tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post7375886830292265210..comments2024-03-28T19:03:49.275+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Death and division can be infectiousPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-80095213169844067012010-10-28T20:06:49.576+13:002010-10-28T20:06:49.576+13:00Rock on, Kurt! Ol' hippies never die - they ju...Rock on, Kurt! Ol' hippies never die - they jus' take over the Episcopal Church! :) <br />I imagine, though, that a little bit of "social backwardness" might help those thousands of NYC teens who have single parenthood, unwanted pregnancies, STDs, abortions and drug habits/addictions, or the number who die in shootings. Even the NYT, the house paper of the irredeemably obtuse, has recognized the terrible sexual wilderness afflicting NY teens. If your little parish is reaching a handful of parents, I am happy. That Tim Keller and Redeemer Presbyterian are reaching thousands of young people is a cause for great joy.<br />Al M.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10612759884937049332010-10-28T02:05:57.535+13:002010-10-28T02:05:57.535+13:00“More likely because they started playing soccer o...“More likely because they started playing soccer on Sunday, or found it hard to reconcile getting stoned and having sex on Saturday night with singing 'Amazing grace' the next morning. Do you actually know any young people, Kurt?”—Al<br /><br />Yes, Al, I know quite a number. (You see, for the past 25 years I’ve been well-known on the Lower East Side anarchist/punk scene). There is, of course, a grain of truth in what you say. But the polls (you know what they are, don’t you Al?) all confirm a sea change here in the religious behavior of American young people since the right-wing evangelicals 30 years ago began to make institutional religion synonymous in their minds with social backwardness and bigotry. <br /><br />And, of course, even punk rockers (like us hippies) grow older, get steady jobs (if they can), get married and have kids. In the past two years, my little parish has begun attracting younger parents in their 30s to our events. We’re having more baptisms; new volunteers are showing up for the food pantry and the soup kitchen; younger people sit on the Vestry, etc. Little o’l hippies like me may not be having more kids, Al, but nothing says we can’t welcome young parents into our faith community.<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />In colorful Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-45163833762137126472010-10-27T19:04:18.623+13:002010-10-27T19:04:18.623+13:00"Sizable numbers of American young people hav..."Sizable numbers of American young people have stopped going to church because they view institutional religion as socially backward and bigoted."<br /><br />More likely because they started playing soccer on Sunday, or found it hard to reconcile getting stoned and having sex on Saturday night with singing 'Amazing grace' the next morning.<br />Do you actually know any young people, Kurt? Have you ever watched MTV? In the West (especially the US) we have produced the wealthiest, most play-orientated and introverted generation of young people yet. Maybe the cold winds of recession and student debt will wake some of them up.<br />Al M.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19826951297698081052010-10-27T06:21:16.344+13:002010-10-27T06:21:16.344+13:00Hi Kurt,
Yes we have discussed these things before...Hi Kurt,<br />Yes we have discussed these things before. I think they are worth discussing further because of the peculiar present situation we are in as Anglicans, namely that the Anglican Communion as an institution is foundering because of a persistent disagreement with TEC. It is not with other declining churches (e.g. my own; and if it was, I would be arguing that we should consider stepping aside for a while from Communion meetings). Nor is the disagreement with an Anglican church which is demonstrating an ability to both promote a 'liberal' policy while striving to retain 'conservatives' in its ranks. Many Anglicans are simply aghast at the way in which TEC is treating those Anglicans who disagree with its policy. TEC is entitled to act sovereignly as it pleases, but the Communion is also entitled to take a view on what is satisfactory conduct by its member churches.<br /><br />TEC, if it is dying, is dying slowly, and within it there will be many examples of growing congregations such as your own. But it would help the wider Communion, both fellow declining Western members and growing Global South members (who probably take exception to your socio-political explanation of their growth!) to be more convinced that TEC's gospel is the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ if overall its life was marked by growth and not decline.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87282049307323532222010-10-27T05:31:34.154+13:002010-10-27T05:31:34.154+13:00We’ve discussed this before, yes? The fact of the ...We’ve discussed this before, yes? The fact of the matter is that in the West nearly ALL Christian denominations face declining memberships. If there is a “crisis,” it is not simply a crisis of The Episcopal Church. Even America’s largest Protestant denomination, the conservative Southern Baptists, after 100 years of uninterrupted growth, has reported their third consecutive year of membership decline. (Their membership figures are grossly inflated to begin with, since these evangelicals count as “members” practically anyone who accepts a tract from their hands). <br /><br />That churches in dysfunctional Third World countries are growing should be no surprise. Lacking even the threadbare social safety net of the USA, religious organizations (Muslim as well as Christian) in countries such as Nigeria, Uganda, etc. fill in the gap. They provide basic social survival and service networks for millions of impoverished individuals—service networks that are routinely provided by governments in the West. In fact, it’s in the Western countries with the most extensive welfare programs, that religious affiliation is weakest. Perhaps the growing economic depression will reverse this trend somewhat.<br /><br />David’s point about the homophobes and misogynists dying off is accurate. Here in the USA, at least, younger people have fewer problems with either gay people or women, including their holding church leadership positions. Sizable numbers of American young people have stopped going to church because they view institutional religion as socially backward and bigoted. However, there is growing anecdotal evidence that liberal mainline religion here may soon see a stabilization, perhaps even an upturn in membership. What’s happening in my own little parish in Greenpoint, Brooklyn supports this view. A year ago we had one service on Sundays with about 40 people in attendance. Today, we have two services on Sunday with about 40 people each in attendance—many newcomers are young parents. Of course, my parish is composed of people who are willing to break out of ruts and who are willing to try new approaches. These are the traits that TEC needs, and I believe the Presiding Bishop was telling this to TEC leaders recently. Being flexible and taking advantage of the opportunities that do exist for church growth is key. The often-repeated predictions of the “death” of TEC may again prove premature.<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Enjoying the colorful foliage<br />In Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-27859294707261014062010-10-27T02:52:55.257+13:002010-10-27T02:52:55.257+13:00Sue asks: "If TEC is in terminal decline, why...Sue asks: "If TEC is in terminal decline, why even bother about it anyhow? Why not just ignore what it does? Why go to all the bother and fuss of cutting something off that won't be there in a decade anyhow? If it is dying, it is not a threat."<br />In the long term that is correct. However.....<br />1. Schori continues her litigious crusade against orthodox congregations that haven't escaped her grasp.<br />2. Diseased and dying members still pose a danger to the healthy parts (think: gangrene, Black Death). Tec has tried very hard to export its own perversions of the Gospel.<br />Al M.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19254490397396790742010-10-26T21:43:42.610+13:002010-10-26T21:43:42.610+13:00Hi Al
Thank you for your comment.
