tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post6637378534887879784..comments2024-03-29T13:30:56.758+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Resourcing discussion on SSB, submissions for 17 NovemberPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger132125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-73971788859095763012017-11-01T23:49:53.806+13:002017-11-01T23:49:53.806+13:00Glen. All the best at West Hamilton. May y'all...Glen. All the best at West Hamilton. May y'all be very happy together. Blessings.<br />In the meantime, may we celebrate with all the Saints - living and departed.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-31123977744891238222017-11-01T22:01:15.261+13:002017-11-01T22:01:15.261+13:00Hi Glen
I do not equate Arianism with kindness to ...Hi Glen<br />I do not equate Arianism with kindness to gays and lesbians.<br />We should contend against heretical views.<br />That is why the Catholic church is in turmoil over the question of giving communion to remarried divorcees. Some Catholics see such action as supporting heresy.<br />However one Catholic's heresy does not seem to be another Anglican's heresy: we seem quite happy to distribute communion inclusively!<br />I am quite happy to be viewed dimly by yourself when I show my hesitation at making any sexual relationship the fulcrum on which we bend the church towards schism.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87041372657213686052017-11-01T21:20:43.954+13:002017-11-01T21:20:43.954+13:00Hi Peter, Then perhaps the Church Fathers should h...<br /> Hi Peter, Then perhaps the Church Fathers should have walked away and let Arius take the day. It would seem that he has won out in the long run. So are you suggesting that Christ does not want us to "contend" for His Holy Writ; against heretical views. At least with the West Hamilton Community Church, one knows what they believe; but with the ACANZP, it simply depends upon which way the wind blows. I respectfully suggest that it might be prudent for you to read the "seven letters to the seven Churches again.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-73171162445707402782017-11-01T12:23:13.059+13:002017-11-01T12:23:13.059+13:00Hi Glen
Jesus may well not be amused.
I am sure he...Hi Glen<br />Jesus may well not be amused.<br />I am sure he is not amused that we play fast and loose with Scripture re ethics (since he did not do that himself).<br />I am sure he is not amused that his followers are making so much of an issue he never directly addressed, involving people we can be sure he would have been very merciful to if we had stories of such encounters.<br />(I am not saying, by the way, to head off possible criticism at the pass, that individuals reading here and/or commenting here are not being merciful as individuals. I am saying that across Anglican and other churches we are giving the matters such recurring attention that the question is raised, to my mind, whether we are collectively being merciful.)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8218429635329478562017-11-01T06:52:52.881+13:002017-11-01T06:52:52.881+13:00Glen, did you have any particular clip in mind? Ra...Glen, did you have any particular clip in mind? Ravi Zacharias has many on homosexuality.<br /><br />Bowman<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54671760769079434382017-10-31T20:41:50.960+13:002017-10-31T20:41:50.960+13:00Dear Glen, don't you think that Jesus might ra...Dear Glen, don't you think that Jesus might rather be moved to say: "We are not a museum - but a Word in process" ?Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-77065045941172097752017-10-31T18:48:54.623+13:002017-10-31T18:48:54.623+13:00
Hi Peter,
A splendid clip on youtube: Rav...<br />Hi Peter,<br /> A splendid clip on youtube: Ravi Zacharias on Christians and homosexuality; is worth a watch.<br /><br /> <br /> <br /> Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-90447861494432404042017-10-31T17:15:04.683+13:002017-10-31T17:15:04.683+13:00Douglas Campbell explains the basics. And he's...Douglas Campbell explains the basics. And he's fun to watch--<br /><br />https://tinyurl.com/yab8tsj6<br /><br />https://tinyurl.com/y8td6dkm<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-48778029893334225292017-10-31T15:53:02.417+13:002017-10-31T15:53:02.417+13:00Hi Peter,
"OUR Church" just happ...<br />Hi Peter,<br /> "OUR Church" just happens by both the SCRIPTURES and Her Constitution to belong to our LORD JESUS CHRIST, perhaps we should ask what He thinks: He may reply that "We are not a amused".Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-16237331481081123452017-10-31T14:46:40.690+13:002017-10-31T14:46:40.690+13:00Hi Glen
