tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post7089842650371323293..comments2024-03-30T00:33:32.285+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Obviously, it is time to post on ... demonsPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1914906640927414262022-07-01T16:03:42.865+12:002022-07-01T16:03:42.865+12:00"Former Anglicans like Gavin Ashenden and Mic..."Former Anglicans like Gavin Ashenden and Michael Nazir-Ali are also strengthening the Church in England with their theological heft." Just william<br /><br />Not so, William! However, many conversion-seeking Catholics like yourself are prone to think of the Ordinariate as Church of England Lite. Think again. What was the main reason those who left their Anglican roots in the C. of E. for the Ordinariate? For nothing less/more than the Ordination of Women and the abandoment of mysogyny and homophobia in the Institution. They may be teaching your own Church something - maybe about the beauty of Cranmerian English and a more simple but beautiful liturgical useage - but they certainly do not "strengthen the Church of England with their theological heft"! I fact, it may be that their paucity of theological enquiry on matter of gender and sexuality drove them to what they saw as a 'place of safety' from the 'semper reformanda' of modern Aglicanism!<br />However, the Catholic Church under Pope Francis and his newly appointed cardinals, may prove different from their expectations on the issues that disturbed them. Where will they move to then? Maybe the Gafcon Provinces of the Global South?Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-64697649937170369882022-06-29T21:04:45.510+12:002022-06-29T21:04:45.510+12:00Hi William,
I very much resonate with "whole...Hi William,<br /><br />I very much resonate with "wholeness" in terms of being Catholic. I'm really grateful, and somewhat surprised, that was was fed to me through the sacraments, early parish life, and Catholic schools has stood the test of time, and even survived my critical adulthood. But that upbringing (and my family) also allowed me space to faithfully dissent, or as Newman would say, to follow the primacy of conscience (all the way into full Anglican parish life, at times!).<br /><br />I feel one large gap within Protestant churches which is around contemplative spirituality - the 'long' mystical tradition. I lean heavily on Catholic sources for that. But that's hardly a reason against church unity.<br /><br />Practically, I don't see how a truly international church can be supported by current Anglican ecclesiology. But that's not to say that an authentic international structure couldn't emerge out of the Anglican tradition- Rowan Williams' communion covenant is a good example. It would need some big shifts to gain assent, but many Anglicans are sympathetic to this <br /><br />Honestly, I don't see much cafeteria Christianity in the Anglicans I know. They are pretty comprehensive, committed, and as varied as Catholic laity. Their clergy are often more psychologically whole and better supported than current Catholic priests, sadly.<br /><br />Conversion to the Ordinariate is hardly our church's generous, Vatican II vision for ecumenism. <br /><br />Mark Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499278196265491516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-2372245137366199792022-06-29T16:57:58.401+12:002022-06-29T16:57:58.401+12:00Mark, I have often referred to the Ordinariate. Mu...Mark, I have often referred to the Ordinariate. Much of the Anglican rite can easily be adapted to fully Catholic worship.<br />Eastern rites have long been used in uniate churches.<br />Catholics have also used and supplemented the Alpha course,<br />Former Anglicans like Gavin Ashenden and Michael Nazir-Ali are also strengthening the Church in England with their theological heft.<br /><br />But you must remember that Catholicism means "wholeness" and it isn't a cafeteria religion as Anglicanism looks to us.You can't pick and choose the parts you like. A lot of American politicians like Biden and Pelosi loudly claim to be Catholics while attacking the Church's teaching on the sanctity of life. This is absurd. Many evangelicals have a better grasp of logic than these "ethnic Catholics" who once believed in the sanctity of life when they were in their fifties and sixties but abandoned this when the Democratic Party went hard left-liberal. What shall it profit a man or woman ...<br /><br />Pax et bonum <br />William Greenhalgh Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89777941123782796652022-06-29T16:15:53.254+12:002022-06-29T16:15:53.254+12:00May I suggest a couple or three (there are so many...