, sexual relations with females are not allowed. Perpetrators of violence and rape will be shot</i><br /><br />It contradicts your statement <i>The Debauchery of the Red Army in Europe in 1945 was official Soviet policy......</i><br /><br />How strictly it was adhered to varied no doubt from unit to unit but it was in force and enforced because Red Army soldiers were executed under its provisions.<br /><br />Germany in 1945 was a hellhole. In Berlin as the Red Army arrived young boys and old men were rounded up, given obsolete rifles with maybe three rounds of ammunition or a hand grenade and told to defend a position against Russian tanks - if they ran away they were hanged at a convenient location nearby with a sign around their necks proclaiming their treachery and there were young boys, old men and deserting soldiers hanging from trees and lampposts all over Berlin. Germans did this to themselves<br /><br />Europe, Russia was in ruins, the Third Reich was in its death throws, there were millions of young men, Russians, Americans, Frenchmen and English with guns getting drunk at any opportunity - it was a bad place to be and bad things happened - some of those young men negotiated all of this in an honourable fashion and some didn't. Some of them were well led, some were not.<br /><br />And at the end of it all there were a lot of dead peopleAndreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04536593172412406428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1199068117769084792014-02-12T15:00:19.450+13:002014-02-12T15:00:19.450+13:00Kurt,
"Freedom for whom, Shawn? Black people...Kurt,<br /><br />"Freedom for whom, Shawn? Black people? Women? Native Americans?<br />Certainly not for the Loyalists (Tories) who were chased from their homes, lynched in the streets, driven into exile, etc."<br /><br />More freedom is still freedom, not perfect freedom, but a start, certainly better than starving to death or dying in a Gulag. And trust me, you really don't want to trot out the Native American card with me. I know my own history (Cherokee) better than any white New York Liberal.<br /><br />"Unfortunately, most aristos and bourgeois keep on screwing "their" people, right up until the moment that their heads hit the basket...or their backs hit the wall..."<br /><br />The vast majority of people who died in the Soviet Union were the poor and the powerless.<br /><br />""Let them eat cake.""<br /><br />Do you know what an urban myth is? Try a little actual history instead.<br /><br />"Unjust ruling classes dig their own graves..."<br /><br />Mass murdering Communists dig their own graves.<br /><br />Do you have another argument as to why the deliberate murder through slow starvation of hundreds of millions of the poor and the weak, of women and children, was just a bit of "messiness"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-42895484033135566062014-02-12T14:50:14.782+13:002014-02-12T14:50:14.782+13:00Andrei
I get it from the same place that I get al...Andrei<br /><br />I get it from the same place that I get all the stuff about Einsatzgruppen and Japanese experimentation on POWs. It's a well established historical fact. How do you not know these things?<br /><br />If you want a primary source, then I would refer you to the biography of Solzhenitsyn.<br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-21365335773281226222014-02-12T14:45:51.328+13:002014-02-12T14:45:51.328+13:00Tim
Well, in my case, I don't. The Declaratio...Tim<br /><br />Well, in my case, I don't. The Declaration of Independence is a bad argument for rebellion. Every complaint it lists describes an action that is within the lawful authority of the Crown. Its ... uncomfortable...to be American with this attitude. To possess the uncomfortable knowledge that I would have been a Tory. (Worse! My children might have ended up Canadian.) But there you are.<br /><br />That's probably why the American Revolution is the one area of history I have always avoided. It's all water under the bridge for me anyways.<br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-15104882270663008372014-02-12T13:41:39.522+13:002014-02-12T13:41:39.522+13:00I've never quite figured out how American fund...I've never quite figured out how American fundamentalists square their support of their armed revolution with the literal interpretation of Romans 13 that they so often quote at pacifists...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com