tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post3475626609299082839..comments2024-03-29T06:58:28.383+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Why Don't We Let Bloggers Run The Communion Since They Know Best?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-11058025187010495802011-12-14T08:03:39.405+13:002011-12-14T08:03:39.405+13:00Oral Roberts? He must be from a different Cherokee...Oral Roberts? He must be from a different Cherokee band entirely.<br /><br />And a Merry Christmas to you, too, Martin!<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10977271084392357972011-12-14T07:13:09.498+13:002011-12-14T07:13:09.498+13:00"I wouldn’t bet the farm on those “Heartland ..."I wouldn’t bet the farm on those “Heartland Jacksonians,” Martin. Given the fact that I have Cherokee ancestry, I find it difficult to turn my back on them! (Be careful; they could be just as deceitful with you.)"<br /><br />That figures. I had a strong suspicion you were related to Oral Roberts.<br /><br />Merry Christmas, you old hippy trot!<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-49233302799508414072011-12-14T04:15:53.964+13:002011-12-14T04:15:53.964+13:00“There's no need for sarcasm, Kurt. It was an ...“There's no need for sarcasm, Kurt. It was an honest question.”<br /><br />I’m sorry you feel that way, Janice. It was meant to be an honest answer, not sarcasm.<br /><br />“The Left would never have made any inroads into heartland America even IF they had been left alone. Face it, the vast majority of Americans are not and are never going to be socialists.”<br /><br />Ah, the True Believer not only can acceptably interpret the past, s/he is an infallible prophet of the future because s/he bases politics on The Correct Party Line! (Read Isaac Deutscher’s “Trotsky Trilogy,” Shawn.)<br /><br />I wouldn’t bet the farm on those “Heartland Jacksonians,” Martin. Given the fact that I have Cherokee ancestry, I find it difficult to turn my back on them! (Be careful; they could be just as deceitful with you.)<br /><br />“Seeing the quality of the last few comments, this is perhaps the best reason why we don't let bloggers run the Anglican Communion.”<br /><br />Right on, Father Ron!<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-64267557145130364912011-12-13T22:19:31.147+13:002011-12-13T22:19:31.147+13:00In answer to your question in the title of this th...In answer to your question in the title of this thread, Peter:<br /><br />Seeing the quality of the last few comments, this is perhaps the best reason why we don't let bloggers run the Anglican CommunionFather Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-79711941657514221882011-12-13T20:44:59.698+13:002011-12-13T20:44:59.698+13:00Interesting comment, Shawn, about 'Heartland J...Interesting comment, Shawn, about 'Heartland Jacksonians'. Reminds me of soemthing I heard in a lecture by Donald Kagan of Yale, that just as folk left crowded ancient Greek cities to found colonies around the Med, Kansas was America's colony for people who lacked opportunity or land in the East. Crowded cities do produce political extremists, as well as social snobs like Kurt.<br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89274134027337139992011-12-13T12:46:52.167+13:002011-12-13T12:46:52.167+13:00Kurt,
None of what you have said about the war ag...Kurt,<br /><br />None of what you have said about the war against Communism proves your point. It would not have made a bit of difference if Communists (many of whom were actively working for the Soviet Union) had been left alone. It would have made no difference because the Lefts message would STILL have been rejected. Heartland Americans are Jacksonians (read Walter Russell Mead). They are fierce individualists, believe in Faith, Folk and Family, in hard work and self reliance, and are deeply opposed to and suspicious of any kind of Nanny Statism, let alone Socialism.<br /><br />So, yes it is an excuse. The Left would never have made any inroads into heartland America even IF they had been left alone. Face it, the vast majority of Americans are not and are never going to be socialists.<br /><br />Perhaps your East Coast Left-Liberal fundamentalism gets in the way of seeing the truth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-64794621281280356172011-12-13T11:58:32.809+13:002011-12-13T11:58:32.809+13:00It’s been a number of years since I attended that ...<i>It’s been a number of years since I attended that lecture/panel, Janice. I’ll see if I still have my notes from that conference.</i><br /><br />There's no need for sarcasm, Kurt. It was an honest question.Janicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-56662707441081128922011-12-13T08:22:52.732+13:002011-12-13T08:22:52.732+13:00"How many communists were executed in New Zea..."How many communists were executed in New Zealand during the Cold War, Shawn? How many were rounded up, deported and imprisoned?"<br /><br />NZ's only Communist of note was an old China hand from Canterbury called Rewi Alley who was a shill for Mao and was bigged up by the reds - as well as in NZ - for his propaganda on behalf of the Great Helsman-Murderer, although they were unhappy about his love for Chinese boys.