tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post7029694488669484073..comments2024-03-29T17:55:30.203+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Jesus the merciful contextualist?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41154169856130291442016-06-01T20:42:51.886+12:002016-06-01T20:42:51.886+12:00Rosemary, in concuding my part in this conversatio...Rosemary, in concuding my part in this conversation we were having abouty despots; I must say I'm a wee bit surprised that you shoud think I am questioning God's rule over our lives. We, as Chistians, are "no longer slaves but children of God" Like all chidren, we are called to love anfd respect our parent, not be in abject fear of them.<br /><br />Also, although I did not bring up the question of equality under God, Saint Paul tells us that "In Christ, there is neither male nor female, Greek nor Jew, master nor slave, but ALL are Baptized in the same Spirit" - According to St. Paul) All are equally loved by God - that is all equal in status in God's eyes.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwiangloo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-25388355247727764692016-06-01T19:38:27.505+12:002016-06-01T19:38:27.505+12:00Help! “Eidetic” - now there’s a need for dictionar...Help! “Eidetic” - now there’s a need for dictionaries!! Tui moment ...! ;)<br /><br />I’ve enjoyed too your engagement Rosemary with Ron around the notion of <i>ho despotēs</i> as applied to God. And while I appreciate naturally Ron’s stance - I have after all actually met one of his ‘despots' in person ... - I sense you are right on the money. No; this is not a mutual admiration society! Rather, I was taken aback years ago ploughing my way through Acts and coming across 4:24. It forced me to go for the commentaries, where I discovered its frequent use in the Apocrypha but rare in the NT. Luke 2:29, the so-called Nunc Dimittis, & Acts 4:24 (and so both Lucan); 2 Peter 2:1 & Jude 4 (which too are directly linked); and finally Rev 6:10. <br /><br />In each case something vital is being expressed about YHWH / the God and Father of Jesus the Messiah. And without this sense of absolute sovereignty and so control of all things by God (almost makes one a TULIP Calvinist!), we mere creatures would be “most to be pitied”. As it is - Hallelujah! Keep on rockin’ sister!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-24069366046223871052016-06-01T17:42:00.444+12:002016-06-01T17:42:00.444+12:00Ron, I understand what you're saying, and I&...Ron, I understand what you're saying, and I'm not ignorant, I know what the current understanding of the word despot is. But please notice that it's meaning for hundreds of years was not the current one, just as the Lord Our God is indeed Almighty and to be feared because He is. That fear finds itself in our respect, our obedience, our perseverance, our loyalty .. and I could go on and on. However to deny that He is in charge, is like denying Hell from Matthews Gospel. It's there and cannot be ignored. The fact is that although we fight for equality in all things, we are not as children of God, part of a democracy. Everything is NOT all equal.Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11987628838945618258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-53788472314985285152016-06-01T17:34:08.401+12:002016-06-01T17:34:08.401+12:00Bryden you're a whizz .. and must have an ei...Bryden you're a whizz .. and must have an eidetic memory. Thank youRosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11987628838945618258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-56973497250215340622016-06-01T14:55:22.365+12:002016-06-01T14:55:22.365+12:00Dear Rosemary. I've realised, in your search f...Dear Rosemary. I've realised, in your search for the meaning of the word 'despot', how prone we human beings are to search for a meaning for a word that fits our own, often predisposed, understanding. I must admit, I'm sometimes guilty of that myself.<br /><br />However, your diligence in finding a description of 'despotes', as 'master, absolute ruler', does not exhaust the total meaning of the word. e.g. from the Oxford English Dictionary (a topical source) we find 'despot' - n. a ruler who exercises absolute power - especially in a cruel or oppressive way.<br /><br />This latter aspect does not typify the activity of the God of Love I find in the Books of the Gospels. At least, if it does, I have not experienced it.<br /><br />Those despots I know about are humans like Idi Amin, Adolf Hitler and Robert Mugabe.<br /><br />Agape, Father Ron.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwiangloo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-88917749510069777772016-06-01T13:17:38.050+12:002016-06-01T13:17:38.050+12:00ah peter has beaten me to it meanwhile! But I'...ah peter has beaten me to it meanwhile! But I'll post nonetheless ...