tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post5226289611400338510..comments2024-03-28T22:29:52.666+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Our freedom in ChristPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-82968821499499163222011-07-19T07:36:33.695+12:002011-07-19T07:36:33.695+12:00"This freedom (ordaining women) is the freedo..."This freedom (ordaining women) is the freedom of the Gospel in Mission" - Dr.Peter Carrell - <br /><br />Couldn't agree with you more Peter. <br /><br />My only real remaining problem with the Church's current No-Nos is that concerning the ordination of LGBT persons - who are created in the image and likeness of God - as are women and men - and worthy of being called by God into the ministry of the Church.Father Ron Smithhttp://http/::kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-34702008094801384292011-07-19T02:32:04.901+12:002011-07-19T02:32:04.901+12:00It would be kind of sad if she was made to stand a...<i>It would be kind of sad if she was made to stand aside because her DNA didn't match the required profile!!</i><br /><br />According to this well brainwashed reply found recently at SFiF, she would have obediently stood aside if she truly believed;<br /><br /><i>“My wife was talking to a wife with marital difficulties. She made good suggestions to the woman in question. To each suggestion the retort was, 'I can’t do that. I have my pride.'<br /><br />'Then you can eat your pride.' My wife said eventually. 'In marriage there is no such thing as pride. Where there is, there is no marriage'.<br /><br />Bingo.<br /><br /><b>The natural order is unequal. Rights and Pride are impediments to salvation.</b> Frankly they are impediments to marriage and family!”</i>Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-82718301561901330242011-07-18T19:40:36.474+12:002011-07-18T19:40:36.474+12:00Hi Andrew,
I appreciate the spirit in which you en...Hi Andrew,<br />I appreciate the spirit in which you engage here - a spirit for example which can entertain the possibility that you could be wrong!<br /><br />I could be wrong too!<br /><br />Your observation about the Bible College lecturer underlines my point (to a degree): 'headship' evangelicals can end up with Jesuit-like casuistry in order to preserve male headship and affirm able women.<br /><br />It would be interesting sometime - I am not particularly pressing you to maintain this conversation, but sometime an evangelical might engage - to have some evangelicals discussing what 'youth' means. Is my son at 17 a "young man" who should not be in a youth group led and taught by a woman; or simply a "youth" and thus beyond the (apparent) compass of one reading of 1 Tim 2:12? (When would 'manhood' kick in: 18? 21? We hear about men of 30 who live at home still ...).<br /><br />When you right, "The point is establishing a pattern where in daily ministry there is a team of women and men who work together under the leadership of a man", do you ever wonder what happened to Lydia at Philippi? She seemed to have an important leadership role in that fledgling church. It would be kind of sad if she was made to stand aside because her DNA didn't match the required profile!!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-48865122231466537232011-07-18T19:17:39.257+12:002011-07-18T19:17:39.257+12:00Hi Peter,
Thanks for your responses. You don'...Hi Peter,<br /><br />Thanks for your responses. You don't need to worry about any David Ould style criticisms from me, brother :) Always happy to try and understand God's will together from the Bible.<br /><br />a) Yes 11:11 is timeless, too. I think what's going on here is Paul is reminding the men not to get too cocky about their "headship" and remind them that they need to work together with women. This doesn't reverse or abrogate what he's saying in the surrounding verses, but emphasises partnership within the context of male authority.<br /><br />b) I don't think we set aside 11:10, we ask in our culture what sign of authority could a woman have on her head? The answer is none. Some cultures, including the Orthodox here in Egypt, believe that a veil is a proper sign of authority, and so still use that sign.<br /><br />c) Now we are moving from debating the principle to debating its application to our context. I was thinking more here of the 1 Tim 2 passage about "teaching" and "authority" over men. Of the ministries you mention, only the Bible study groups would involve women having authority over men or teaching them. There's no injunction against teaching children, youth or other women. With Bible studies, there are usually a male and female leader of each group, which I think is helpful. If there is a staff member responsible for Bible studies, this is probably more an equipping and resourcing role than a teaching or authority role. But some people will draw the line differently to me. One role I think we often overlook in this debate is Bible college lecturer. I had fellow students who didn't want women priests but quite happily sat through lectures from a female lecturer. In some ways, their level of teaching and authority is higher than a vicar, since they teach future ministers. The usual answer to this is, "It's not a church context", but I'm not sure that's a satisfactory answer. <br /><br />d) I'm not sure the Primate has all that much oversight of bishops, let alone the parish priest! The point is establishing a pattern where in daily ministry there is a team of women and men who work together under the leadership of a man.