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10360862681846272872011-12-13T04:38:15.123+13:002011-12-13T04:38:15.123+13:00Oh, please Peter, you can’t truly believe such non...Oh, please Peter, you can’t truly believe such nonsense, can you!? Obama has betrayed just about every campaign promise he made when he ran for office three years ago! He’s in the pocket of the big banks and corporations. Look at what he does, not what he says; the empty campaign rhetoric is just for suckers! “Exponent of class warfare”!? What a joke! If it were only true!!<br /><br />It’s been a number of years since I attended that lecture/panel, Janice. I’ll see if I still have my notes from that conference.<br /><br />Well, Shawn, if you have read a great deal of American history, perhaps your right-wing fundamentalism keeps getting in the way of your understanding of what you have read. I’ve seen it happen here many times on the left with political sectarians—particularly with the Trots. It’s a bi-product of True Believer Syndrome<br /><br />“Yep, thats called an excuse.”<br /><br />No, my friend, in the case of the Rosenbergs, it’s called judicial murder. There’s growing evidence from old intercepts, etc. that Julius was a minor Soviet agent. Ethel was not. Neither of the Rosenbergs was guilty of the specific crimes with which they were charged. Even today, with what we know about Julius’ Soviet activities, it’s clear that Ethel was innocent of any capital offense. She was held as a hostage to put pressure on Julius. (We also now know that even J. Edgar Hoover opposed her execution, Martin.)<br /><br />How many communists were executed in New Zealand during the Cold War, Shawn? How many were rounded up, deported and imprisoned? How many Maori civil rights activists did New Zealand police murder in their beds in 1968-69? Can you give me the names of unarmed New Zealand anti-war protesters shot down in cold blood by their own military? Has the political purging and busting of trade unions been a priority of governments in New Zealand during the past 30 years, Shawn? Do you think that events like the above tend to encourage political activity or discourage it? <br /><br />And you call yourself “Libertarian”!? <br /><br />“Now does that sound like your "fundamentalist extremist" bogeyman?”<br /><br />You are correct, Shawn. That choice excerpt sounds to me like the type of pop political and social “analysis” that was commonly found in the pages of “Look” or “Life” magazine circa 1968. A Marcuse or McLuhan he’s obviously not. No wonder the man’s writings are so little known outside of right-wing, con evo circles.<br /> <br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-7145897876870426492011-12-12T15:09:20.719+13:002011-12-12T15:09:20.719+13:00Kurt,
"You really should read some American ...Kurt,<br /><br />"You really should read some American history." <br /><br />I have read a great deal of American history. I was born there for a start, and remain a U.S citizen.<br /><br />"“The left” in America hasn’t been able to truly and fairly contest for “the votes of heartland Americans” since the 1930s."<br /><br />Yep, thats called an excuse.<br /><br />The Left in New Zealand does the same thing when they lose. Theu say things like: "Its not our fault, the media was against us...the evil corporations were against us...we were oppressed...the people are stupid rednecks who do not know what is good for them...blah, blah blah."<br /><br />The truth, especially in the U.S., is that vast numbers of heartland Americans simply reject your message. They do not want socialism, secularism and liberalism being forced upon them by west-east coast elites who despise traditional values and hold heartland Americans in contempt.<br /><br />"But you are correct, I’ve not read Schaeffer’s work"<br /><br />Then you need to actually read Schaeffer. If all you have done is rely on liberal-left hysteria-mongers then you cannot say anything of valid substance concerning Schaeffer. <br /><br />If your interested in green issues you might try 'Polution and the Death of Man' for a start.<br /><br />Here is a quote from it.<br /><br />"...the hippies of the 1960s did understand something. They were right in fighting the plastic culture, and the church should have been fighting it too... More than this, they were right in the fact that the plastic culture - modern man, the mechanistic worldview in university textbooks and in practice, the total threat of the machine, the establishment technology, the bourgeois upper middle class - is poor in its sensitivity to nature... As a utopian group, the counterculture understands something very real, both as to the culture as a culture, but also as to the poverty of modern man's concept of nature and the way the machine is eating up nature on every side." -Chapter 2<br /><br />Now does that sound like your "fundamentalist extremist" bogeyman?<br /><br />Yes Schaeffer was an inspiration to many on the Christian Right, myself included. That does not make him evil and beyond the pale. And you really do need to read him, give him a fair hearing, before dismissing him on the basis of the kind of selective crap that his critics are fond of. You might find, as in the quote above, that he was a much more politically rounded and genuinely insightful writer than his critics give him credit for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-23213486632766980212011-12-12T15:08:52.239+13:002011-12-12T15:08:52.239+13:00Ron,
