tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post6935043778978609854..comments2024-03-28T22:29:52.666+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Unity and unityPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75445421173364212022013-04-27T16:14:01.970+12:002013-04-27T16:14:01.970+12:00To answer your question Shawn in a brief phrase: i...To answer your question Shawn in a brief phrase: incarnational reality.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60662549432203984402013-04-27T07:30:01.524+12:002013-04-27T07:30:01.524+12:00Hi Shawn
Because our unity is part of our witness ...Hi Shawn<br />Because our unity is part of our witness and our witness is not invisible.<br /><br />Because where there is agreement about Christian truth there is, through church history, and observable tendency towards visible unity.<br /><br />Because it would seem irrational to outsiders if we acclaimed our unity yet denied it was visible.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-49411026077226613082013-04-27T00:16:12.261+12:002013-04-27T00:16:12.261+12:00Why is the unity of the Church a necessarily visib...Why is the unity of the Church a necessarily visible thing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-66433305807144663192013-04-26T19:45:53.475+12:002013-04-26T19:45:53.475+12:00I concur, Bryden.
Much as the "invisible&quo...I concur, Bryden.<br /><br />Much as the "invisible" unity of the saints (the primary faith we share, the fellowship we have in Christ even if (say) we do not have eucharistic fellowship together) is important, what the world sees as disunity (i.e. denominations) is a visible sign of what is not so which should be so.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-80846277586291972052013-04-26T18:44:52.043+12:002013-04-26T18:44:52.043+12:00A question: if the unity of the Church is necessar...A question: if the unity of the Church is necessarily a visible thing, and if one decries institutional unity, then what? Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-23892101272503370002013-04-26T09:55:49.341+12:002013-04-26T09:55:49.341+12:00Agreed Malcolm. Sometimes a church split is the wo...Agreed Malcolm. Sometimes a church split is the work of the Lord and a necessary defense of the GospelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-62299975237688916462013-04-26T09:37:23.235+12:002013-04-26T09:37:23.235+12:00Is institutional unity desirable, let alone possib...Is institutional unity desirable, let alone possible? I'm not convinced it is.<br /><br />There seems to be an assumption that the causes, issues and responses of the Reformation are no longer relevant. I disagree. Rome still teaches Mariolatry, prayers to the dead, indulgences, works righteousness, and extra-Biblical revelations.<br /><br />Thus I would reject any form of institutional unity for those reasons.<br /><br />For me Reformed theology is a faithful reading of Scripture. I would not want to lose the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminster Standards for some kind of vague creedal affirmation that is so lose itjust encourages theological anarchy. This has been the weakness of Anglicanism, it's lack of a comprehensive confessional core. Not a model I would wish on the rest of the Church.<br /><br />Institutional unity is neither desirable nor possible. Southern Baptists are not going to give up their distinctiveness to join a coalition of Rome and mainline liberals.<br /><br />The existence of independent confessional denominations was about the only thing that saved Christianity in the West. If it were not for the plethora of conservative and evangelical denominations Liberalism would have spread much further.<br /><br />Did Jesus' prayer for unity mean institutional unity? I'm not convinced.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-16120189277237884352013-04-25T22:50:59.826+12:002013-04-25T22:50:59.826+12:00Hi Peter,
In thinking about Christian unity in a ...Hi Peter,<br /><br />In thinking about Christian unity in a divided church, I have been wondering about what unity meant for the church of Thyatira in Revelation 2. It seems that tolerance in church life can sometimes get a church offside with the risen Christ!<br /><br />Perhaps what seems like a split in church life is in reality one section refusing to let go of what it has in Christ and a refusal to walk away from Christ in the name of tolerance and compromise.<br /><br />MalcolmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63522947424681720502013-04-25T20:17:51.521+12:002013-04-25T20:17:51.521+12:00Agreed, Bryden.
But we Prots need to do what we ca...Agreed, Bryden.<br />But we Prots need to do what we can and take responsibility for our many schismatic ills and reversal thereof.<br /><br />A bit of help from the Lord would be much appreciated :)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-26504823946938707292013-04-25T18:08:08.516+12:002013-04-25T18:08:08.516+12:00Er, Peter; I’m not sure we may lay all the blame o...Er, Peter; I’m not sure we may lay all the blame on the Prot Ref re (a). For starters, there was an extensive plurality already to late medieval theology and praxis. Luther was initially asking a genuine series of questions of his colleagues in the first instance re his Theses. Then we can rightly judge the Roman reaction(s) to the plethora of Prot manifestations to be also part of the problem, to be partially causative of the very disunity. Viz only the call for some degree of repentance at the start of Trent - which was hastily quashed! <br /><br />Re (d): I’m convinced the way you express it here is an impossibility. It is not within the Prot Ref itself to find the means and manner of reunification. Given the Church universal has the problem, the Church universal needs to look to its Lord for His singular solution, and the steps towards that solution. ‘Cure’ follows ‘diagnosis’ ...Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-50152999971264742262013-04-25T13:59:04.627+12:002013-04-25T13:59:04.627+12:00These things are not simple, Bryden!
