tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post4399292610148295877..comments2024-03-28T22:29:52.666+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: The wrath of God was satisfied (2/4)Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75462384468474305922010-04-02T21:43:28.398+13:002010-04-02T21:43:28.398+13:00But a God who is "satisfied" by human to...But a God who is "satisfied" by human torture and cruel murder is not a God I feel comfortable worshipping. <br /><br />A God who allows the powers of darkness and humnanity to throw their worst at him but still responds with love is truely an amazing God who I am inspired to worship and serve.parkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13655723046109041979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-86784252348250877722010-04-01T22:44:23.987+13:002010-04-01T22:44:23.987+13:00Any version of penal substitution I have come acro...Any version of penal substitution I have come across has scriptural credibility in the sense that it has exponents who explain it from scripture in a believable manner, measured, for instance, by the many followers of the doctrine around the world.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19489058567494533422010-04-01T22:27:04.332+13:002010-04-01T22:27:04.332+13:00Where is this "lot of scriptural credibility&...Where is this "lot of scriptural credibility" (whatever that may mean) for "penal substitution" (whatever that may mean - for clearly you do not mean by it what everyone else means by it and preaches it, as you've indicated)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-62274271630260699762010-04-01T21:59:10.030+13:002010-04-01T21:59:10.030+13:00Christus Victor does have great merit, Parky, but ...Christus Victor does have great merit, Parky, but penal substitution, like it or not, has a lot of scriptural credibility too!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54476273930341351532010-04-01T19:07:44.622+13:002010-04-01T19:07:44.622+13:00I have wrestled with singing this song for some ye...I have wrestled with singing this song for some years now and am not at all comfortable with it as written, which is awkward because our minister is pretty keen on it. In exploring this I have come across the work of Girard and also across the Christus Victor view of the atonement. I have found a good article at http://therebelgod.com/cross3.html that contrasts Christus Victor with Penal-Substitution. I think Christus Victor has great merit. It leaves the loving character of God intact and it reflects how I spiritually respond to the cross. Maybe its time to dust off this old orthodoxy.<br /><br />Parky<br />Shropshire, UKparkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13655723046109041979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-71867461169623597422010-04-01T04:10:57.110+13:002010-04-01T04:10:57.110+13:00Quite frankly, my own view is that of Christus Vic...Quite frankly, my own view is that of Christus Victor, an ancient doctrine, highly influential in the Eastern Church, but one that has been downplayed in the West since before the Reformation. It was renewed by some progressive theologians in the West early in the last century. My understanding of Christus Victor is that any “ransom” that was paid was paid for the liberation from sin. Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection were not meant to “buy off” God (or Satan, for that matter) but to show Christ’s victory over death, hell and sin, which is now our victory too. Jesus is Savior because He became human and He defeated humanities enemies.<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NYKurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10032216707367304535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-35800591267365323482010-03-31T19:19:59.601+13:002010-03-31T19:19:59.601+13:00Hi Howard
I am not (yet) convinced by your approac...Hi Howard<br />I am not (yet) convinced by your approach here: the anger of God being wholly contained within himself.<br />But let's see how I go with the remaining two posts.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43295824679261047392010-03-31T19:18:43.212+13:002010-03-31T19:18:43.212+13:00Hi Anonymous,
Thanks for the help with my writing!...Hi Anonymous,<br />Thanks for the help with my writing!<br />"the wrath of God was satisfied" is an interpretation; part of my quest this week is to see whether it is a fair interpretation. Also an interpretation, incidentally, is "the love of God was satisfied"! What if both are appropriate?<br />Are you saying that hilasterion cannot and does not mean "propitiation"? I have always understood that that is a possible translation.<br />The BCP may not be infallible and I may not be permitted to use part of it; but I am permitted to use the part I quoted; and the part I quoted, according to the constitution of my church (ACANZP), belongs to that in which "the doctrine of Christ" is explained.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63748431714085300272010-03-31T17:32:06.507+13:002010-03-31T17:32:06.507+13:00"God took out his wrath on Christ instead of ..."God took out his wrath on Christ instead of on sinners." If we rephrase that, in line with the trinitarian perspective I advocated yesterday, it would come out more like this:-<i>God held his wrath within himself instead of taking it out on sinners</i>. <br /><br />Like it better, Peter? I do! It suggests something like we all have to do when anger arises within us over some real offence against ourselves or others. We expand our inward capacity for containing our reactions, in order to act in a way that is more considered, purposeful, and redemptive. We take the pain of evil within ourselves and hold it there so that new possibilities may be created for all involved. <br /><br />If this is what we demand of ourselves, at least in our better moments, why should we find anything compelling in an image of a God who lets his anger all hang out, whether it be on the perpetrators of evil or on an innocent victim? <br /><br />A trinitarian view, in which Christ is fully God, as are the Father and the Spirit, encourages us to moderate scriptural images of God venting his anger upon Jesus by taking them into a more comprehensive view in which the divine anger against our sin was contained within the total being of God rather than visited upon us who were its rightful objects.Howard Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822571103485207143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-83655076284755828812010-03-31T09:38:51.922+13:002010-03-31T09:38:51.922+13:001) It is very difficult to follow your writing. Yo...1) It is very difficult to follow your writing. You regularly quote people, and then when, in a comment, someone critiques it – you go on to deny agreeing with it. Here, once again, it is unclear whether you are agreeing with your quotes or holding them up as examples of the caricature of the Gospel.<br />2) hilasterion does not necessarily translate as “propitiation” – which means discussing what propitiation means (your italicised highlighting) is irrelevant. The issue is not what propitiation means, the issue is what hilasterion means.<br />3) You rightly point out “the wrath of God was satisfied” is not a teaching in the Bible but an interpretation and as Bishop NT Wright says it is a caricature and is better replaced by “the love of God was satisfied”. You yourself have now twice repeated how easily it is misunderstood. We are, hence, better to abandon it and use something that is more appropriate.<br />4) The BCP is not infallible. In fact you, as a minister, are forbidden from using some of it. In any case it is not God’s anger that is satisfied in your BCP quote.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com