tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post4360599048654357233..comments2024-03-28T22:29:52.666+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Paring downPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-15384073261878002932012-11-26T21:14:01.312+13:002012-11-26T21:14:01.312+13:00Thank you kiwianglo, I do take great comfort from ...Thank you kiwianglo, I do take great comfort from that verse. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-37234672195489970602012-11-26T13:25:54.460+13:002012-11-26T13:25:54.460+13:00Thanks, Martin. No need to apologise for anything:...Thanks, Martin. No need to apologise for anything:robust comments are welcome here ... the trick, however, is for me to moderate in such a way that many feel free to comment rather than just the few!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-66211573522005105722012-11-26T12:10:10.746+13:002012-11-26T12:10:10.746+13:00"Blessed are you, when people revile you - fo..."Blessed are you, when people revile you - for My sake and the sake of the Gospel - for your is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus, Redeemer and King.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-88827961432674768332012-11-26T10:54:49.592+13:002012-11-26T10:54:49.592+13:00Peter, thank you for your gracious reply. If I spo...Peter, thank you for your gracious reply. If I spoke more forcefully than I should have, I apologise, since this is your blog and you have the absolute right to publish or refuse as you see fit.<br />Times are getting darker in the 'western' Anglican world, or maybe I should say that as some things get darker, others get brighter. Whatever one thinks of women bishops (or bishops 'full stop'), the more fundamental question is whether someone is a Christian and shares the same vision of the Gospel as another. It is faith and the calling of God that makes one a Christian, and having this 'pneumatic' understanding of the Church, it is not particularly important to me whether someone has been through the legal formularies of a denomination. This is something the Orthodox understand too! I have very little in common with the beliefs (as far as I can descry them) of a Katherine Schori or very many of the professed bishops of Tec, and I can only wish God speed to Mark Lawrence in South Carolina. We *knew things would come to this pass in 2003, and the complete failure of Rowan Williams to use his office to avert this disaster (but rather to subvert the Communion) has only deepened the pain. As Mark Lawrence himself has recognized, there is no point in wasting time and energy arguing these issues any longer.<br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3740322986159400822012-11-25T05:58:37.762+13:002012-11-25T05:58:37.762+13:00Dear Martin,
Thanks for your comment which I parti...Dear Martin,<br />Thanks for your comment which I partially publish here. (I take seriously what you say in the first part of your comment but do not think publishing it does anything for anyone. Suffice to say, if I have been lenient, that is my responsibility and my mistake. In my justification of some of the leniency (I have now, numerous times, admitted I have go it wrong as a moderator re other instances of leniency) I find it hard to distinguish between robust comments (from several commenters), a degree of personal response, and straightforward i-bullying). Mea culpa.<br /><br />Here is your comment:<br /><br />"Peter,<br /> ... <br />I (and maybe others) gave up on this blog because I (and maybe others) got heartily sick of Ron Smith's ... ad hominem attacks on sincere Christians. If you as blog editor had simply banned him a while back on the grounds that he has his own blog where he can freely expound his opinions, there would have been a much more constructive discussion and debate from an evangelical perspective - something otherwise lacking in NZ Anglican evangelical circles. But you let him muddy the waters constantly instead of dealing with the problem at source. This is a self-inflicted wound.<br /><br />Martin <br />"<br /><br />I will try to do better, once again, to moderate strongly and fearlessly.<br /><br />I hope you and others might feel free to re-engage here.<br /><br />Ron: if reading this before you depart on your cruise. NO ad hominem attacks. NONE whatsoever. or DELETE.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-12221364912174087052012-11-24T19:48:41.321+13:002012-11-24T19:48:41.321+13:00Happy cruising, Ron!
See you in the new year. Happy cruising, Ron!<br /><br />See you in the new year. Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1304010925451978012012-11-24T19:31:23.541+13:002012-11-24T19:31:23.541+13:00Dear Peter, et al.
I shall deprive myself of the ...Dear Peter, et al.<br /><br />I shall deprive myself of the mixed joy and agony involved in reading and responding to sometimes hateful and sometimes helpful comments on A.D.U.<br /><br />You can all breath a sight of relief when I tell you that I shall shortly be cruising between Tahiti and Auckland across the waters of the South Pacific - to try to restore my shattered nerves. <br /><br />See y'all next year! Unless I'm banned in the meantime. Agape!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-29755945571153290072012-11-24T10:11:36.186+13:002012-11-24T10:11:36.186+13:00Thankyou Peter.
