tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post6676301567690217858..comments2024-03-28T22:29:52.666+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: About that submission ...Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger187125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10391043744731153642017-11-30T06:23:09.590+13:002017-11-30T06:23:09.590+13:00Nick, the tiny one works for me, but if you still ...Nick, the tiny one works for me, but if you still have trouble with it, try the full length URL--<br /><br />http://www.biblicalchristianworldview.net/documents/The-Unconditional-Freeness-of-Grace-James-B-Torrance.pdf<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91760814325335272422017-11-29T21:40:52.006+13:002017-11-29T21:40:52.006+13:00Hi Bowman; I’m having trouble with the link. Can y...Hi Bowman; I’m having trouble with the link. Can you check it?<br /><br />NickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8664010843981242132017-11-28T12:50:31.705+13:002017-11-28T12:50:31.705+13:00Hi Jonathon,
Your comments were interesting.I und...<br />Hi Jonathon,<br /><br />Your comments were interesting.I understand that Anthropology raised more questions for me, than it ever answered;so now I divide things into three categories,(1) things which truly matter, (2) things which are interesting and (3) things which don't really matter at all.Salvation (1) Who Cain married (2)<br /><br />My tussle is not with Ron;but with the leadership of the ACANZP; who wish to trample on the legitimate Doctrine,as defined in Her Constitution.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19777780172039618062017-11-27T20:29:45.452+13:002017-11-27T20:29:45.452+13:00Jonathan, I appreciate your intervention in my tus...Jonathan, I appreciate your intervention in my tussle with Glen - which I find difficult to navigate in view of our very different assumptions.<br /><br />However, I do take up your point about the problem of Cain's having to raise up children through a possible liaison with his biological sister - with all that this might raise up about such relationships. My own understanding is that there were other humans created at the same time. the reason we don't hear of them in the scriptures is that the real point at issue was rebellion on the part of A. & E.<br /><br />While not being a 'sola Scriptura' advocate, I do recognise certain passages of Scripture as having the 'ring of truth' - meaning that they are pivotal to the redemption theme running through the Bible. For me, the Gospels are the most important Scriptures, speaking, as they do, of human contact with the Incarnate Christ - albeit with cultural connotations present.<br /><br />I've long been a believer (from Paul's testimony mainly) in 'Paradise as a type of 'waiting room for the departed', which Jesus visited for the 3 days between his death and resurrection. There must have been a purpose for this. Was it a period of spiritual regeneration for dead human beings, where their Adamic nature was translated into their 'heavenly nature (pace: 1 Cor.15) preparing them for the Second Coming of Christ in glory? Paul also speaks of "the dead in Christ, being raised first" in 1Thess.4:13-18.<br /><br />In all of this, Jonathan, I am (at the age of 88) keenly aware of the FACT that "Now, we see through a glass darkly; then, we shall see Him face to face" - a glorious prospect for us who believe.<br /><br />Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-48688232083681662762017-11-27T16:44:54.958+13:002017-11-27T16:44:54.958+13:00Fr Ron, I wouldn't have a problem if Adam'...Fr Ron, I wouldn't have a problem if Adam's biological sons married his biological daughters, but am happy with other explanations, and, with Glen, happy that I don't have a definitive answer! Personally, I would see Sola Scriptura as understanding scripture literally - i.e. understanding passages in the manner that their own literature demands, which will take into consideration literary style, what original audiences understood (which may require a little in addition to Sola Scriptura), how other parts of scripture reflect on any given passage, and which covenant was in operation at the time of writing. That might not be far from your understanding too.Jonathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72209909868606722552017-11-27T16:31:06.798+13:002017-11-27T16:31:06.798+13:00I think I might have missed something, Glen, in yo...I think I might have missed something, Glen, in your query, but I wonder if Fr Ron was referring to Genesis 1:27 (and, on the topic of Paradise, "For all the Saints" refers to the progression from the sweet calm of Paradise to the Yet more glorious day). However one views the Things-to-come it will be wonderful when God's kingdom comes on earth as it is in heaven!Jonathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-29574704136781181612017-11-27T11:13:08.438+13:002017-11-27T11:13:08.438+13:00Thanks, Nick, for your 8:54 on my 2:11. My allusio...Thanks, Nick, for your 8:54 on my 2:11. My allusion to St John 9 draws attention to Jesus's *covenantal* action where others were trying and failing to make *contractual* sense of a birth defect. Reflection on this contrast between covenant and contract is essential to biblical theology in its Reformed mode, and among systematicians, it is a specialty of the House of Torrance. To see how it works, you might compare what Phillip Cary said about the logic of *sacramental faith* with this by Robert Torrance--<br /><br />https://tinyurl.com/yca9fuwr<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-13662234348105586232017-11-25T21:00:39.866+13:002017-11-25T21:00:39.866+13:00Hi Ron,
