tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post6492109009483809784..comments2024-03-28T22:29:52.666+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Still breathingPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-22880167273867331902016-08-22T18:45:40.956+12:002016-08-22T18:45:40.956+12:00Hi Shawn,
Yes,welcome to the 'Wanderer...Hi Shawn,<br /> Yes,welcome to the 'Wanderers Club".I agree with you that the current Pope errs quite a lot when he strays into political issues.He does not stand alone there, though;our own Episcopal leadership errs in this manner as well.So we find ourselves in this self imposed "paper bag";trying to find a way out (forward).<br /><br /> In fact,I find your summation of the issue very useful and interesting. I have found it very difficult, to get the core issue to remain as the topic of discussion.At the center of all this,is a very simple question---Of what value and importance is the founding articles of the <br />Church,from the Scriptures through to the 39 Articles.<br /><br /> Regards,Glen.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-38467677684541440642016-08-22T17:18:45.280+12:002016-08-22T17:18:45.280+12:00Dear Fr Ron,
Actually, you brought up the compari...Dear Fr Ron,<br /><br />Actually, you brought up the comparison today at 12.12am.<br /><br />I think the ABC was a good choice and (to use my original language) chosen by God. I prefer him to the dean of Oxford, because the dean was not chosen by God to be the provincial. Anyway, aren't there persecuted brothers and sisters to be praying for instead of this?<br /><br />NickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72221590441931511532016-08-22T17:05:50.768+12:002016-08-22T17:05:50.768+12:00Hello Ron, yes I have settled in the Anglican Chur...Hello Ron, yes I have settled in the Anglican Church, partly for pragmatic reasons, partly out of a renewed interest Celtic Christianity, and partly from a personal realisation of the importance of hiving a sense of tradition that connects us to the past.<br /><br />I think the current Pope errs quite a lot, though on political issues rather than doctrinal ones, but on this issue I believe he has it right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91498348277327152016-08-22T16:26:04.466+12:002016-08-22T16:26:04.466+12:00Shawn, I am very interested in how you are current...Shawn, I am very interested in how you are currently defending the status quo of ACANZP's Constitution. Does that mean that, after many other options of belonging to different 'churches', you are now settled with us? Praise God if you are! And Welcome! Oh, by the way (and even Nick must agree with me here: Even Popes have been known to err. Especially when there were two of them; 1 in Rome and another in Avignon. There has never been a 'Perfect Church'. <br /><br />Dear Nick, I think you are comparing the situation of our Archbishop of Canterbury with that of your Pope, Francis. However, Anglicanism doen't work in the same way. Whereas the Pope is given the title "Supreme Pontiff", there is no such animal in Anglicanism. Each Provincial Archbishop in our setup is responsible for his/her own provincial affairs - with no veto over any other province. Each province also has its very own Constitution. The ABC is given the courtesy title of "Primus inter pares" or 'First among equals'. There is no R.C. equivalent as far as I am aware. Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-39533711794973898192016-08-22T15:00:41.709+12:002016-08-22T15:00:41.709+12:00The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is, to me, not over...The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is, to me, not overly relevant to the issues of sexuality and gender. That Scripture holds a pre-eminent authority in terms of God's revelation to us is affirmed in all branches of the wider Church, Orthodox and Catholic as well as Protestant. Exactly how that authority is understood, and it's relationship to tradition and the authority of the Church, is different in each branch, but that Scripture does hold a place of an actual authority and not merely a guide, is something the whole catholic church affirms.<br /><br />Thus, holding the issues of sexuality and gender up to to the light of Scripture is not an example of Sola Scriptura, but an example of catholic Christianity.<br /><br />If we (Anglicans) were to replace the authority of Scripture with private revelations and subjective opinions as to which way the wind of the Spirit is blowing, we would not only be opening ourselves up to doctrinal and moral anarchy, we would also be placing ourselves well outside the boundaries of the wider catholic Church. Such a position would be closer to the radical ideas of the Quakers than to any understanding of basic Christian orthodoxy and practice.<br /><br />Reforming the Church, where and when it needs reform, is a good thing. It does not however mean that the Church has to accept every possible reform that is proposed. The Church must practice discernment, and it must do so in the light of God's revelation to us in Scripture, tradition and reason, and not at the whims of the modern world. If we were to try to keep pace with modernity, we would be changing our doctrines every other week. Moreover, Western modernity is not a repository of all things good and true. There are many things about modernity that Christians can rightly be critical of, and like everything else, it requires critical discernment by the Church, not uncritical acceptance.