The sad irony is that the offendi...Thankyou Peter.<br /><br />The sad irony is that the offending comment was directed at a post in which I was defending the ordination of women and their election to the episcopate, surely an issue that Ron and I are in happy agreement about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1755176066996799432012-11-24T06:21:05.258+13:002012-11-24T06:21:05.258+13:00Dear Ron
It is not right that another Chrisitan is...Dear Ron<br />It is not right that another Chrisitan is being offended by words you write. There is, all to often, a less than respectful (I.e. snide, sarcastic) tone in your responses to Shawn. Often it is just one sentence in a long paragraph which gives offence or one word in a short response. <br /><br />Whether you intend to give offence or not, I want to take Shawn's comment above very seriously. From my part if I judge a comment to involve a personal response to Shawn rather than a sole focus on the substance of the comment he - or another - makes, I will delete without explanation. Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3523539453710351142012-11-24T03:18:21.340+13:002012-11-24T03:18:21.340+13:00Peter,
What I did or did not say concerning Colin...Peter,<br /><br />What I did or did not say concerning Colin Slee is not the issue. The issue is why Ron's serious attacks on my character are getting through moderation, and what your going to do with regards to that. More importantly, what are you going to do about his behavior.<br /><br />Your allowing a bully to run riot on your blog, attack and insult your guests, and repeated calls to do something about this have been ignored. I do not understand this, and I am frankly fed up with the situation. Asking him to stop has not worked. Moderation has not worked. Slapping his wrist with avert bus ticket will not work. He has demonstrated repeatedly that he has no intention of ceasing his personal attacks. <br /><br />If someone cane into my hone and attacked my guests the way he has done I would not hesitate to throw such a person out. <br /><br />This is your blog. You have a duty of care to ensure that your guests are safe to speak freely.<br /><br />This time the issue cannot be swept under the carpet as has been done on the past.<br /><br />Defamation of character is a serious issue with legal consequences.<br /><br />Please take action to ensure Ron's behavior does not continue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41069478549767048632012-11-23T22:22:19.978+13:002012-11-23T22:22:19.978+13:00I'm not. Check my posts above. Please take my ...I'm not. Check my posts above. Please take my warning seriously. I am not joking. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-76351046956255295822012-11-23T22:09:04.881+13:002012-11-23T22:09:04.881+13:00Goodbye Shawn. I'm sorry you're leaving us...Goodbye Shawn. I'm sorry you're leaving us.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40113003749234177602012-11-23T18:25:43.460+13:002012-11-23T18:25:43.460+13:00Love it Carl! I have never, ever before in my life...Love it Carl! I have never, ever before in my life been called a starry eyed optimist ... Makes we wonder what/which/who moved ...?!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-84596191076558898722012-11-23T16:54:02.723+13:002012-11-23T16:54:02.723+13:00There is a difference, Shawn, between describing a...There is a difference, Shawn, between describing a phrase as nasty and describing a person as nasty, so your latest comment is acceptable; and "Anglican Taliban" is not a kind phrase at all.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-25865674859943981292012-11-23T16:28:54.529+13:002012-11-23T16:28:54.529+13:00Bryden Black
The difference between us is that yo...Bryden Black<br /><br />The difference between us is that you are an starry-eyed optimist whereas I am a realist. You say the glass is half-full. I say the glass is half-empty, cracked, leaking, filled with shards of glass, and probably poisoned. We realists aren't often disappointed in our expectations.<br /><br />carl ;)carl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-20107926449595978502012-11-23T15:59:10.478+13:002012-11-23T15:59:10.478+13:00“Evangelicals need to wrest the issue of women’s o...“Evangelicals need to wrest the issue of women’s ordination from Liberalism so that the cause is not hindered by association with a failed and heretical ideology.<br /><br />The answer to extreme forms of feminist “theology” and liberal women priests is not an exclusively male leadership, but the raising up of Biblically obedient evangelical/orthodox women ministers.” - Shawn (an extract from his comment now removed, but still valid, 22 Nov 12:24 pm)<br /><br />I could not agree more, Shawn, which is exactly my own position, adopted some 30 years ago having tried to work through what I saw and see the issues to be. The only change I sense in my own stance is towards those Evangelicals (not the Anglo-Catholics, whose premises are often different), who cannot subscribe to WO: what does it really mean to abide by the FIRST Eames Report? Though of course trad A-Cs are involved as well writ-large: viz only now ACNA. It is the unconscionable behaviour of some/many/most (delete the inapplicable according to whether you’re Gary/Carl/myself/et al) that has deservedly created the events in CoE’s GS this week.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-32796240946341747552012-11-23T15:47:12.198+13:002012-11-23T15:47:12.198+13:00Hi Peter,