"Shawn, I promised myself recently that...Ron,<br /><br />"Shawn, I promised myself recently that I was not going to respond to any of your goads on this web-site"<br /><br />I have not been goading, I have been debating.<br /><br />"but I can hardly avoid your mistaken assertion that 'semper reformanda' excludes a right and proper revision of traditional understanding of what the bible might be saying to today's Christians - especially on the subject of gender and sexuality"<br /><br />How is it mistaken? Give me a theological argument. I know what the Reformers meant by Semper Reformanda, and it bears no resemblence to your position, as far as I can tell.<br /><br />If you can privide me with a credible theological argument I will give it a fair hearing. But so far all I have seen from you are lies about conservatives and superficial justifications for the inclusive position.<br /><br />"A little judicious 'reading around' might help you to better understand the reality of the diversity of human sexual response"<br /><br />I have done a fair amount of reading on this issue. Have you?<br /><br />Human beings are fallen. So the "diversity" you speak of is a result of that fallenness.<br /><br />There are hundreds of psycho-sexual complusions that humans can be victims of. Do you accept all of them? Pedophilia? Necrophilia? Beastiality?<br /><br />Your mistake is in assuming that if it appears in nature it must be good.<br /><br />That is a deeply un-Biblical and irrational assumption. Many things appear in nature, such as cancer. This does not automatically make them blessed by God.<br /><br />"Your 'loud shouting' on the web"<br /><br />You cannot shout on a web page. I merely like to debate, robustly yes, but debate, not shout.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74910114499618127312011-12-12T11:17:06.926+13:002011-12-12T11:17:06.926+13:00Shawn, I promised myself recently that I was not g...Shawn, I promised myself recently that I was not going to respond to any of your goads on this web-site, but I can hardly avoid your mistaken assertion that 'semper reformanda' excludes a right and proper revision of traditional understanding of what the bible might be saying to today's Christians - especially on the subject of gender and sexuality. <br /><br />A little judicious 'reading around' might help you to better understand the reality of the diversity of human sexual response - and the concomitant influence of chromo-somatic biological make-up of human beings - not to mention the natural animal world. <br /><br />Your 'loud shouting' on the web fails to convince me of your superior knowledge of human sexuality as an expression of God's infinitely diverse creation.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54432904887193989792011-12-11T22:11:00.818+13:002011-12-11T22:11:00.818+13:00Kurt,
I'm interested to know how you define &...Kurt,<br /><br />I'm interested to know how you define "fundamentalist extremist". <br /><br />I ask because I read a couple of Francis Schaeffer's books many years ago and don't recall anything about them that struck me as particularly fundy or extremist.Janicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-26502937972524836052011-12-11T21:29:33.626+13:002011-12-11T21:29:33.626+13:00Communism has certainly been the greatest scourge ...Communism has certainly been the greatest scourge on humanity in history, just to judge by the 100 million deaths it caused in the 20th century, to say nothing of the immiseration of millions and countlerss other forms of suffering and oppression. Christians have been among its primary victims.<br />The Rosenbergs got what they deserved. So did Alger Hiss. They perpetuated the oppression of millions. <br />That anyone should speak up for them after this dismal experience shows the triumph of dope over experience.<br />Or maybe it's their partial success in whitewashing the past. I know a teacher who dsplays a picture of history's greatest mass murderer Joseph Stalin in his classroom. He gets no 'kickback' because none of his ignorant studnets knows who Stalin was. He wouldn't try the same trick with a picture of Hitler.<br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-68760892725796839582011-12-11T08:38:15.893+13:002011-12-11T08:38:15.893+13:00Hi Ron,
I do profess an interest in politics: Kiwi...Hi Ron,<br />I do profess an interest in politics: Kiwi, US and British.<br /><br />I am also interested in sport, especially rugby and cricket.<br /><br />Currently I do not have time to blog on those interests but you may have observed that occasionally they intrude into ADU!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-69177404139120896442011-12-11T08:01:43.292+13:002011-12-11T08:01:43.292+13:00I'm glad I'm ignorant of American politics...I'm glad I'm ignorant of American politics. I do so admire those Kiwis who can legitimately profess even an academic interest in other countries' domestic affairs. Seems like we have enough politics in NZ for me to bother with other people's politics.<br />I have enough trying to keep up with Church politics.