"Every Human being is created in the...Hi Ron,<br /><br />"Every Human being is created in the image and likeness of God" Nov.235th @ 12.11 PM.<br /><br />Is this more of your GOOGLE THEOLOGY or do you have a authority that is not MYTHICAL????Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-39090394381992248772017-11-25T14:44:12.001+13:002017-11-25T14:44:12.001+13:00Chuckle, chuckle Bowman, with your quote of Jn 9 @...Chuckle, chuckle Bowman, with your quote of Jn 9 @ 2:11<br /><br />But we both know the medieval tradition of “felix culpa”, of the debate whether God would have become Incarnate or not if there’d been no Fall, of Luther’s conclusion: “God created humanity so that he might redeem us.” etc. etc. So perhaps not fair a riposte of a most complex issue.<br /><br />As for Ron’s 1 Tim 4:4 - it is yet more classic silliness: CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT! It’s about eating and receiving “foods”, which are deemed “ritually clean” ... “with thankfulness.” And so, let’s also read Jn 9 with similar circumspection ...Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-68422289281160312722017-11-25T13:07:54.611+13:002017-11-25T13:07:54.611+13:00Hi Ron,
I can but refer you back to Art. 6: "...<br />Hi Ron,<br /><br />I can but refer you back to Art. 6: "Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to Salvation: ........". God did not inspire a classic 'history of the world' or'a manual of science'.There are cities buried under the sea dating back 17,000 years; Who and what were they? What technologies did they have. Interesting, but my salvation does not depend on the answer.<br /><br />"So who did Cain marry?" To know that is not necessary to my salvation. So, perhaps if Priests stuck to their true functions and stopped trying to be everything to every body; the ACANZP might not be in it's present mess.<br /><br /><br /><br />Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61653619515692983302017-11-25T12:11:24.307+13:002017-11-25T12:11:24.307+13:00Dear Glen,
EVERY HUMAN BEING is created in the Im...Dear Glen,<br /><br />EVERY HUMAN BEING is created in the Image and Likeness of God - which places due emphasis on their intended perfection, not their instinctual nature. You see, Glen, the 'children of God' are on a journey - into perfection, the perfection only God can supply. This is probably why we'll all need the interim resting place in Paradise - the place where Jesus visited the dead, together with the thief from the Cross. This could be (from my very own interpretation of the work done by the Spirit in Paradise, before Christ's coming again in glory to claim his own (per St.Paul's description).Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70587698067391646732017-11-25T08:54:58.335+13:002017-11-25T08:54:58.335+13:00Hi Bowman, do you mean that the ancient Jews consi...Hi Bowman, do you mean that the ancient Jews considered disability a direct result of sin : eg the blind man or his parents were responsible, as opposed to our fallen state. And, if so, that’s interesting in this context, but I cannot see the end. There again I might have misunderstood.<br /><br />Nick Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8005248509943336792017-11-25T08:48:13.710+13:002017-11-25T08:48:13.710+13:00Hi Ron,
I now see where you get your theology fro...<br />Hi Ron,<br /><br />I now see where you get your theology from; "Google". I much prefer The ACANZP's Doctrine, as per Her Constitution. <br /><br />Of course, "creation Myth" would have to be defined as a Myth about creation; So,if the Genesis' account of creation is mythical,tell us when and where gay people were made in the image and likeness of God,(your words). Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-25193675619213658502017-11-25T06:48:55.743+13:002017-11-25T06:48:55.743+13:00Apart from Glen's intriguing aside, comments i...Apart from Glen's intriguing aside, comments in this thread seem to recognise Jesus's authority only in his arguments about the torah, and not in his acts of healing. But that is surely unscriptural and giving full weight to the latter can make some inferences from the former alone hard to maintain.<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1936912541961786542017-11-24T21:47:52.333+13:002017-11-24T21:47:52.333+13:00
Hi Ron,
Thank you for your reply but it was far t...<br />Hi Ron,<br />Thank you for your reply but it was far too long winded for me to bother reading. Could you stick to 100 words.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-53253333528714302622017-11-24T19:05:15.992+13:002017-11-24T19:05:15.992+13:00Glen Young,