<br /><br />I sense Rosemary your line of enquiry is most important. For what it’s worth, I myself undertook something of a study of this notion, “the fear of the Lord”, some time ago, covering the entire OT and NT. The summation was typically paradoxical: those who fear the Lord have no need to fear him; those who do not fear the Lord have every reason to fear him.<br /><br />I canvassed not only the language associated with “fear” but also actions, like Ezek 1-2 and Rev 1, which are most striking. Typically, the most concentrated use of the language is among the Writings, notably Psalms and Proverbs. Isa 8:5-15 is a classic, echoing much of the entire book of Isaiah. And finally, Peter is right: 1 Jn 4 offers us the NT’s climax. <br /><br />On the linguistic front, <i>phobos</i> is the customary root word used, as in 1 Jn 4:18 or Mk 16:8. The OT Greek uses it too as in Prov 1:7 etc. Yet that NT climax is what it is due to another vital piece of linguistic analysis, <i>parresia</i>, in 1 Jn 4:17. It means “confidence, openness, boldness, freedom”, and occurs too in 2:28 & 3:21 as well. It is a favourite of Luke in Acts, and Hebrews delights in it too (e.g. 10:19,35, 3:14 & 4:16). Eph 3:12 climaxes the argument with it. It epitomizes the consequences of being adopted into the very relationship between Father and Son in the Holy Spirit—for it depicts the very sum of who the triune God is. Enjoy!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-30794189978944392022016-06-01T12:48:27.662+12:002016-06-01T12:48:27.662+12:00Hi Rosemary
Fear = phobos is an all-encompassing w...Hi Rosemary<br />Fear = phobos is an all-encompassing word for "fear" whether = "terrible/awe-inspiring, terror" or "reverence, respect."<br />The same word is used in 1 John as in Proverbs 1:7.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72090344810835135562016-06-01T11:54:15.125+12:002016-06-01T11:54:15.125+12:00Thank you Peter, what a comforting post. I have ...Thank you Peter, what a comforting post. I have a query if I may. Is the greek for the word 'fear' .. in 'fear is the beginning of wisdom' .. the same as the greek for the word 'fear' .. in perfect love casts out all fear? I ask because I wonder about nuances. The respect aspect of fear must always remain, how could it not. But I am left wondering if the 'fear' in the second case [perfect love casts out all fear] is the fear and trembling type of fear?Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11987628838945618258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-46053455572556218612016-06-01T07:30:38.733+12:002016-06-01T07:30:38.733+12:00Hi Rosemary
Apostolic reference to "perfect l...Hi Rosemary<br />Apostolic reference to "perfect love" is in 1 John, where God, twice, is declared to be "love." So any working out of what perfect love means must take account of the most perfect of perfect love being the being of God. That is, the perfect love which drives out fear is the love which flows through us from Love itself, a consequence of our being in Christ and in God, indwelt by Love and dwelling in Love. Perfect love is God's love.<br />Of course if we go to 1 Corinthians 13 then we have further clarity. The love Paul speaks of there as the love we might have for one another (and hence, and rightly, popular at weddings) cannot be less than the perfect love of God - the love that bears all things, forgives all things, etc. Indeed we find through the Scriptures that God's love is perfect.<br /><br />Relating that to fear, when we know that God is love (a knowledge we cannot have without Christ being born in us, without the Spirit dwelling within us) then perfect love works within us, unites us with God, and all fear has gone. Not because God's authority or (to pick up the best sense of the word you use above) God's despot-ness is any less but because there is no distance between us and God. Disconnected from the perfect love of God and the perfect communion with God as a result, we can only fear God, and that fear should be the deepest and most profound respect, for it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God, save that we are saved by God's love.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-53230269058604409742016-05-31T22:04:35.883+12:002016-05-31T22:04:35.883+12:00Chuckle .. it's a real nuisance .. beetroot...Chuckle .. it's a real nuisance .. beetroot that is, but very good for you. Anyway, your turn Peter .. a definition of 'perfect love' would be very helpful.Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11987628838945618258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-28700837790789413392016-05-31T21:46:15.168+12:002016-05-31T21:46:15.168+12:00Dear Ron and Rosemary
Perfect love casts out all f...Dear Ron and Rosemary<br />Perfect love casts out all fear... though that doesn't mean I am not slightly nervous to tell my wife I have spilt beetroot on my best shirt :)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54481196298035623612016-05-31T21:41:50.719+12:002016-05-31T21:41:50.719+12:00Origin