Accepting that God's intended will for...Hi Glen<br />Accepting that God's intended will for creation is for heterosexuality, that is, that men will be attracted to women and women to men, with the not inestimable advantage that this leads to the continuation of the human race, then homosexuality is a consequence of the Fall. So is promiscuity, prostitution and pornography; as well as divorce.<br /><br />Consequently, humanity has found it useful to have various laws, customs and rules of etiquette to somehow regulate sexual desire which always threatens to run rampant in an unhelpful, unhealthy and (often) unhappy direction. All such regulatory effort is intended to mitigate the Fall but has no power to reverse it.<br /><br />Some regulatory intentions are non-controversial (e.g. we have tended across humanity to prefer that prostitution is conducted as discreetly as possible which often means in certain zones of a city and not others) and others not so (should The Last Tango in Paris be categorised as R18 or R20? Under what circumstances might civil law and canonical law provide for remarriage after divorce ... still being argued in some churches!)<br /><br />In the case of the consequences of the Fall re sexuality, the Christian tradition has been very keen on marriage for those who feel unsuited to singleness. Not just "better to marry than to burn" but also better to marry than to resort to promiscuity, pornography or sex with prostitutes. For those thus able to marry, marriage is both the living out of the creation ideal AND the working out of the reality of sexual desire.<br /><br />Whether or not we subscribe to a view that homosexuality is a gift from God, surely we must subscribe to a reasonable and just approach to supporting people who have the same strength of desire as "red blooded" heterosexuals yet who are unable to marry a member of the opposite sex?<br /><br />If the answer to that question were that we make some provision in the life of the church for SSB I do not see that that necessarily involves any denial of the Fall etc.<br /><br />It is also possible that the answer to that question is that singleness is necessary and the burden of so living is a cross to be borne.<br /><br />A question out church is asking of itself is whether we might be hospitable to Anglicans holding such different views.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60460473967477683972017-10-31T13:23:01.654+13:002017-10-31T13:23:01.654+13:00Hi Peter,
I have no wish to appear obstina...<br />Hi Peter,<br /> I have no wish to appear obstinate on this issue but the claim of "innate Homosexuality", in the sense that God created man that way from the beginning; runs (as Bowman blogs) contrary to everything that I KNOW, ie have a relationship with.I have a brother who is gay and have had many chats with him (and his friends), about it. But their testimony contradicts the only feasible way, in which, I can see the Creation working. If God did not create Adam as being bi-sexual,where did this desire spring from.He gave him Eve, with whom he could fulfill the commandment to populate the earth.Adam was created perfect, so the claim of him bearing the innate homosexual desire, prior to the fall appears to as a nonsense.Or else, if it is a genuine part of man; the Scriptures should tell us so;but they don't.<br /> If they were not present in Adam and Eve at the time of their being made in the "image and likeness of God"; then it must have been at the time of the "fall".That being so, how does one claim that this sexual difference is "a gift from GOD". It is simply part of "broken man". This is what I have referred to as the "Adamic Archetype images in in our Spirits.<br /> This is what the "healing POWER of Christ and the Holy Spirit is about". Sometimes they remove the issue completely, and sometimes for reasons best known to only them, they partially remove it or they leave us with it;(Paul"'s Thorn in his side). Our son said he use to pray that the <br />hospital toilet pan would not be full of blood,when he went; then he would sing " He has the whole wide world in His Hands".The Doctors wanted to do horrific surgery on him but he refused.He truly believed Christ had healed him; but that it was not going to be instant.So now with Belief in Christ,medication,strict diet and exercise,he is back on top of it.<br /> So,what do you base your belief in the testimony of your gay friends on? I do not say this lightly; but,sadly,perhaps it is the cross that they must carry.<br /> <br /> Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-21293396695645101002017-10-30T17:37:08.445+13:002017-10-30T17:37:08.445+13:00Dear Peter. I am retiring from this conversation, ...Dear Peter. I am retiring from this conversation, realising that some people will never understand the difficulties faced by LGBTI Christians whose faith enables them to believe that their inner sexual difference is a gift from God. It is a gift with responsibilities attached which does not, however, merit mere speculation from those intent on advising how to become what they see as 'normal' - in other words, to be the same as them. God's Creation is more wonderfully varied than some can understand - from the viewpoint of a mediaeval and out-dated biological (and. maybe, spiritual) perspective. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60613226130054837842017-10-30T17:17:04.832+13:002017-10-30T17:17:04.832+13:00Peter, I see much daylight streaming between your ...Peter, I see much daylight streaming between your 2:59 and Father Ron's 10:28. Two interesting approaches...<br /><br />Your typology at 10:35 and 3:06 may frame a comparative discussion that is more worthwhile than the collision of ideals with which you are understandably impatient.<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-35278472836567200602017-10-30T15:06:50.849+13:002017-10-30T15:06:50.849+13:00Hi Bowman (at 2.55 pm)
