tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post4553450348684742454..comments2024-03-30T00:33:32.285+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: My Prediction for the Next Presiding Bishop of TECPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-5601780226047197552013-01-06T07:29:14.125+13:002013-01-06T07:29:14.125+13:00CORRESPONDENCE ON THE CHARACTER OF THE PEOPLE OF N...CORRESPONDENCE ON THE CHARACTER OF THE PEOPLE OF NEW YORK AND/OR OTHER CITIES AND/OR STATES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is now closed.<br /><br />Dear Recent Commenters,<br />Yes, I am not letting you have the last word, but I have to draw the line somewhere and it has all been getting too 'ad hominem' albeit in an indirect way about 'citizens', 'rednecks' etc. And when a comment mentioned the disproportionate number of ... which has nothing to do with anything on this thread then I am afraid I am not prepared to put the time and effort into extracting the needless words from the reasonable words ....<br /><br />Enough!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-82189418502161509212013-01-05T08:03:08.725+13:002013-01-05T08:03:08.725+13:00Carl,
My sense from this exchange is that you do...Carl, <br /><br />My sense from this exchange is that you don't take seriously the problem of sweeping generalizations in discussions like this. We can get away with them in face to face conversation with people we know, but among strangers they tend to shut down serious conversation. Why should I take seriously someone who appears to think that the residents of New York City see themselves as superior to Midwesterners? <br /><br />I recall a comment that Tom Clancy made after the Sept. 11 attacks. He said that before then he didn't think New Yorkers belonged to the same country as he did. <br /><br />DanielDaniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55377563882206504472013-01-03T17:34:24.551+13:002013-01-03T17:34:24.551+13:00Daniel Weir
Yes, well, you know us yahoos from Re...Daniel Weir<br /><br />Yes, well, you know us yahoos from Redneckistan. We just overflow with prejudice.<br /><br />carl<br /><br />carl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-50474887990434720342013-01-03T15:29:49.620+13:002013-01-03T15:29:49.620+13:00It is refreshing for someone to own up to his own ...It is refreshing for someone to own up to his own prejudice against a rather large and varied group of people.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-11660345537853140292013-01-03T07:41:31.970+13:002013-01-03T07:41:31.970+13:00Daniel Weir
Unless I am wrong in my reading of Ca...Daniel Weir<br /><br /><i>Unless I am wrong in my reading of Carl's comment, he believes that New York City's residents see the people of places like Kansas as inferior to them.</i><br /><br />Yep. That would be the case. And that attitude was <i>perfectly</i> illustrated by Kurt's comment to which I was responding. I am sorry if you think it offensive to say so. It does however accurately represent my perception. I didn't invent the phrase 'fly-over country' after all. I just happen to live in it. <br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55357986303976226832012-12-31T03:56:47.369+13:002012-12-31T03:56:47.369+13:00In reviewing this thread, I noted that in addition...In reviewing this thread, I noted that in addition to my unfortunate first post, there have been others in which assumptions were made about whole groups of people. I read again Carl's comments about people from New York City. His assertion that they don't want to live in places like Kansas is, on the surface, unremarkable. If they wanted to live in Kansas, they could do that, so their decision not to live there is, as best, an advertisement for the joys of urban life, or, at worst, an expression of their contempt for people who live in Kansas. Unless I am wrong in my reading of Carl's comment, he believes that New York City's residents see the people of places like Kansas as inferior to them.<br /><br />I suspect that that is true about some people in NYC, but I suspect that there are people on Topeka who think they are better than New Yorkers. What seems to me to be the case for a lot of people is that they live where they grew up or where the jobs are. I suspect that there are at least a few people in New York City who would dearly love to live in Kansas if they could find the kind of job they have in New York.<br /><br />I may be accused of belaboring the point, but unexamined assumptions, which might not be a problem in real conversations, can create problems in this medium of communication. As the parent of a resident of New York City, I found Carl's comment mildly offensive.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70827934430984057052012-12-29T15:03:10.702+13:002012-12-29T15:03:10.702+13:00No problem Peter.