Here is an Oxford Dictionary explanat...Glen Young,<br /><br />Here is an Oxford Dictionary explanation of the Creation Myth:<br />"A myth describing or explaining the creation of the world."<br /><br />These are not merely my words, Glen, but are out on the www.<br /><br />In consideration of that explanation, would you agree that the Biblical account(s) of Creation actually meet(s) that criterion, or not?<br /><br />I am aware of the 'Sola Scriptura' school which accredits every word of the Bible as historically true. However, when dealing with the 'Creation Story', can you tell me which one of those in Genesis is the truest, in your opinion? Personally, I belong to the traditional three-legged stool of the Church of England - Scripture, Tradition and Reason.<br /><br />Also, there is the need to ask; which of Adam and Eve's daughters did Cain get to marry? Did they have a daughter? Was it his sister? These are questions that kids are likely to ask in a Bible-in-schools class. Have you got the answer, Glen?<br /><br />I think the closest parallel in the Bible to the stories of Creation - and their historical background - would be the parables of Jesus in the N.T. Do you think Jesus was recounting an historical event with each parable? Or was it a method of teaching already known to his mainly Jewish audience?<br /><br />To me, the beauty of O.T. Biblical teaching - apart from the actual historical narrative - is its recounting of a spiritual journey made by God's people from exile into a settled existence in Palestine (twice) and an ongoing grappling of the Jewish people with their relationship to God.<br /><br />In the New Testament, I believe - along with the members of the body of Christ, the Church - that Jesus was the Person identified in the Catholic Creeds - the Son of God, Second Person of the Trinity; through whom God chose to redeem the population of the world to God's-self. I believe in the miracles wrought by Jesus - either in his own Incarnate being or through the Holy Spirit in the lives of His disciples.<br /><br />I believe, with Pope Francis, that doctrine is not static, but a living organism. God does not change, but we humans do evolve. How will that do for a start. I may not be as 'orthodox' as you, Glen, but I can claim to be as orthodox as, say, Gregory of Nyssa. Do you know of him?<br />Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1683793024596298322017-11-24T15:43:34.024+13:002017-11-24T15:43:34.024+13:00Hi Peter,
Perhaps, in light of Ron's statemen...<br />Hi Peter,<br /><br />Perhaps, in light of Ron's statement to me : 're-Your remarks about "the Fall" to which all humankind since the mythical Adam and Eve have been subject". Nov.23rd @ 7.29am; you may like to revise you comment to me:"I do not think libertine is fair to Ron Nov.19th @9.07am.<br /><br />Mythical: "Purely fictitious narrative usually involving supernatural persons. Collins Dict.<br /><br />Questioning the authority of the Genesis account of God's making and dealing with mankind,to the point of calling it "mythical";is surely completely outside of the legitimate ACANZP Doctrine.If the Church is so broad as to allow this type of denial,then you have no Church.Any ACANZP priest making those sorts of comments needs to read Art 9 & 10.<br /><br />If the "so called" inspired writers of the Scriptures, just wrote a whole lot of mythical nonsense; the ACANZP's basis to Christian marriage is mythical,because God did not give Eve to Adam. There was no Garden of Eden and there was no "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" Paul is quite wrong:"For since by man came death,by man came also the resurrection of the dead.For as in Adam all die,even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:21 & 22. For if there was no Adam then........!!!!!! Shall I go On!!!<br /><br />If this is acceptable Doctrine to the Bishops of ACANZP, because the Church is so broad; your UNITY is worth nothing and it looks like a Fraud.<br /><br />Peter,You need to sort out image you are as Church portraying to thinking people.<br />Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-21582405629070722362017-11-24T14:11:00.723+13:002017-11-24T14:11:00.723+13:00"Are you saying that homosexuality is part of...<br />"Are you saying that homosexuality is part of God's perfect creation?...Or do you accept that it became innate after the fall and is part of broken man, which needs to be REPENTED of?"<br /><br />Or...?<br /><br />http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=378485654<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91593673609849468562017-11-24T14:01:08.378+13:002017-11-24T14:01:08.378+13:00Dear Ron
I’m not a coercion kind of guy. Be as ga...Dear Ron<br /><br />I’m not a coercion kind of guy. Be as gay as you like. <br /><br />From my reading of Scripture, God’s not into coercion either. <br /><br />He does appear to favour obedience over rebellion, but again, that’s just my observation. <br />Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-88162354616216001612017-11-24T10:59:45.473+13:002017-11-24T10:59:45.473+13:00Hi Ron,