I cannot possibly comment :...Hi Bowman (at 2.55 pm)<br />I cannot possibly comment :)<br />Seriously: it is a construal of the text because the interim proposal gives considerable flexibility to the bishops; but it also takes account of the likelihood that some bishops will recall that at our last GS, an earlier (and rejected proposal) offered a draft service of blessing which some critics marked down as too much like our rites of marriage; and the likelihood that in some dioceses of mixed viewpoints, it is reasonable to think that a smart bishop will take care to authorise a service which in significant ways looks not like a marriage rite.<br />But if your question is, "Am I aware of what bishops are prospectively thinking?" the answer is, No.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40897428246034339062017-10-30T14:59:41.029+13:002017-10-30T14:59:41.029+13:00Thanks Bowman.
I see through the glass more clearl...Thanks Bowman.<br />I see through the glass more clearly!<br />My point - more or less above - then is that while heterosexuals might have no experience of homosexuality by which to understand it experientially, we should be able to do a bit of analogous thinking.<br />If Man falls in love with Woman and vice versa, it analogously could be understood when Man 1 falls in love with Man 2 and vice versa.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-48523614431678382252017-10-30T14:55:37.672+13:002017-10-30T14:55:37.672+13:00"...some bishops might authorise a service wh..."...some bishops might authorise a service which looked extremely like the marriage rite for a man and a woman, some bishops might refrain from authorising anything, and some bishops might follow your para..."<br /><br />Peter, is this typology based on your construal of the text or your knowledge of the bishops?<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75539566226086219612017-10-30T14:46:14.784+13:002017-10-30T14:46:14.784+13:00"Glen, you are presuming here to pontificate ..."Glen, you are presuming here to pontificate on a subject you have no experience of 'from the inside'...You need to speak to an intrinsically homosexual person who has lived with the reality of their innate sexual identity before you state claiming to 'know the mind of Christ' on this particular wide-spread condition of a class of human beings."<br /><br />"If something is too ineffable and private for a public to understand from common knowledge, then how can it be the basis of an obligation of that public?"<br /><br />Peter, Father Ron's 10:28 raised a fascinating and practical question that my 10:49 restates in a more general form. <br /><br />It is one thing not to contradict another person's self-understandings as a matter of politesse; it is something else to be obliged to believe and act on them on the basis of inaccessible evidence that contradicts accessible evidence. If Glen should reply that honesty obliges him to speak only from what he can know (eg the scriptures) and not from what he can never know (eg homosexuality "from the inside"), then how might Ron reply? <br /><br />Many readers, evangelical or catholic, will already have met a cognate question in other religious contexts: *supposing that a visionary reports an unique unmediated vision of God, the BVM, etc, what weight should the Church give to that report as support for an *obligatory* practise or belief?*<br /><br />BW <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-51806521958884195602017-10-30T14:00:17.591+13:002017-10-30T14:00:17.591+13:00Hi Peter,
I am completely okay with that...<br />Hi Peter, <br /> I am completely okay with that.Have received worse sledging on the pitch; from memory, my parent's marriage was brought into question. But as a <br /> fellow cricket nut,you would well know about those "gentlemanly chats.<br /><br /> Dear Father Ron and I are never going to agree on a few matters; because we start our conversations from different foundations. Emotions and experience are difficult bed mates with reason; particuarly, if you trying to get them to sleep. <br /><br /> The problem with accepting the proposition that some people are born homosexual and some are not; is, without the wisdom of Solomon,who says which is which.<br /><br /> Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91712843231601132142017-10-30T10:58:57.036+13:002017-10-30T10:58:57.036+13:00Hi Bowman