<br /><br />Loving people who are different to us does not require that we affirm everything they do, let alone affirming those things God considers a sin. True Christian agape is far more robust and realistic than the modern notions of uncritically affirming people and what they do. Christ requires us to love people despite their sins as we are sinners ourselves. Christ does not require that we affirm peoples sins in order to love them.<br /><br />Finally, I note that the current Pope is definitely not on side with the ideas of transgenderism.<br /><br />Pope Francis Slams Transgenderism: 'Annihilation of Man as Image of God'<br /><br />http://www.dailywire.com/news/8129/pope-francis-slams-transgenderism-annihilation-man-james-barrettAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-78823299306918738862016-08-22T13:30:55.389+12:002016-08-22T13:30:55.389+12:00Hi Peter,
Thanks,you are quite right in ...<br /> Hi Peter,<br /> Thanks,you are quite right in your summation.<br /><br /> Ron,thanks also, for your suggestion,I will go tomorrow morning and smell our rose "PEACE".A lovely old fashion rose,do you know it?<br /><br /> Regards,Glen.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8194444001758005512016-08-22T13:24:25.737+12:002016-08-22T13:24:25.737+12:00Fr Ron
God appointed Justin Welby as the provinci...Fr Ron<br /><br />God appointed Justin Welby as the provincial.<br /><br />NickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-46817918578058040552016-08-22T13:06:31.014+12:002016-08-22T13:06:31.014+12:00Hi Andrei,
I agree with you, that usi...Hi Andrei,<br /><br /> I agree with you, that using the Courts is not the ideal way;but I did not open this can of worms.However,The Gay and Lesbian Clergy Anti-Discrimination Society Inc.v The Bishop of Auckland establishes the lengths to which,some of those promoting this issue will go.The society lost the case on Constitutional grounds.At (16):Archbishop Richardson gave detailed evidence as to the Constitution of the ACANZP and as to the "doctrines or rules or the established customs"of the Anglican Church.<br /><br /> Now,all that is put aside and they can quite happily talk of changing the Constitution and Doctrine to suit themselves.If it comes to a point where legal action is necessary,the ACANZP will have become a CLAYTON'S CHURCH,a church where you don't really have a Church.we don't want to become another T.E.C.;where attendance numbers are rapidly falling and their seminaries closing.The T.E.C. have a millions of dollars pursuing the Orthodox Anglicans;and have lost their case in South Carolina.<br /><br />Regards,Glen.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-69642796345076619622016-08-22T12:56:23.170+12:002016-08-22T12:56:23.170+12:00Dear Ron, Glen and Andrei
Far be it for me to come...Dear Ron, Glen and Andrei<br />Far be it for me to come between an alliance between Ron and Andrei against litigious action.<br />But I understand Glen's point to be much less about going to court and much more about the integrity of ACANZP in respect of its willingness to understand its own constitution and the consequences of being a church constituted in the way it is constituted rather than in another way.<br />I presume Ron that you do wish to belong to a church which says (via its core documents) what it means and means what it says?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43711991344104235692016-08-22T12:42:56.751+12:002016-08-22T12:42:56.751+12:00Dear Glen, has it ever crossed your mind that, in ...Dear Glen, has it ever crossed your mind that, in any court action you might be intent on making against any ACANZP' affirmative action on Same Sex Blessings, would actually be in against the spirit of the N.Z. Government's own legislation which allows for Same Sex Marriage. Methinks you will be wasting your (or anybody else's) money on your planned litigation. Wake up and smell the roses, Glen!<br />"They will know you're my disciples by your love" i.e. not your litigation! Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41465421805339639592016-08-22T12:11:07.786+12:002016-08-22T12:11:07.786+12:00My honest answer is that I would be joining with a...<i>My honest answer is that I would be joining with anybody else who will issue proceedings in the N.Z.High Court challenging ACANZP under The Church of England Empowering Act </i><br /><br />And in so doing will contribute to alienating people from the Church and the Anglican church in particular <br /><br />Using the courts is not the way Glenn <br /><br />1 Corinthians 6:1-8Andreinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-49671232126385395482016-08-22T11:32:34.854+12:002016-08-22T11:32:34.854+12:00Hi Ron,