<br />May I suggest a couple or three (there are so many). <br /><br />The settled synodality of Anglican decision-making, involving laity, clergy, and bishops. This actually enables controversial issues to be openly acknowledged and debated, rather than repressed (thereby becoming even more explosive).<br /> <br />The opening of the Anglican Church to the full ministry gifts of women. Like synodality, this issue is so settled and taken-for-granted (at least in the churches and people I have contact with) that is almost impossible to think of Anglican church life without the significant presence and gifts of women. Nothing has been lost, and so many riches gained. <br /><br />I do get that even Pope Francis has said the issue of women’s ordination is not up for debate, but it is keenly felt by Catholic laity worldwide and this hunger will only grow. I imagine this will be one of the issues emerging through the synodal-consultative feedback process. (I’m not going to even mention the extremely healthy tradition of allowing Anglican ministers to be married: +Peter and Father Ron, imagine clerical life without the support of your partners!).<br /> <br />All of the above could revivify Catholic vocations and ordained life – which is sadly moribund in many places – without shifting a letter of the Gospel.<br /> <br />I also appreciate the way in which our local Anglican Church in NZ has made significant movement towards being more transparent and responsive to sexual abuse committed and allegedly committed by its clergy. Sadly, the Catholic Church is still managing and policing this process in-house – after all these years. <br /><br />https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/06/26/pope-francis-catholic-church-00041378<br /><br />On the other side: apart from opting to become an international communion (not inviting Bishop Kirill of Moscow to Lambeth isn't enough), there is also much to learn of course.<br /><br />Mark <br />Mark Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499278196265491516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-78976250650576992512022-06-29T13:07:56.024+12:002022-06-29T13:07:56.024+12:00"Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem..."Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ..."<br /><br />"Catholics, in their ecumenical work, must assuredly be concerned for their separated brethren, praying for them, keeping them informed about the Church, making the first approaches toward them. But their primary duty is to make a careful and honest appraisal of whatever needs to be done or renewed in the Catholic household itself."<br /><br /><br />UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO (Vatican II)<br /><br /><br />William, <br /><br />I wonder what endowments and riches you acknowledge in the Anglican Church? What can we Catholics learn from our Anglican brothers and sisters? This aspect is often missing from your posts.<br /><br />What do you see is needed in terms of urgent renewal or reform in the Catholic household so as to assist in the movement towards unity with all churches?<br /><br /><br /> Mark Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499278196265491516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-66529914246200197372022-06-29T09:22:11.000+12:002022-06-29T09:22:11.000+12:00Forgive this pedant for pointing out that "ni...Forgive this pedant for pointing out that "nihil obstat" is an indicative statement, not a subjunctive; it expresses a fact, not a wish. Multa obstant - many things do "stand in the way".<br />I don't doubt that European Catholicism will go through more ructions. But the heart of Catholicism is in the south - something Anglicans understand as well. <br />As for Anglicanism, when it doesn't agree on its ministry or its understanding of marriage, it's hard to think of it coming together globally. Much more likely that its small branches in the north - Scotland, Wales, Canada - will be gone by 2035, as an English demographer recently forecast,<br />I don't say this as a Catholic triumphalist - a crucial issue for Catholics is vocations.<br /><br />Pax et bonum,<br />William Greenhalgh Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54995644710230081372022-06-28T17:11:08.522+12:002022-06-28T17:11:08.522+12:00Nihil obstat!Nihil obstat!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-17029322745125913472022-06-28T16:56:30.930+12:002022-06-28T16:56:30.930+12:00I'm going to be ridiculously idealistic...