Mid 16th century: from French despote, via...Origin<br /><br />Mid 16th century: from French despote, via medieval Latin from Greek despotēs 'master, absolute ruler'. Originally (after the Turkish conquest of Constantinople) the term denoted a minor Christian ruler under the Turkish empire. The current sense dates from the late 18th century.Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11987628838945618258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-56488380963799553082016-05-31T21:36:10.385+12:002016-05-31T21:36:10.385+12:00I find you very difficult to understand Ron. Yes,...I find you very difficult to understand Ron. Yes, I understand that the word ‘fear’ in this case means something much more than the normal way we understand the word. But when you say .. “One cannot fear a despot,” then I don’t understand. The creator of all .. of everything, yes, deserves our respect. But much further Ron, He’s in charge of everything .. the boss. One of the meanings of the word despot .. is ruler with absolute authority. Hmm .. God is certainly that. These days the word despot has some negative leanings .. let’s hope we don’t drive the Almighty and Everlasting Father God to do anything negative .. such as a massive flood maybe!!!!<br /><br />I would certainly find it helpful if you defined the term ‘love.’<br />Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11987628838945618258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40926920361001891042016-05-31T14:26:51.867+12:002016-05-31T14:26:51.867+12:00Hi Ron / Rosemary
I am redacting your responsive c...Hi Ron / Rosemary<br />I am redacting your responsive comment Ron, just a tiny bit, so it focuses on the question of "fear" and not on what Rosemary may or may not be feeling!<br /><br />COMMENT (redacted)<br /><br />But, dear Rosemary, have you not yet learned that the word 'fear' in this context has nothing to do with being frightened. It has all to do with respect. One cannot respect a despot. That is the God of Isis, who wants his warriors to kill people in the name of religious purity. Not the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. "They will know you're my disciples by your love" - not by [any disciple's] abject fear!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60906007209950195332016-05-31T12:32:36.179+12:002016-05-31T12:32:36.179+12:00Ron, the fact that 'Fear of the Lord is the B...Ron, the fact that 'Fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom,' cannot be ignored surely>?Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11987628838945618258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33517482687400436992016-05-31T12:30:27.570+12:002016-05-31T12:30:27.570+12:00Hi Ron
The first responsibility here is to acknowl...Hi Ron<br />The first responsibility here is to acknowledge the fullness of Matthew's Gospel (mercy and hell, beatitudes and woes, etc).<br />The second is to carefully assess who is blessed and who is not.<br />Clearly much of the condemning sayings and parables of Jesus in Matthew's Gospel are directed at religious leaders who lay heavy and unnecessary burdens on people.<br />But that does not deal with all such passages. We cannot, for instance, escape the challenge of the Sheep and Goats passage in Matthew 25 which gives pause for thought to ALL readers of the Gospel, does it not?<br />Certainly when Matthew 25 is preached on (e.g.) Social Services' Sunday, it is generally preached as a challenge to all the congregation to choose rightly, not just a challenge to the hypocritical religious fatcats in the pews!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-83984869315873568112016-05-31T12:18:55.420+12:002016-05-31T12:18:55.420+12:00I don't know about you priests here, who urge ...I don't know about you priests here, who urge on us the remembrance of the promise of Hell as punishment. Jesus mostly reserved his observations on this for the religious people who lay heavy burdens on other people.<br /><br />I believe I was ordained to show people the way to Heaven, not to consign them to the horrors of Hell, if they don't do what they're told. I have no pastoral warrant for the latter, but I have lots of Scripture to back me up in the exercise of pity, mercy, and loving-kindness.<br /><br />Maybe the concept of Hellfire is what keeps many from encountering the mercy of God in the Church? It is also important to bear in mind that the Gospel is, primarily, Good News, not Bad. Pope Francis has the priorities right!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwiangloo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-51654802892299764192016-05-30T17:45:24.150+12:002016-05-30T17:45:24.150+12:00Thanks Bryden (and for your other comment today).