My honest answer is that I would b...<br />Hi Ron,<br /><br /> My honest answer is that I would be joining with anybody else who will issue proceedings in the N.Z.High Court challenging ACANZP under The Church of England Empowering Act sec.7:INHERENT JURISDICTION OF THE CIVIL COURT NOT EXCLUDED----Nothing in this Act contained shall annul,limit or abridge the inherent power of the Supreme Court to prohibit anything purporting to be done under this Act on the ground that it not a bona fide exercise of the powers conferred in this Act.<br />As I have said previously,dismal leadership of the Church has opened a Pandora's Box which will never be sorted out in our life time and will waste thousands of dollars on legal expenses.<br /><br /> Regards,Glen.<br /><br />Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-17707677028441741842016-08-22T11:09:26.309+12:002016-08-22T11:09:26.309+12:00That would be appreciated thanks GlenThat would be appreciated thanks GlenPeter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-35311199711359987452016-08-22T11:03:45.917+12:002016-08-22T11:03:45.917+12:00
Hi Peter,
I have a copy of the submission...<br />Hi Peter,<br /> I have a copy of the submission made by a well known Barrister and official in the the Church,here in Auckland.Happy to post it to you if you would like it.I see you are one of the smart kids that graduated in law from the Bush University.Never did myself,got mine at a historic village in outback Aussie.You know,one of those blank forms where you have to fill your name in.<br /><br />regards,Glen.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70643898620273810492016-08-22T11:03:38.668+12:002016-08-22T11:03:38.668+12:00Dear Glen; a straight answer please: If GS 2018 mo...Dear Glen; a straight answer please: If GS 2018 moves in a way contrary to your wishes on Same Sex Blessings, will you walk away? Constitutions can be changed!<br /><br />Dear Nick; you do admit than that sometimes God chooses a person in authority who does not always meet your stadards of propriety or suitability!<br /><br />"My ways are not your ways; nor my thoughts your thoughts!"<br /><br />Blessings, Fr.RonFather Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74939912598955443362016-08-22T10:29:48.437+12:002016-08-22T10:29:48.437+12:00Hi Ron,
I wrote :"I either accept the...Hi Ron,<br /><br /> I wrote :"I either accept the Doctrine of the Church,or I walk away".However,I have no problem with the Doctrine of the Church;in fact I wholeheartedly endorse it and will do my utmost to defend it.<br /><br /> I did not write:"if I cannot live with what G.S. does,I will walk away".It must be abundantly clear by now,my total opposition to what can be alleged to be,the UNCONSTITUTIONAL and HIGHLY IRREGULAR manner, in which G.S. appears to be trying to circumvent Paragraphs 1,5 & 6 of the Fundamental Provisions of ACANZP'S Constitution; in the progression of THEIR Way Forward.But, is it GOD'S WAY FORWARD????<br /><br /> Bishop Selwyn set the Church up in an excellent manner with a Constitution which could be revised in 1992; to allow for the Church to meet the various cultures of Her Parishioners.But that was far different from the<br />present manipulations being undertaken.The 1992 revision did not affect the Legitimate Doctrine as defined in the Constitution.The 1992 revision of the Constitution and The Church of England Empowering Act 1928 both reinforce the 1857 prohibition of ALTERING or DIMINISHING the 1857 definition and sources of our Doctrine.<br /><br /> Regards,Glen.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-83031228731127199312016-08-22T08:46:10.388+12:002016-08-22T08:46:10.388+12:00Fr Ron,
I made my comment in the context of a dea...Fr Ron,<br /><br />I made my comment in the context of a dean seemingly at odds with his provincial. I imagine the provincial will win. To answer your question, however, the Pope would not have been my first choice; he is too much St John XXIII and not enough St John Paul II for me. Nevertheless, I have no doubt that he is the correct man for the job at this time and a supreme pontiff with whom I am happy to be in full communion.<br /><br />NickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-76047656809080406812016-08-22T06:51:47.535+12:002016-08-22T06:51:47.535+12:00Hi Ron
My understanding of the Church of England E...Hi Ron<br />My understanding of the Church of England Empowering Act is that we are not free to change the "Fundamental Provisions" of the Constitution (as, indeed, we did not when we revised the Constitution in 1992 ... we revised the bits of it which we could revise). So, Glen and my argument is that Constitutional change is a "big thing" because it would involve going to Parliament ...<br /><br />But others with actual mainline university law qualifications (mine is from the University of the Bush) might think differently!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-80241122099997157152016-08-22T00:12:16.913+12:002016-08-22T00:12:16.913+12:00Dear Nick. I've just noticed your comment - to...Dear Nick. I've just noticed your comment - to the effect that "God always chooses the right leaders". You would affirm then, without qualification, that this has happened with the election of Pope Francis, whose openness to change has your Coillege of Cardinals quite worried. As Good Pope John XXIII insisted, we must uphold the adage 'Semper Reformanda'. Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-78526768156522715702016-08-22T00:06:47.003+12:002016-08-22T00:06:47.003+12:00This, then, Peter, may be a matter of urgent atten...This, then, Peter, may be a matter of urgent attention for our House of Bishops and for the General Synod - if they intend to go forward with changing our Constitution in any way - which, of course, they are at liberty to do - as has been done before.Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-15757366657145119762016-08-21T21:38:30.222+12:002016-08-21T21:38:30.222+12:00Hi Ron