I am happy to leave everything...No problem Peter. <br /><br />I am happy to leave everything up to your moderation.<br /><br />No pressure! ;)<br /><br />Seriously, I won't be jumping on every little thing. I am prepared to give a fair bit of room to allow you, and "others", to get used things.<br /><br />Hope your enjoying your break.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-23983793804407972642012-12-29T07:07:39.227+13:002012-12-29T07:07:39.227+13:00(Moderated, from Shawn)
"...
I have made my...(Moderated, from Shawn)<br /><br />"...<br /><br />I have made my position clear. ANY further public attacks on myself personally that I consider defamatory will result in legal action, either through the courts or a Title D.<br /><br />...<br /><br />None of us has behaved perfectly here, ...<br /><br />Let's all turn over a new leaf for the new year and make ADU a safe place for everyone."<br /><br />[Hi Shawn, I am omitting your direct call to one commenter. Your thoughts are appreciated by me as a moderator in need of guidance, but it is precisely such direct address to other commenters in a directional/instructional manner which raises the heat here. P.]Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55200471130837375842012-12-28T10:21:35.566+13:002012-12-28T10:21:35.566+13:00Daniel,
The liberal evangelical churchmanship (to...Daniel, <br />The liberal evangelical churchmanship (to use a dated word) that Bryan Green represented has, I think, largely disappeared from the C of E. So have the Anglo-Catholics. Why do you think this is so? What do you think largely killed off or drove out the Anglo-Catholiocs?<br />Yet Holy Trinity Brompton (Green's old church) is much larger, maybe the largest Anglican church by attendance in England. & this charismatic evangelical church has warm relations with its high church bishop.<br />(P)Ecusa in the early '70s was for me the church of Dennis Bennett, Graham Pulkingham of the Church of the Redeemer, Terry Everett of Darien.<br />& then it all began to change. Where is that legacy now?<br />What do you think drove PECUSA > Ecusa > Tec to its grievous divisions and precipitous decline? Why have many thousands left, including whole dioceses?<br /><br />Support for killing unborn children (as Tec under Louie Crewe has avowed) and "same sex marriage" (a gross absurdity condemend by the Vatican) can never be adiaphora, like wearing chasubles. That's why evangelicals and Catholics have a lot in common today.<br /><br />Good manners are important, but they're not the sum of (or same as) morality. A lot of people found our Lord disagreeable at times. <br /><br />Martin<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43248994434894839862012-12-28T09:36:01.074+13:002012-12-28T09:36:01.074+13:00Hi Ron,
What I have let through, I have let throug...Hi Ron,<br />What I have let through, I have let through.<br />But what I haven't let through (to which I was referring) you haven 't seen (save for you own comment).<br />Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-36630655866232611122012-12-28T04:57:05.870+13:002012-12-28T04:57:05.870+13:00Martin,
I thought I was clear in an earlier post. ...Martin,<br />I thought I was clear in an earlier post. I disagree with people in almost every "camp" within the Communion - and beyond - on some point or other. I often am reading something by someone with whom I tend to agree and find something with which I disagree. I often agree with evangelicals, which should not be surprising. What often worries me is what worried Canon Bryan Green 40 years ago when English evangelicals and Angio-Catholics wouldn't sit together on the platform at his preaching missions. When I lived in England in 1972, I was struck by how much more the CofE was divided than than the Episcopal Church. I now know there was party division here that I wasn't seeing. Now the divisions are much more obvious. I value the evangelicals in the Church, even when I disagree with them. I resist assuming that all members of any party agree on every point and assume that I will agree on most matters with members of nearly every party. When I do disagree, I try not to be disagreeable.<br />Daniel<br />Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-15917566079463292292012-12-27T16:28:10.853+13:002012-12-27T16:28:10.853+13:00Too Late, Peter, you've already let Martin'...Too Late, Peter, you've already let Martin's egregious comments through! <br />A rather uneven outcome, But it's your blog. Holy Innocents, tomorrow!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-4598274195761222372012-12-27T12:40:07.052+13:002012-12-27T12:40:07.052+13:00Dear Martin and Ron,