Sorry, must be a bit thick today, but yo...Hi Bowman<br />Sorry, must be a bit thick today, but your latest comment needs some exposition for me to make sense of it!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10942536739185427502017-10-30T10:49:19.818+13:002017-10-30T10:49:19.818+13:00If something is too ineffable and private for a pu...If something is too ineffable and private for a public to understand from common knowledge, then how can it be the basis of an obligation of that public? <br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-56598509984930092192017-10-30T10:42:16.695+13:002017-10-30T10:42:16.695+13:00Dear Glen and Ron
Ron: I am not particularly happ...Dear Glen and Ron<br /><br />Ron: I am not particularly happy with your latest comment - there is no need to invoke +Brian T as some kind of comparison to Glen who has never made that connection between sexuality and disaster. Nor is there need to impugn Glen's quite reasonable question re the power of Christ as having any intention other than quest for the truth.<br /><br />Glen: I am publishing Ron's comment which in my view is unfair to the content of your comment on the grounds that it nevertheless gives insight into how some ideas/thoughts/questions, otherwise well intended, can be received by those whose life experience is different from the one making comment.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40897199469235509942017-10-30T10:35:31.385+13:002017-10-30T10:35:31.385+13:00Hi Bowman
My sense of time running out is that tim...Hi Bowman<br />My sense of time running out is that time is running out. BUT: there is a significant meeting coming up on 11 November when the GS reps of the seven NZ Dioceses (= Tikanga Pakeha) meet to discuss the interim proposal. We shall see what is said there.<br /><br />Yes, we all pray but my talk of prayers for a couple are in line with your para:<br />"An offering of prayers for a new couple that has and that claims no relationship to the rite of solemnisation in the BCP is actually a new proposal, indeed a *counterplan* to the old one. In one way it makes sense: it cannot possibly affect the meaning of the received rite, and these prayers can entrust the goods of relationship to God in a way that the received rite did not do. At this "present time," is your church open to this?"<br /><br />As I understand the proposal before us, if nothing changed and it was agreed to, then some bishops might authorise a service which looked extremely like the marriage rite for a man and a woman, some bishops might refrain from authorising anything, and some bishops might follow your para.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-36900933482472714332017-10-30T10:29:28.898+13:002017-10-30T10:29:28.898+13:00You're welcome Peter! And the human agent thro...You're welcome Peter! And the human agent through whom the miraculous sign occurred is known to me reasonably well. He has had a beautiful healing ministry for many many years. The crux of course (sic) is "What if there is no healing?" Just so that wee article I've emailed to you by way of outlining a living, theologically robust answer.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-90402198473867007312017-10-30T10:28:40.655+13:002017-10-30T10:28:40.655+13:00"Glen Young said...
Hi Peter,
Are you sayin... "Glen Young said...<br /><br />Hi Peter,<br /><br />Are you saying that there are people, who's homosexuality is beyond the POWER of Christ and the Holy Spirit, to CHANGE????<br /><br />October 30, 2017 at 7:48 AM"<br /><br />Glen, you are presuming here to pontificate on a subject you have no experience of 'from the inside'. Please do not emulate the likes of so-called Bishop Brian Tamaki, who shames us all with the statement that the latest natural disasters are all attributable to the incidence and practice of homosexuality.<br /><br />You need to speak to an intrinsically homosexual person who has lived with the reality of their innate sexual identity before you state claiming to 'know the mind of Christ' on this particular wide-spread condition of a class of human beings. I find your claim here to be abusive of all those people who have learned to live with their God-given sexual identity - among them Clergy and Religious in the Church of God. Please do not cause more people to reject the Church on account of your false assumptions.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3936839889550200412017-10-30T10:22:54.874+13:002017-10-30T10:22:54.874+13:00Hi Jonathan
A declarative judgement sounds like a ...Hi Jonathan<br />A declarative judgement sounds like a great idea!<br />If talking to your Dunedin GS reps (who are due to meet as "IDC" on Sat 11 November in Wellington) please mention it to them; and I will add it to things to say then ...Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.com