The Church of England Empowering Act is a N...Hi Ron<br />The Church of England Empowering Act is a NZ Act of Parliament which governs the life of our church in certain ways, with particular respect to our potential to change (or not) our constitution.<br />Notwithstanding your confidence in the Holy Spirit, its movement in our church in a direction congenial to your theological outlook may be quenched unless the Act is changed!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1035597110497270012016-08-21T21:12:19.444+12:002016-08-21T21:12:19.444+12:00Dear Glen, even the "Church of England Empowe...Dear Glen, even the "Church of England Empowering Act" cannot prevent the working of the Holy Spirit in the ACANZP. We are now no longer ruled over by the Church of England - having already defined ourselves by the unique status of a 3-Tikanga Church - something the C. of E. has never envisaged and may not even understand. This is the Church ministering to needs in the local situation. <br /><br />The Anglican Church here has already shown its pioneering independence - by initiating, for instance, lay representation in our Synods, and allowing for woman priests and bishops - well before (maybe even inspiration for) the C. of E. - all according to the will of God as discerned by the local Church Leaders.<br /><br />A Church which does not keep up with the times could be considered moribund if not actually deceased. I do not want to be part of such a Church.<br /><br />Whatever happens at General Synod 2018, it will be the will and purpose of ACANZP to follow the Holy Spirit's call to minister to All and Sundry - All whom the Lord will call to Baptism into Christ and His Body, the Church. Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61090850714094442562016-08-21T20:44:48.065+12:002016-08-21T20:44:48.065+12:00Hi Glen
(Thanks, by the way, for written material ...Hi Glen<br />(Thanks, by the way, for written material posted to me).<br />Yes, I understand all that, and I do not know if our hierarchy (i.e. bishops and chancellors) do understand the "box" they have opened, but it would only be fair if we cannot settle our affairs in unity that we allow for two different streams of Kiwi Anglicanism to emerge from this present division. To which stream your family's bequest belongs is a fair matter to be concerned about, but I am at this point trying to deal with the principle of the matter, not the details!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-62530291876636441322016-08-21T19:55:14.365+12:002016-08-21T19:55:14.365+12:00Hi Peter,
Quite simply,the ACANZP is a l...Hi Peter,<br /> Quite simply,the ACANZP is a legally constituted "body", recognized in N.Z. Law both through it's Constitution and The Church of England Empowering Act 1928.As such,it is required by LAW to fulfill it's legal obligations;the same as any secular organisation.<br /><br /> Jesus said:Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's:Matt 22-17/22. Here,the ACANZP has a double obligation;She must meet Her legal obligations to Caesar, while fulfilling Her Ordained Mission.Therefore,it is Her legal obligation to abide by Her Constitution.<br /><br /> Our family has donated land to the Church,on which a Church now stands.The DEED OF GIFT is quite clear that the land was donated for the purpose of proclaiming the Doctrine of the Church as defined in the Constitution 1857. If the Church wants to change it's doctrine,they are no longer entitled to the property.<br /><br /> This discussion, probably better belonged in your blog about the Church v State;but here it is.Through their dismal leadership,the Bishops have opened a PANDORA'S BOX and allowed G.S. to take us into the dessert for another 40 years.<br /><br /> We raised the question to the Ma Whea Commission regarding the relationship of the ACANZP to the rest of the Anglican Communion.Quite simply,I would argue that the ACANZP can never move outside of the Doctrine as defined in Paragraphs 1,5&6 of the Constitution 1857.<br /><br /> Therefore I would argue that anybody wishing to use the term "ANGLICAN";would have to clearly distinguish themselves from the ACANZP.<br /><br /> Regards,Glen.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-65072713662535711412016-08-21T16:47:39.601+12:002016-08-21T16:47:39.601+12:00"After all, the CofE itself may change in dir...<i>"After all, the CofE itself may change in directions you and I disagree with and surely it would be "Anglican" for a church to decide to follow such changes."</i><br /><br />A <i>"church"</i> may do as it wills after all a <i>"church"</i> is only a building of wood, brick or stone and in the town where I live there are many <i>"churches"</i> that have already been converted to profane use - homes, coffee houses and one has even become a nightclub <br /><br />Soon there will be a few more Anglican <i>"churches"</i> finding a new life devoid of worship - in the USA there is apparently an Episcopalian church that found new life as a brothel. <br /><br />The Faithful will endure though<br /><br />Andreinoreply@blogger.com