I am aware that my own posts have not a...Hi Peter,<br /><br />I am aware that my own posts have not always been helpful in raising the tone here and for that I apologize. I have been striving to moderate myself, not always with success. I have been engaged in political debate on other forums and am used to very robust debate, but I recognize that such fierce debate is not helpful here.<br /><br />However, my fierceness was almost always towards ideas and groups, not personal attacks.<br /><br />My comment regarding Colin Slee was about his calling evangelicals in the Church the "Anglican Taliban", which by any standards was nasty. But I did not word it in a way that perhaps made that clear.<br /><br />There is however an order of magnitude in difference between my comments and the kind of very personal character attacks and insults that Ron has repeatedly engaged in. Calling me a sycophant for supporting Bishop Victoria was the last straw for me.<br /><br />I live in this diocese, people know me. My wife lives and works in this diocese as an ordained minister. Personal attacks against me are attacks on her also, on the name we share. They are not acceptable.<br /><br />I have contacted Ron and made it clear that any further such attacks on this or any other forum will without hesitation result in legal action on my part, whether through the Church or the Courts. I have not made that decision lightly.<br /><br />Any further posts by me in the future will be very carefully moderated and double checked by me before I post them, but I cannot prevent others from taking offense at having their views or beliefs challenged.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-4047111877302261542012-11-23T15:21:12.564+13:002012-11-23T15:21:12.564+13:00Hi Shawn and Ron,
Generally your posts here are f...Hi Shawn and Ron,<br /><br />Generally your posts here are fine. But often it is one or two words that let your comment down in respect of something said about someone else.<br /><br />Might I ask you to doublecheck your comments?<br /><br />Sometimes I have time to moderate and remove a word or two which I estimate to be likely to give offence. But today was not one of those occasions, hence the removal of three comments in toto.<br /><br />Sometimes too, I recognise that in my own haste I do not read carefully enough what is written and allow things to be published which may be both robust and give offence.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-49703111329830383012012-11-23T14:38:36.240+13:002012-11-23T14:38:36.240+13:00Thanks again Michael A for pointing out the detail...Thanks again Michael A for pointing out the details of the case in CoE, namely, your last paragraph. It is just such things as these “amendments” that tie in with my own English friends’ comments to me, including those when I was there last in April. And while the sorts of things Gary and Carl have been saying here chime in well with the current loudest voices (David Cameron’s “get with the programme” being amongst the best, surely?!), longer term I still have to suggest other forces are also at play ...<br /><br />The “Gamaliel test” after all requires time for it to show itself. Meanwhile, we shall just have to be the sorts of Christians we are called upon to be - as innocent as doves and as shrewd as serpents! Including how to stack synodical governmental systems!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-85768946386189776402012-11-23T14:35:20.028+13:002012-11-23T14:35:20.028+13:00Any further public attacks on my character by Ron ...Any further public attacks on my character by Ron will result in legal action on my part, as well as an official complaint to the Bishop regarding the behavior of one of her priests.<br /><br />My patience has run out.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-81652560345337609692012-11-23T14:01:19.032+13:002012-11-23T14:01:19.032+13:00Oh. I see you removed my comment.
I think this wi...Oh. I see you removed my comment.<br /><br />I think this will be my last post. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40430899726273419952012-11-23T13:57:08.861+13:002012-11-23T13:57:08.861+13:00I must have been publishing my comment while you w...I must have been publishing my comment while you were already taking action.<br /><br />Thankyou, but please let Ron himself know that such comments are unacceptableAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-23252737353428560402012-11-23T13:52:25.326+13:002012-11-23T13:52:25.326+13:00Peter,
Could you please remove the extremely nast...Peter,<br /><br />Could you please remove the extremely nasty and un-called for attack on my character by Ron in his last post, and could you please refrain from publishing such comments in the future? This is a public forum, and I am sick of my name dragged through the mud by him, especially when my right to defend my name and honor is always moderated out of existence, while his deliberate insults seem to pass moderation at an alarming rate.<br /><br />I believe what I said about the election of Victoria and anyone who knows me knows I am no sycophant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-28396130561445489102012-11-23T13:43:51.404+13:002012-11-23T13:43:51.404+13:00Note to commenters:
I have removed three comments...Note to commenters:<br /><br />I have removed three comments which invoke/respond to a remark involving the word "nasty" about another person.<br /><br />Whatever we feel about that person, and whether they may or may not have said something nasty themselves about other Christians, I need to aim high with standards here (and not be sued!!), so I have removed the comments. <br /><br />I should not have allowed the initial remark through.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-47823361550381840662012-11-23T10:35:53.302+13:002012-11-23T10:35:53.302+13:00"What the Church needs is a modern-day Saint ..."What the Church needs is a modern-day Saint Hilda!"<br /><br />Ah yes, that'll be Hilda Bracket, no? Nothing like a Dame!<br /><br />As for Hild (sic) of Whitby, some of us Celts and Quatrodecimanians haven't forgiven her for the Roman destruction of Celtic Christianity. Not a good role model at all! Anyway, she wasn't a priest, let alone a bishop. She was a nun. Why do hardly any Anglican women discover a vocation to be a nun today?<br /><br />GaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com