I am not going to publish you...Dear Martin and Ron,<br />I am not going to publish your recently made comments in which each has a wee grizzle about the other's perceived/experienced deficiencies (or, if you prefer, surplus of (again, perceived/experienced) hubris.<br /><br />You have made your points well enough for me to improve my moderation.<br /><br />I reiterate, all commenters are welcome at ADU and all commenters are asked to comment on the issues raised on the thread, not on commenters who comment on the thread!<br /><br />Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-84293684915638504542012-12-26T21:15:37.227+13:002012-12-26T21:15:37.227+13:00Daniel writes: "Of course, I understand that ...Daniel writes: "Of course, I understand that my convictions are not ones that have been held through most of the Church's history; I don't need to be told that. I am willing to live with the labels that one might apply to people who have my convictions - I even embrace the label revisionist as quite accurate and, perhaps, even honorable..."<br /><br />Daniel, if I am wrong in what you think about 'evangelicals' (a term noew becoming very slippery and elusive - is Brian McLaren an 'evangelical' any longer?) you should correct my misapprehensions, which are based on reading your blog and your own words. As I hinted in my parenthetical comment, theological labels are very dodgy today, and most of all in the so-called evangelical world, where cultural eddies swirl around figures like McLaren, Rob Bell and Steve Chalke, who made their name as church founders and youth missionaries, not as theologians; consequently, in the media- and event-driven world of evangelicalism, they are prone to strike out in (for evangelicals) heterodox directiosn, in a way that better educated leaders like John Stott or Tim Keller never would have. <br />Your support for abortion and homosexual relations do indeed set you apart from the historical Christian mainstream, but it sits in more easily with secular, largely post-Catholic Massachusetts.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54787469987489648532012-12-26T19:05:39.766+13:002012-12-26T19:05:39.766+13:00Thanks Paul; and it may just be that the rabbis an...Thanks Paul; and it may just be that the rabbis and imams together might be able similarly to link together: Immanuel; Jesus; and, the Holy One. THAT would be a glorious miracle indeed! And is most worthy of prayerful petition in 2013. Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3849645501897532752012-12-26T18:21:51.838+13:002012-12-26T18:21:51.838+13:00Thanks Paul - will add a comment to the main part ...Thanks Paul - will add a comment to the main part of thread later.<br /><br />The link, by the way, should be http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/presiding_bishop/presiding_bishops_christmas_ev.html Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8558044637929003002012-12-26T18:14:19.554+13:002012-12-26T18:14:19.554+13:00Perhaps the Presiding Bishop reads this blog and h...Perhaps the Presiding Bishop reads this blog and has taken the criticisms of her Christmas message (and some of her previous Christmas and Easter messages) to heart. Her Christmas Eve sermon at St. George's Cathedral in Jerusalem is beautiful.<br /><br />http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/presiding_bishop/presiding_bishops_christmas_ev.htm<br /><br />Merry Christmas from Fort Worth, Texas (where it's still December 25).Paul Powershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04833212693999583069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-5687115821527871632012-12-26T12:23:34.644+13:002012-12-26T12:23:34.644+13:00Hi Ron,
I apologise to you and all commenters whom...Hi Ron,<br />I apologise to you and all commenters whom I have let down by publishing remarks which have been received as ad hominem/libellous/presumptive.<br /><br />I would like you to keep commenting.<br /><br />The standard of intellectual engagement with advanced learning is not the question for me. The question we need to be able to provide an affirmative answer to is how we engage in respectful conversation.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63716886106767188212012-12-26T11:30:24.188+13:002012-12-26T11:30:24.188+13:00Dear Peter, I, for one, respect your need to censo...Dear Peter, I, for one, respect your need to censor derogatory remarks on your own site (ADU). However, my response to 'Martin' was, I thought, entirely in keeping with his desire to denigrate my educational and theological background - in a way that was quite insulting, and not worthy of anyone - let alone a professed 'Christian' - to utter on a public web-site.<br /><br />I would prefer - if 'Martin' has insulting remarks to make about me, that he man-up, and address them to my web-site - which he criticises as 'not up to the mark' for his superior intellect and theological discernment and his particular mind-set, taste and beliefs.<br /><br />If it will help you to engage in conversation on your site only with those con/evos who are of Martin's persuasion, then please let me know, and I will desist from posting - much as I enjoy the stimulus. <br /><br />I am quite busy with the day to day process of encouraging other people on their faith journey, and could well do without the stress of having to contend with libellous remarks about my own situation.<br /><br />Peace and All Joy1 (St.Francis)Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1964332379308367182012-12-26T10:37:39.830+13:002012-12-26T10:37:39.830+13:00Hi Daniel,
I am trying to be even-handed!