...Thanks Bryden (and for your other comment today).<br />Yes, hell figures prominently in Matthew's merciful gospel!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91415374151206421652016-05-30T16:43:03.143+12:002016-05-30T16:43:03.143+12:00One of the fascinating hermeneutical dynamics of M...One of the fascinating hermeneutical dynamics of Matthew’s Gospel is its strong emphasis on “mercy” as you lay out so well and fulsomely. Many thanks indeed Peter for these comprehensive notes! Yet, another equally strong emphasis, and one often cited, is the emphatic verses declaring hell’s very existence (8:12, 13:42,50, 22:13-14, 24:51, 25:30, which sets up too the Great Divide/Divorce, v.46). How to square these two is therefore not unimportant either. A lacuna?<br /><br />I’d go therefore [sic] to Paul for help, another strong exponent of “covenantal righteousness”, and notably to his magisterial Romans. As is well known, 1:16-17 set the scene; but what is perhaps not so well appreciated is the clear Roman context - Augustus as Saviour who brought Peace/Pax (5:1, 14:17, 15:13) through his wielding of Power across the whole Oekumene. Then of course, “salvation” also requires “wrath” against all injustice/unrighteousness; its utter removal is <i>de rigeur</i> - vv1:18ff. The climax of the entire argument, chs 1-11, is 11:32. “In view of” which “mercy” - the NIV of 12:1 catches it well - leads to Paul’s equally strong sense now of our due <i>latreia</i>, our bodily, “living sacrifice” unto God—every bit as basic as Matthew’s Manual for Discipleship (the entire Gospel) are 12:1-2, the fulcrum of the entire Letter.<br /><br />Who specifically might populate such realms of outer darkness is not for us mere witnesses to adjudicate - beyond the dire general warnings of the likes of Matthew and Paul. Nor may we, I suggest, be so bold as to propose any <i>apokatastasis</i>. Matthew alone would deny this clearly - and Karl Barth would follow suit, despite the ‘logic’ of his Christology of election and reconciliation, too good an exegete is he. <br /><br />So; thanks again Peter. Even if “mercy” properly begs the very fullest of “justice’s” ‘consequences’ ... Therein lies the sheer wonder and mystery of Romans 3:21-26, and notably that last verse, 26!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-36726841710560047062016-05-28T22:20:56.879+12:002016-05-28T22:20:56.879+12:00An impressive survey of 'mercy' passages, ...An impressive survey of 'mercy' passages, Peter. <br /><br />One of my favourites is Luke 6: 36-37, on Compassion and Mercy to Others:<br /><br />"Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judged yourselves, do not condemn, and you will not be condemned yourselves; grant pardon, and you will be pardoned". <br /><br />A tough call for All of us - especially when we judge the behaviour of others to be not we expect of them as far as 'purity' is concerned. I guess that occupied the minds of the Scribes about to stone the adulterous woman.<br /><br />Agape.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwiangloo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com