If...I'm going to be ridiculously idealistic...<br /><br />If the Catholic Church could fully embrace synodality (unleasing the considerable force of its laity, and unsnarling the knot of clericalism which chokes off transparent justice for sexual abuse survivors etc.), and if this impulse was truly allowed to reform its curia, wider church structures, and culture....<br /><br />If worldwide Anglican churches could fully opt to be part of an international communion (and not be centred around the Church of England); for all bishops to be equals during times of peace *and* accept the need for a central bishop or body to wisely adjudicate during times of dispute, and if this impulse was truly allowed to reform its structures and culture...<br /><br />then the two would be within touching distance.<br />Mark Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499278196265491516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19050760593943753402022-06-28T11:01:13.736+12:002022-06-28T11:01:13.736+12:00William said:
"If Anglicanism were to develo...William said:<br /><br />"If Anglicanism were to develop a truly global polity, its leadership might reflect the reality of who is actually an Anglican in today's world, instead of sounding like a paternalist imperialist from the 19th century."<br /><br />au contraire, mon ami! I think even you might agree, William, that Anglicanism is - even at this moment - much less led by the nose by 'Head Office' than your own Rome-centred Vatican sodality.<br /><br />The failure of our once-toted 'Anglican Covenant' movement is clear evidence of this - since which, I think, the whole Anglican Communion has regained its sense of a diocese centred around its bishop - a concept of the Early Church; for which your dear Pope Francis is being roundly criticised for his strong advocacy.<br /><br />Our African brethren (plus our ultra coservative Sydney Diocese) has already secured its freedom from any thought of loyalty to Lambeth. The only problem with this is that it has led to further disintegration of the Anglican felicity of Faith - based on Scripture, Tradition and Reason. ('Sola Scriptura' can close one's eyes to today's realities).<br /><br />It would seem that the secure tenancy of some of the prelates living in the Vatican is actually being threatened by Pope Francis' encouragement for local synodical governance - perhaps leaving then in fear of the disintegration of their own power at 'The Base'?<br /><br />Perhaps the whole Christian Church - the Body of Christ - needs to understand that the Gospel is for ALL people - a message of God's provenance of salvation in Christ, that is not confined to one earthly leadership model, but activated, by the Holy Spirit, through the local Church - its Bishops/Elders, and the Faithful pastored and taught by them. The catholic creeds and the historic sacraments of the Church cannot be tethered to one nation or people, needing to be lived out in the context of the wider world for which Christ died. Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-18483211914753221952022-06-28T05:57:45.696+12:002022-06-28T05:57:45.696+12:00Hi William
I think your latest comment is on faire...Hi William<br />I think your latest comment is on fairer ground for discussion: what is the best future for the Communion, in the light of its past (including the anchoring of its history into the office of the ABC) and its present (attending to the demography of today in which not only is any colonization a “bad thing” but also there might be a critical evaluation of what deomcracy means: one Anglican one vote? One diocese one vote? One province one vote?)<br /><br />My plaintive plea would then be: just as the North can be fairly criticised for making more of itself than its numbers deserve, might the South understand the cultural changes the North is experiencing?<br /><br />(With the slight kicker, that, of course, buried in Anglican news, but from time to time discernible, African Anglican LGBTQi++ Christians plea for a better deal for themselves, something more akin to what their North Anglican sisters and brothers experience!)<br /><br />Incidentally, I would feel much better about where Anglican Communion thinking was at on LGBTQi++ matters if we were (as a whole Communion) discussing things in the current Franciscan mode of the RCC than in the Lambeth 1998 1.10 mode!!