I am hap...Hi Daniel,<br />I am trying to be even-handed!<br />I am happy to admit that I do not always get it right.<br /><br />To all commenters, this is primarily a blog about ANGLICAN matters, from an openly, transparent evangelical perspective. Thus all shades of Anglicanism are welcome here. Clearly I, and commenters are on a learning curve about focusing on issues and avoiding ad hominem remarks. As one who is and has been guilty of the latter, I have a lot to learn. But if we can learn to avoid ad hominem a, might we do global Anglicanism a great service?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3287590696272977212012-12-26T09:47:06.252+13:002012-12-26T09:47:06.252+13:00Peter,
Perhaps you could be as careful in moderati...Peter,<br />Perhaps you could be as careful in moderating comments that presume to know what I think of evangelicals. I responded to such an assertion and all I got was a brief lecture on ethics. Of course, I understand that my convictions are not ones that have been held through most of the Church's history; I don't need to be told that. I am willing to live with the labels that one might apply to people who have my convictions - I even embrace the label revisionist as quite accurate and, perhaps, even honorable, given the number of positions Episcopalians once took on ethical questions that have been revised. Having once defended slavery and condemned the use of contraceptives, we have revised our positions on those ethical questions. At 66, I understand that it is unlikely that I will see my convictions about same-sexuality widely shared within the Communion. I am also aware that I could be wrong, but I am content to follow the path that I discern, rightly or wrongly, to be God's will for me, and trust the future to God.<br />Merry Christmas.<br />DanielDaniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-15127860119400497732012-12-26T07:34:44.797+13:002012-12-26T07:34:44.797+13:00Hi Ron, I omitted a paragraph from your comment ab...Hi Ron, I omitted a paragraph from your comment above because it made too many presumptions about the state of another commenter. Effectively it was an ad hominem critique which did not move the discussion forward on the matter of how we can best discuss issues here. Martin's point is that discussion is most fruitful when we engage with the issue of the day rather than with the commenter in their person, the presumed theological tribe they belong to or the state of their inner being. I welcome your contributions here but I cannot accept them all in the state they are submitted. Most frequently this is because the last sentence or two lets the comment down as it moves from the issue to the person.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-28692039901025552452012-12-26T07:24:47.848+13:002012-12-26T07:24:47.848+13:00Moderated comment from Ron Smith.
"Thank you...Moderated comment from Ron Smith.<br /><br />"Thank you, Martin,for your usual excoriation of my contributions to this site. It was not entirely unexpected from you. I'm afraid i cannot summon up the bile to pay you the compliment of reciprocal criticism - especially in the season of Good Will. <br /><br /><br /><br />"Blessed are you when......" <br />"Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-17831077399210576022012-12-25T08:42:56.639+13:002012-12-25T08:42:56.639+13:00Daniel, opposition to abortion and "same-sex ...Daniel, opposition to abortion and "same-sex marriage" isn't confined to evangelicals, this is part of basic Catholic Christian ethics, and always has been. I have been an ordained Anglican for many years and I find that churchrs like TEC / Ecusa increasingly have less and less in common with historic Anglicanism, or even the Ecusa of the 1970s that I admired. The SEC and the ACC reflect Tec in many ways, and are similarly moribund or dying. I have to say I find many of the 'positions' now sanctified by TEC / Ecusa to be apostate. If that makes me a 'bigot' in your eyes, so be it. I have learnt to have broad shoulders and a thick skin. Perhaps your ethical opinions (however much at variance with thre Bible and Chrisitan tradition) cost you nothing in Massachusetts, but in the end, it is Christ's approbation I seek, not the court of liberal opinion.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-46595014950822845502012-12-25T03:22:47.927+13:002012-12-25T03:22:47.927+13:00Martin,
You are right in discerning that I do not ...Martin,<br />You are right in discerning that I do not agree with some positions that evangelicals take. I would hope we could make a distinction between that and what I think of evangelicals as sisters and brothers in Christ. It was the latter that you seemed to be claiming to know. You might note in this thread I retreated from using the epithet bigot to describe American evangelicals who, in my opinion, make shameful statements about rape, Muslims, and the causes of the Newtown murrders. It is too easy to label such brothers in Christ, and I fell into that trap. Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.com