For instance...These things are not simple, Bryden!<br /><br />For instance, we rightly hesitate to be the church (or smorgasboard of churches) of 'choice'; and yet I would be most loathe to see the Anglican church merge into a situation (the most obvious one being unity with Rome) in which 'protest' was not possible when it was emerging that the church was in error.<br /><br />It is interesting to reflect on how the Protestant Reformation (a) broke then known unity in the Western church; (b) contributed to the eventual development of capitalist consumerism; (c) rescued the church at large from certain errors (and goodness what more in subsequent centuries if they had not been confronted: and (d) now needs to find within itself some means and manner of reunifying God's church.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-49513164459188348792013-04-25T12:51:43.878+12:002013-04-25T12:51:43.878+12:00Your ruminations on unity require bolstering Peter...Your ruminations on unity require bolstering Peter!<br /><br />1. As I pointed out on another thread, all four marks/notes of the Church coinhere. We may not speak of unity apart from holiness, catholicity and apostolicity.<br /><br />2. Crucially, these marks are both “gift and promise”. The Windsor Report makes this clear (§ 46); it also calls them “commands”. (Strictly, of the “communion” of the AC: <i>mutatis mutandis</i> therefore re the creedal marks). This is repeated in that bold <i>Princeton Proposal for Christian Unity</i> called “In One Body Through the Cross” (2003), § 3. For a review of this, see:<br /><br />https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/40623476/In%20One%20Body%20through%20the%20Cross%20The%20Princeton%20Proposal.pdf<br /><br />ARCIC’s report, “The Gift of Authority”, therefore gets this aspect absolutely correct; and yet ...<br /><br />3. Extending the picture slightly, all gifts require to be unwrapped - i.e. the command follows/is prompted by the gift and promise. Here of course Christians down through the centuries have acted differently - both in good conscience, and with malice, and with plain indifference! Our Reformation heritage has bequeathed a trichotomous assessment of what this means: the Invisible Mystical Body of Christ; the Visible Body; those actual organizations here and there. Curiously of course, this very first entity has itself a history, as de Lubac has shown, namely, how it originally throughout the first millennium referred to the sacramental elements of the Eucharist, and necessarily tied together Eucharist-and-Church-and-unity. Only in the 12th C did this begin to disintegrate, with “mystical body” now shifting its referent to the ecclesial body of Christ. I.e. some Protestants ignore this entire dynamic to their peril; i.e. again, the coinherence of the four marks of the Church are suitably rich and complex! The Princeton Proposal speaks of the New Delhi WCC Assembly’s Statement (1961) as its springboard. I suggest Peter we could/should do likewise. Unity apart from the sheer incarnational reality of visibility is ... gnostic.<br /><br />4. Apropos our own dilemmas therefore. As I’ve said repeatedly, our differences are not merely of “gender and sexuality”. Failure to see this consigns us to failure generally and an ongoing irreconcilability. Not that I can see anything approaching unanimity any time soon on how steps 1-3 above might be realized in these Islands. The Princeton Proposal (one more time) accentuates as well the consumer mentality of our contemporary culture, which acts as a corrosive acid, as does our rabid individualism. Both undermine any real search for Christian community, while “choice” reigns supreme. Unless and until any view and practice of “negative freedom” - with its accent on freedom from constraints - is suitably curbed by “positive” freedom’s <i><b>teleology</b></i> - which of course is also a <i>theological</i> point!! - we are on a hiding to nowhere ... your ruminations and mine notwithstanding!<br /><br />Pax et gaudium, Jethro and Rosemary!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-37533587939319568432013-04-25T11:59:35.811+12:002013-04-25T11:59:35.811+12:00Hi Rosemary and Jethro
Yes, I am a bit down re the...Hi Rosemary and Jethro<br />Yes, I am a bit down re the state of the church in institutional perspective.<br /><br />But I am not 'down' at all about our unity in mission (various local and global examples, indeed) and in faith which, thankfully, as you say, Rosemary, does transcend many differences.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89019657798464102512013-04-25T11:49:59.009+12:002013-04-25T11:49:59.009+12:00You sound a bit down Peter, but God is in charge ...You sound a bit down Peter, but God is in charge and all is well.<br /><br />With regard to your last sentence, [Real unity among Christians is measured by deeds and not by words.] That is true, and I often substitute the word 'love' in place of 'unity.' But I would add that it is 'faith' that unites us. I may be disappointed that you don't support me in our differences, Peter, but I'm well aware of the truth of Paul when he said, "KEEP the unity....." We already have that unity Peter, because of our 'faith' and how .. whatever our disagreements, we share that faith.Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16631238218649271544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87238066667332621812013-04-25T11:23:07.536+12:002013-04-25T11:23:07.536+12:00Maybe a good model for unity is Fresh Expressions ...Maybe a good model for unity is Fresh Expressions in the UK. Methodists and the CoE (and others) have come together and pooled resources for the purpose of mission. I am not sure if there should be unity for any other reason but for the facilitation of mission, because if it isn't God's agenda that we are focused on are we still the church?Jethronoreply@blogger.com