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61100974043813202412022-06-28T04:08:36.761+12:002022-06-28T04:08:36.761+12:00Peter, I do know that the majority of Anglicans to...Peter, I do know that the majority of Anglicans today live in Africa and their bishops are pretty highly educated - more have higher degrees, for example, than British and North American Anglican bishops. I also know that the combined number of practising Anglicans in the Global North (which culturally includes Australia and New Zealand) may be less than you would find in Uganda alone, or possibly Rwanda. A diocese in Michigan, for example, has fewer than a thousand on Sunday. Anglican dioceses in Scotland and Wales have very small numbers as well. Do you think having the historic resources to pay for a bishop makes an English or American diocese more important than a poor Anglican churches of Africa or Latin America? All of this reminds me of the infamous rotten boroughs of the nineteenth century! <br />If Anglicanism were to develop a truly global polity, its leadership might reflect the reality of who is actually an Anglican in today's world, instead of sounding like a paternalist imperialist from the 19th century.<br />It took the Catholic Church until 1978 to break from centuries of cultural captivity to Italy and we will not look back.<br />I appreciate the Archbishop of Canterbury is not a patriarch or a pope, but if you want a sense of global identity, you will have to give up ecclesiastical colonialism. <br /><br />Pax et bonum <br /><br />William Greenhalgh Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-69534814655869518382022-06-28T03:09:29.371+12:002022-06-28T03:09:29.371+12:00Mark, somewhere in the Archives of ADU is Father R...Mark, somewhere in the Archives of ADU is Father Ron's streetwise guide to the pubs of Canterbury. If all the postcards show pubs, then signatures on their backs will testify to the energy of the Conference conversations.<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-84485434853238011402022-06-27T20:18:43.955+12:002022-06-27T20:18:43.955+12:00Dear William,
Your critique of ++Welby is of a pie...Dear William,<br />Your critique of ++Welby is of a piece with some other criticism I read around the traps. But all such criticism seems to overlook the extent of his personal links with (in particular) Africa and its Anglican provinces, the role of non-British Anglican Communion staff, and the role of the Primates in shaping things such as the planning for Lambeth.<br /><br />No doubt ++Welby is not perfect, but is he imperfect in the way you and similar critics make out?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60998741845271949382022-06-27T19:32:38.407+12:002022-06-27T19:32:38.407+12:00I like the idea of postcards, but what should we w...I like the idea of postcards, but what should we write on the back of them?<br /><br />"Look, I've travelled all the way from New Zealand, wearing pressure socks!"<br />Mark Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499278196265491516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-53309248570336192062022-06-27T18:03:36.566+12:002022-06-27T18:03:36.566+12:00"Il n'y a qu'une tristesse, lui a-t-e..."Il n'y a qu'une tristesse, lui a-t-elle dit, la dernier fois, c'est de N'ETRE PAS DES SAINTS..."<br /><br />-- Leon Bloy (1897) La Femme Pauvre<br /><br />Yes, William, Hanoverian; but Georgian, not Victorian. <br /><br />You seem to like being a Catholic almost as much as Father Ron does. That's a blessing from the Lord. <br /><br />Would it not be a still greater blessing to show his love to the world? There is no other salvation. <br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-47014736319242712102022-06-27T08:55:23.319+12:002022-06-27T08:55:23.319+12:00Spoken like a true Victorian patrician, BW.
Yes, t...Spoken like a true Victorian patrician, BW.<br />Yes, the Archbishop of Canterbury is the headmaster of an English public school (Rugby, perhaps, Dr Arnold redivivus) and some of the boys from the colonies are challenging his natural authority and playing hookey from Compulsory Games. <br />What is the Headmaster to do? He and his assistant housemaster did send them a stern letter but it hasn't worked. Never mind, Dr Arnold will apply his legendary wisdom. After all, he knows they have some "local reality" (like the Bible, I suppose) to deal with.<br /><br />Pax et bonum,<br />William Greenhalgh Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-59735084685684491272022-06-27T04:29:54.797+12:002022-06-27T04:29:54.797+12:00The polity of the Anglican Communion, has been and...The polity of the Anglican Communion, has been and is, a reasonable update of the order already in place by the end of the C4. Like the older Orthodox one, it does accommodate nations, and does not normally tolerate an administrative centre. Since Jesus is Lord, that has worked.<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-90542998623156094002022-06-27T03:55:05.244+12:002022-06-27T03:55:05.244+12:00"What to do with Lambeth non-attenders?"..."What to do with Lambeth non-attenders?"