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-82993355423674603072011-12-11T07:07:04.840+13:002011-12-11T07:07:04.840+13:00Tis a miracle, Kurt, that notwithstanding the gene...Tis a miracle, Kurt, that notwithstanding the general tendency in what you say to be historically thus and so, nevertheless America managed in 2008 to elect to the presidency an exponent of class warfare, a proponent of distribution of income from the rich to the poor, and an implementer of the socialization of the means of production, especially if talking cars or health!<br /><br />True, this "socialist" president has some curious friends (Wall St bankers), and his plans may not succeed in becoming permanent in the social, economic and political landscape ... but I suggest history will look back on Obama's presidency as a period when the vision of the future for America was as strongly socialist as it ever was in the past (Roosevelt?).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8563278577370689152011-12-11T04:20:35.559+13:002011-12-11T04:20:35.559+13:00“Flyover country,” Martin? I never fly to a destin...“Flyover country,” Martin? I never fly to a destination if I can take the train! It’s so much more fun that way! (And, of course, more eco-responsible, too!)<br /><br />Not simply the “party line” but “the truth”? Of course it is, Shawn. Don’t you know that ALL party lines are The Truth? (Just ask any New Zealand Trot). But you are correct, I’ve not read Schaeffer’s work (that I can recall); I have relied on people who have read and studied Schaeffer to make a judgment call. That call is: Francis Schaeffer is a fundamentalist extremist. (Perhaps some spring you’ll consider attending the annual Left Forum a/k/a Socialist Scholars Conference here in NYC. There are always hundreds of stimulating talks and panels on many subjects—which, over the years, have included Schaeffer’s contribution to the so-called Christian Right. I’m sure you would enjoy sparring with some leftie Harvard prof during the Q & A, yes? I know I do!)<br /><br />A “standard left-wing excuse”? Oh, please Shawn! You really should read some American history. “The left” in America hasn’t been able to truly and fairly contest for “the votes of heartland Americans” since the 1930s. The Red Scare, McCarthyism, the purge of the unions and professions in the 1940s, the Hollywood blacklist, the deportation or imprisonment of members of the American Communist Party (and other leftists, too) along with the CP’s virtual illegalization in the 1950s, the execution of the Rosenbergs, the police repression of the Black Panthers, the murders of anti-war protesters at Kent State and Jackson, the smashing of PATCO etc., etc. have all helped to render the American left isolated and ineffectual (at least until recently). <br /><br />Repression works (in the short run, anyway) and the repression of the American left ushered in the hegemony of our present Demopublican/Republicratic regime; it paved the way for thirty years of unchallenged corporate domination. And don’t forget the capitalist bootlicks in the “mainstream news media” here (comprised of financially over-compensated milquetoast liberals and right-wing bigots). Confront some of the most unreasonable and undemocratic election laws on the planet. Perhaps then you will begin to understand the difficulties that what’s left of the left operates under in America. Of course, no socio-political hegemony lasts forever; and the beginning of the end may be nearer than many think. (I hope!)<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70425751319853495612011-12-10T22:00:40.253+13:002011-12-10T22:00:40.253+13:00"By the way, I’m a nominal member of the Gree..."By the way, I’m a nominal member of the Green Party"<br /><br />"Nominal" - pshaw! typical Episcopalian ("nominal membership 1.95 m, ASA 700k, 4/10 on the Commandments). Does "nominal green" mean you feel twinges of eco-guilt when you jet over redn-, er, flyover country? :)<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-29401791869917156822011-12-10T11:10:35.368+13:002011-12-10T11:10:35.368+13:00Kurt,
It is not simply the party line, it is the ...Kurt,<br /><br />It is not simply the party line, it is the truth. Francis Schaeffer did not advocate Dominionism in any shape or form. To claim that its like saying that that Mussolini was a less rigorous fascist than Hitler is wrong because they were in fact both fascists. Scaheffer was not a Dominionsist, as anyone familiar with his writings can testify. According to your argument then anyone on the Right is a fascist, merely for the fact of being on the Right. Thats like me saying that the Green party are fascists because Hitler was a vegetarian. Its a silly comparison, as is yours, and adds nothing of substance to the debate.<br /><br />Question. Have you actually read Schaeffer?<br /><br />Libertarianism is more than just the LP. There are libertarians in the Republican camp as well, and I'm inclined to vote tactically. Aspects of liberatrianism can be advanced by voting for the mainstream Right.<br /><br />In New Zealand I voted for National, our mainstream centre-right party, on the basis that they are at least going to hold the line on government spending, partially sell some assets, and other policies that in part advance the libertarian cause.