If Adam and Eve are "MYTHICAL";...<br />Hi Ron,<br /><br />If Adam and Eve are "MYTHICAL";then surely the Genesis account of MARRIAGE is also mythical.Why then did Jesus say:"Have you not read (where?);that He who made them in the beginning"? What authority was He quoting? I have heard this before from the Progressives here in Auckland.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-31956171107392558262017-11-24T10:03:19.127+13:002017-11-24T10:03:19.127+13:00My first post on this seems to have dropped into t...My first post on this seems to have dropped into the ether. I will try again:<br /><br />"I understand and agree that the writers of Scripture had limited biological knowledge when compared to the imperial knowledge we have gained in recent times. I note however that you make no claim that same sex attraction is immutable, and set at birth in your post, an assertion that would be highly contestable." - Brendan -<br /><br />au contraire, mon ami; I may not have before on this blog claimed that 'same-sex attraction is immutable, and set at birth". However, I now tell you, from personal experience, that I have never experienced anything other than this. Those who have sought and found release from S/S attraction by either spiritual counselling or aversion therapy were probably not totally S/S attracted anyway. <br /><br />As you may be aware, Brendan; despite the majority of people being primarily heterosexual; there are also bi-sexual people whose attractiopn can be to either gender. However, with heterosexuals being fearful of the prospect of homosexuality, one does wonder - if society thought differently - how many of them could be converted to homosexuality? I guess not many.<br /><br />Morality apart, Brendan; do you think you could be converted to become gay?<br />Well, I have to inform you that gay people have the same problem. It is also important to understand that most gay Christians would actually prefer to be like you - heterosexual - especially when the Church seems to set against them. However, mental health experts - and an increasing number of reputable spiritual counsellors - have pointed to the dangers of 'conversion therapy', which - when it proves to be unsuccessful - can cause to be a major cause of breakdown - both mentally and spiritually. Is that good for the Church?Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-53741684252409989102017-11-24T09:53:05.201+13:002017-11-24T09:53:05.201+13:00Hi Ron,
I think you will find it was the Beatles ...<br />Hi Ron,<br /><br />I think you will find it was the Beatles and not Jesus that sang "ALL you need is love". Jesus said one needs a few other things like repentance.<br /><br />The mythical Adam and Eve is straight out of Progressive Christianity and not ACANZP Doctrine. It is also contradicted by both modern "Y" and "XX" DNA knowledge. <br /><br />Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74478499873226441692017-11-24T09:35:33.385+13:002017-11-24T09:35:33.385+13:00Further to comments on the inevitability of the ef...Further to comments on the inevitability of the effects of 'The Fall', and Saint Paul's acknowledgement to Timothy of grace at work in ALL Creation:<br /><br />1 Timothy 4:4 "Everything that God created is good..."<br /><br />Comment in today's 3-minute Retreat:<br /><br />"God is love. It is impossible for God, whose essence is love, to create anything that is not good. Sometimes, our own labels of “good” and “bad” get in the way of our ability to see the goodness of God in its fullness. Paul challenges Timothy, and us, to renegotiate our categories and to simply receive all that God creates with thanksgiving. We believe that God created us and loved us into being. God continues to provide for all our needs, in sometimes surprising ways."<br /><br />I find there are still great problems for the Church when, despite modern understanding of the diversity of human biological make-up, we continue to apply 'our own labels of "good" and "bad" to people who are 'different' from ourselves, and whose behaviour we are simply unable to comprehend.<br /><br />I will not contribute any more conversation to this particular thread - on the grounds that I seem to be a single voice against so many of you.<br /><br />Off now to be with the God of Love at the Mass. Deo gratias!<br />Blessings to ALL!<br />Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-9948830481779302952017-11-24T01:07:20.432+13:002017-11-24T01:07:20.432+13:00Douglas Campbell (Otago, Kings, Duke) on the gospe...Douglas Campbell (Otago, Kings, Duke) on the gospel of grace in Romans--<br /><br />https://youtu.be/0RPiJpMAJrQ<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74819938204992334542017-11-23T21:48:15.271+13:002017-11-23T21:48:15.271+13:00I'm not sure your continued derision gets you ...I'm not sure your continued derision gets you off the hook that easily Ron! Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.com