<br /><br />Maybe send them postcards from scenic Kent. <br /><br />If they are merely trolls, then we should not feed them. If their public protests mask some local reality, then we should not publicly judge their handling of that.<br /><br />There is nothing at stake in mere absence. <br /><br />The ABC, by definition, should make case-wise decisions about absences. Anglicans, by definition, should respect those decisions. <br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-90633098051404462182022-06-26T19:37:25.909+12:002022-06-26T19:37:25.909+12:00I am far from convinced, Fr Ron, that the LC will ...I am far from convinced, Fr Ron, that the LC will take the drastic action(s) you envisage … I don’t think it is going to be that kind of conference!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-7048227202141335362022-06-26T19:35:50.533+12:002022-06-26T19:35:50.533+12:00Hello Mark
There are (I believe, I cannot give you...Hello Mark<br />There are (I believe, I cannot give you chapter and verse) mechanisms to (a) not invite provinces/their reps to various meetings of the Communion; and, more drastically, (b) ex-Communion-ate the same.<br /><br />My question is whether we are at such a point, what would be achieved by (a) or (b), and wouldn’t it be better for a province at odds with the Communion as a whole to make a decision to withdraw than for the Communion to delimit or disbar?<br /><br />Further, more complicatedly, a Diocese such as Sydney belongs to the Communion via its parent provincial body, so there is no Communion mechanism for disbarring an individual Diocese (save that for, e.g. The Lambeth Conference, the ABC could choose not to invite the Sydney bishops. In reality they have been invited and are choosing not to go.)<br /><br />If +++Kirill were an Anglican bishop or archbishop he could be not invited to the Lambeth Conference and not invited to the Primates’ Meeting.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-59524934665505747362022-06-26T17:22:08.196+12:002022-06-26T17:22:08.196+12:00You could say that Anglican ecclesiology developed...You could say that Anglican ecclesiology developed to solve the problems of the church in one particular nation and culture, and doesn't have the mechanisms to deal with international, intercultural relations and disputes.<br /><br />Happy to hear more from those in the know on this one. Mark Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499278196265491516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-11291190720084823662022-06-26T17:16:14.803+12:002022-06-26T17:16:14.803+12:00What to do with Lambeth non-attenders?
This takes...What to do with Lambeth non-attenders?<br /><br />This takes us into the problems of Anglican ecclesiology, I guess. <br /><br />What do you do with dioceses who no longer agree to maintain respectful relationship with the Archbishop of Canterbury's 'primacy of honour' (to use a term Orthodox sometimes use for Rome and New Rome/Constantinople), and are selective in whom they associate with in the Anglican Communion?<br /><br />While allowing for faithful dissent, are they foregoing their commitment to being part of one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church? <br /><br />Ate there any consequences for this within Anglican ecclesiology - or was that the whole point of Rowan Williams' covenant idea?<br /><br />What is Patriarch Kirill was the leader of the Anglican Church of Russia? What could be done?<br />Mark Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499278196265491516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-13179309214351166992022-06-26T13:13:38.854+12:002022-06-26T13:13:38.854+12:00Yes, Mark. It certainly shouldn't coincide wit...Yes, Mark. It certainly shouldn't coincide with 'Gafcon Sunday'!Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87904845546741072222022-06-26T08:32:14.756+12:002022-06-26T08:32:14.756+12:00
Oh Ron, I would love that: Saint Hans, Doctor of ...<br />Oh Ron, I would love that: Saint Hans, Doctor of the Church - feast day to coincide with the world day of prayer. Mark Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499278196265491516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-14977882643227375112022-06-26T08:17:53.574+12:002022-06-26T08:17:53.574+12:00So Sad! I looked in on today's Message from Ar...So Sad! I looked in on today's Message from Archbishop Ben Kwashi on what has now been named 'GAFCON SUNDAY', for the brief message that has been promoted throughout the gafcon world. Apart from the assertion that GAFCON is the place to go for the message of the Gospel, my main 'takeaway' was the plea for money. Not the first thing on my mind on a Sunday morning! Asadadvertisement for the promotion of the Good News! Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.com