<br /><br />I disagree with your pessimism about who controls the world, or the USA. Thats just a standard left wing excuse to explain away why the Left has largely lost the votes of heartland Americans.<br /><br />My own libertarianism os of the "Paleo" variety, less LP and more Murray Rothbard and the Mises institute. Paleolibertarians are cultural conservatives.<br /><br />Ron,<br /><br />"Only an openly Inclusive Church would be able to perpetuate the reformed and catholic 'semper reformanda' ethos that I believe to be the historical genius of Anglicanism."<br /><br />Semper Reformanda means to bring the Church back to the authority of the Bible. Your liberal version of "inclusivism" would do the opposite.<br /><br />"The Church is not a mausoleum for saints, but a hospital for sinners."<br /><br />I agree, but your claiming homosexuality is not a sin in the first place, which contradicts your point. Let me put it another way. The Church is a hospital for the sin-sick, homosexuals included, not a political club for white, middle class liberals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-71393601405872539852011-12-10T09:49:14.657+13:002011-12-10T09:49:14.657+13:00While the Global South cooperative continues to in...While the Global South cooperative continues to insist on the radical exclusion of LGBT people from any Communion it is willing to be part of, I suggest that it remains as culpable as GAFCON in wanting a puritanical, sola-scriptura Church. <br /><br />To go along with the status quo would send us back to square one in the debate. I would certainly consider that a retrograde step. <br /><br />Only an openly Inclusive Church would be able to perpetuate the reformed and catholic 'semper reformanda' ethos that I believe to be the historical genius of Anglicanism. Also, it equates with the freedom of Christ in the Gospel. <br /><br />It should be noted that even the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Westminster, Archbishop Nichols, at a recent meeting of his Bishops in England, commended the human rights claims of Same-Sex couples, as therefore having a legitimate right 'to be'.<br /><br />The Church is not a mausoleum for saints, but a hospital for sinners.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-71186041341768971392011-12-10T05:02:09.027+13:002011-12-10T05:02:09.027+13:00You’re quite welcome, Mark! By the way, I’m a nomi...You’re quite welcome, Mark! By the way, I’m a nominal member of the Green Party (to the delight of my Republican acquaintances as well as to the consternation of my friends in “the Democrat party.”)<br /><br />I must admit that I am somewhat impressed by your psychoanalyzation of Franky Schaeffer. If I might point out a possible Freudian slip of your own? You write: “Talk about someone who has made a career out of metaphorically killing their dad.” Are you implying that Franky was the spokesman for Priscilla, Susan and Deborah as well? That they may have collaborated on “his” book? Interesting.<br /><br />Is Franky Schaeffer capable of writing anything that isn't justifying his turning on his parents? Why don’t folks Down Under decide for themselves, rather than take the word of a…fundamentalist? Check him out: http://www.frankschaeffer.com/<br /><br />Well Shawn, we apparently have points of agreement, as well as major areas of disagreement. <br /><br />On the one hand you write: “Francis Schaeffer never supported nor advocated Dominionism or Christian Reconstructionism, and it is thin at best to claim his views inevatibly lead there.”<br /><br />Well, that’s the right-wing “party line” of course. For many people, however, it’s like arguing that Mussolini was a less rigorous fascist than Hitler. (Or, if you prefer, it’s like arguing that Lenin was a less rigorous communist than Stalin.) To the victims in America and elsewhereit matters little, even if the intensity of the “True Believer” varies from country to country, society to society.<br /><br />On the other hand you also write: “Being a Libertarian I would be considered far right on economic issues, but genuinely liberal, in the original sense of the word, on social issues.”<br /><br />Sounds Libertarian to me. (I have on occasion voted for Libertarian Party candidates here—when the proper leftie candidates for such offices are absent from the ballot).<br /><br />I would say, however, that the “Libertarian right” in this country has almost as little influence as the “libertarian Left” does. What Ike Eisenhower called “the military industrial complex” and Wall Street’s finance, insurance and real estate tycoons are far, far more important players on the board. Sure, the Libertarian right has Ron Paul; and the democratic left has Bernie Sanders. Big deal.<br /><br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75152469363706289482011-12-10T00:23:07.581+13:002011-12-10T00:23:07.581+13:00Hi Peter,