<br /><br />e) I rejoice in Christian freedom, too, Peter, but I do that within the limits God has set out in Scripture. Even though many doubt the principle of male headship and there is certainly room for disagreement on its application, that doesn't make it a questionable principle. <br /><br />Feel free to come back with more comments or move on to something we can joyfully agree on. <br />Blessings,<br />AndrewAndrew Reidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-14966676264554417582011-07-18T07:35:01.924+12:002011-07-18T07:35:01.924+12:00Hi Andrew,
Some notes in response:
(a) If 11:3 i...Hi Andrew,<br /><br />Some notes in response:<br /><br />(a) If 11:3 is a timeless principle, so is 11:11.<br /><br />(b) Is not 11:10 crystal clear in Paul's mind? With a reason going beyond culture and context? Yet we set it aside!<br /><br />(c) What is your justification for limiting the principle of male headship of ministry to bishops and senior priests of parishes? All ministries of teaching involve authority and I am increasingly intrigued at the evangelical line, so often trotted out that it could be called 'standard', which you bring out here: every ministry other than bishop or senior priest is open to women. But surely consistency demands that the leader of the youth ministry, of the house groups' ministry, of Sunday School work, and even women's group ministries is headed by a man?<br /><br />(d) Conversely, might it also be consistent on your line of argument that only the Primate of an Anglican church need be a man, since all other ministries, arguably, are subordinate to that lead?<br /><br />(e) The beauty of exercising Christian freedom as I have argued for it here, is that we can freely choose the best person for any position in the church, without getting stuck on consistency of application of a questionable principle. Further, we may do so with the peace which comes through knowing that Christ is the head of the church.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-24260359194846797142011-07-18T01:40:38.983+12:002011-07-18T01:40:38.983+12:00Hi Peter,
I think your working hypothesis might ...Hi Peter, <br /><br />I think your working hypothesis might need a bit more Biblical scrutiny. The crucial question here is: What are the timeless and eternal principles the Scriptures teach us about gender and ministry which we are bound to obey, and what are the applications of those principles to the cultural context of Jesus and the apostles, which may be applied differently in our contexts? No one would disagree with you that we have adapted the modes of communicating the gospel and ordering the church to suit local contexts. What we haven't (or shouldn't have) changed is the content of the gospel and the words of Scripture. <br />My reading of the relevant texts is that the principle involved here is that men have a greater responsibilty and accountability towards God in both the home and the church. God gives glorious freedom to women, treats them with honour and respect, and calls men and women together to do the work of ministry. But the buck stops with a man. <br />In terms of your 1 Cor. 11 example, I think it teaches the principle in v.3 and then goes on to explain the application to the Corinthians' context in the following verses. Our work of interpreation is to apply the principle of authority in our own context, where head veils are not a sign of authority. You might disagree with my exegesis, but I understood this to be the standard evangelical position. You are right to question the consistency of some evangelicals of applying these texts to ordained ministries and not to other situations. <br />Applying this principle to our context today, I would suggest it means that we encourage men and women to work together in ministry, but the final authority and responsibility rests with a man. Thefore, I would argue that having a female bishop violates this principle. I would also argue that the senior priest of a parish should be a man, because of the significant teaching and pastoral authority of that role. But all other forms of ministry are open to women (including ordained ministry), as long as that principle of final authority is maintained. <br />I would add also that I don't treat this issue as a "fellowship breaking" issue. I think the Scriptures leave enough room for disagreement here that we can still love each other as brothers and sisters in Christ and disagree on this.Andrew Reidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-90574972053870528612011-07-13T16:40:58.364+12:002011-07-13T16:40:58.364+12:00I think Christians on both sides of the debate wou...I think Christians on both sides of the debate would agree with you, Rosemary!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-82885618236264853372011-07-13T13:29:03.658+12:002011-07-13T13:29:03.658+12:00True freedom is the freedom we have to choose to o...True freedom is the freedom we have to choose to obey.Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16631238218649271544noreply@blogger.com