Yes, I agree that the Covenant is the o...Hi Peter,<br /><br />Yes, I agree that the Covenant is the only option on the table; the only thing being offered by Lambeth. <br /><br />But that doesn't mean it is the only serious option available. I'm saying that the Global South encounter meetings arguably provide a better model of the way forward for the Communion, and that group could be asked to come up with something that they think would do the job that needs to be done. <br /><br />I think that group has already shown that it can create something that genuinely works, and doesn't simply concentrate power into another (un)accountable and (un)representative group. I think such a solution would be strongly resisted by Lambeth, as I am now of the view that Lambeth is acting with an eye to enhancing its control of formal structures of the communion. Nonetheless, when the covenant fails to get sufficient support (which looks pretty much a cert - England will have to decide whether they want a drastically reduced communion or abandon the covenant as a solution) then I think those who aren't committed to that kind of centralized power solution should push for the Global South group to take to the lead.<br /><br />Obviously those really committed to revising a Christian understanding of sex, and especially same gender sex, won't want that, as the Global South, as a whole, wants a path that will address that issue decisively. But that's the point at which the communion is going to have to make a choice. If the only real options that are given is either both positions on same gender sex are accepted in the communion or a semi-permanent moratorium on some practices associated with revising that consensus, while continuing to teach contrary to it, I think we'll just see an ongoing bleed from the communion as province after province drops out, leaving only those provinces who have made peace with liberalism within the communion.<br /><br />Eventually we'd lose most of the Global South, I think, if all that is offered is a way for everyone to stay together despite differences. I don't think that will be acceptable to the Global South as a whole in the long term. But I think they are capable of creating something that could graciously and non-coercively pull together the majority of the communion that is basically orthodox - reasserters of all stripes and conservative revisionists. The alternative will be a communion that has revisionists of all stripes plus some liberal and centrist reasserters. I doubt we can do better than one of those two alternatives.Mark Baddeleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-71595981941790568842011-12-09T17:26:29.852+13:002011-12-09T17:26:29.852+13:00Kurt,
I personally reject the notion the right is...Kurt,<br /><br />I personally reject the notion the right is the party of the 1%. The first problem is, which right are we talking about? The right, like the left, is a divided house. But even if we take the mainstream right, I don't think the accusation is accurate.<br /><br />Much, not all, but much of the Right is supported by far more than just the 1% of the top rich. If that were not the case the right would not have been as succesful as it has over the last thirty years in the Anglosphere.<br /><br />The Right represents a diversity of views, from libertarians to conservatives and many others. Many of the Right's concerns are increasingly those of the middle class and even the working class.<br /><br />National would not have won the level of support it did at the last election if it only represented 1% of the nation.<br /><br />Francis Schaeffer never supported nor advocated Dominionism or Christian Reconstructionism, and it is thin at best to claim his views inevatibly lead there.<br /><br />I have read 'A Christian Manifesto' many times, and it reads more libertarian than Dominionist to me.<br /><br />Many. including Schaefer's son, who seems to be working out in public his own psycholigical issues, have mis-represented Schaeffer and often mis-quoted him. I particularly find this with Franky, who often mis-quotes 'A Christian Manifesto' in order to support his unfair accusations.<br /><br />Rather than avoid each other, I would much rather talk and debate.<br /><br />My first question would be, given what to me is the far left control of ACANZ'z social justice wing why one extreme is better than another?<br /><br />Far Right is a subjective label, as are, to be fair, the labels I use to define those I disagree with.<br /><br />Being a Libertarian I would be considered far right on economic issues, but genuinely liberal, in the original sense of the word, on social issues. While I maintain that the Church should hold the line on what I believe to be the the God-given Biblical teaching on marriage and sexuality, as far as civil society goes I completey support the right of homosexuals top live their lives as they see fit, including legal marriage and adoption rights, without interference from the state or me, or anyone else. <br /><br />Does that make me far right or far left?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43111581948335799042011-12-09T15:13:47.680+13:002011-12-09T15:13:47.680+13:00Hi Mark
I think Global South is offering a way for...Hi Mark<br />I think Global South is offering a way forward, but the key step is not yet taken of Global South being Global South +North (+East+West) ... so, as far as I can see, the Covenant still is the main proposal for a renewed Communion being considered by all member churches of the Communion ...<br /><br />I try to stay away from all extremists!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.com