I am choosing no...Hi Al<br />Thank you for your comment.<br />I am choosing not to publish it!<br />What you say may be true, but to publish it may either cause hurt I do not particularly wish to be party to visiting upon colleagues or cause dispute to arise as to the precise facts of the situation, and I do not wish to have to moderate such a dispute.<br />The gist of what you say, that there is a causal link between some policies of this church and some signs of its decline could perhaps be rephrased with less pointed and personal examples in a replacement comment?<br />Cheers<br />PeterPeter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3281652465436636052010-10-26T18:02:46.451+13:002010-10-26T18:02:46.451+13:00David, I think you are using the wrong tense in ta...David, I think you are using the wrong tense in talking about our province “will” have to deal with it - in the future tense. <br /><br />In 1992 our liturgical commission produced and published a collection of rites “for life events”. This included:<br />Liturgy for the Blessing of a Relationship<br />Liturgy of Healing from Abuse for Women<br />Liturgy for Recognising the End of a Marriage <br />A Liturgical Resource for Addressing Experiences of Abuse in the Church<br />The rites were driven primarily by two bishops (now retired). They were used experimentally. In 2002 General Synod passed legislation called “The Worship Template” which effected the allowance of these rites in our province officially. Yes – you guessed it: driven by the same two bishops. These bishops ordained and licensed gay persons in committed same sex relationships. Many others have used these services – right up to bishops. <br />New Zealand loves being first in things.<br />(eg: we were the first to have a woman diocesan bishop!)<br />One day, when the dust settles: NZ will proudly claim – we were the first to officially allow the Liturgy for the Blessing of a Relationship.<br /><br />That’s if our church survives ;-)liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-47648136955773257072010-10-26T13:10:23.490+13:002010-10-26T13:10:23.490+13:00Youth is on your side, David! (I am 50!!).
I woul...Youth is on your side, David! (I am 50!!).<br /><br />I would think 50 years would be long enough for some things to become manifest about significant change in Anglican life.<br /><br />May we both live that long because there are no more major earthquakes, nor nuclear terrorism, etc!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41029104576587920362010-10-26T13:00:27.155+13:002010-10-26T13:00:27.155+13:00I think that I am the younger of us (46), so I hop...I <b>think</b> that I am the younger of us (46), so I hope to be here longer. But I also live in a much more dangerous social environment, as opposed to your earthquake prone physical environment, so who knows.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91572427168436484792010-10-26T12:41:20.316+13:002010-10-26T12:41:20.316+13:00Hi David,
You could be right (I do not dispute tha...Hi David,<br />You could be right (I do not dispute that), but you could be wrong (you dispute that). I wonder if we will live long enough to find out what happens!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-64639141191206918272010-10-26T12:33:14.735+13:002010-10-26T12:33:14.735+13:00As the outspoken gay man here from the Anglican Ch...As the outspoken gay man here from the Anglican Church of Mexico, I will tell you forcefully Peter, yes the Anglican Communion <b>will</b> have to go the route of TEC and AC Canada eventually. Obviously the developed provinces of ACANZP, AC Australia, CoE, SEC, CiWales, and AC Southern Africa, as well as the provinces in all of the Americas will be dealing with it much sooner than the provinces in the emerging nations of Africa and South Asia, but you will each be confronted with the intractable realities of human sexuality and the fact that sexual minorities will no longer be suppressed and treated as the unwanted step children or second class citizens. And you will have to recognize that history has been on the wrong side of dealing with human sexuality.<br /><br />If you do not, then the sad fact is that you unhappy lot will die out one day! The reality on the ground is that GLBTQ folks of my generation are just impatiently waiting for your demise. It is a harsh reality to speak about and perhaps it is awful to hear, but it is the truth. There will be a day in the future where the voices of bias, heterosexism, homophobia, genderphobia and discrimination will be an ever tinier background noise in the on going social evolution of humanity. Bishop John Shelby Spong is correct, the Church will change or the church will die.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-85515963729978639812010-10-26T11:54:27.032+13:002010-10-26T11:54:27.032+13:00Hi Suem,
I agree that theoretically the Communion...Hi Suem,<br /><br />I agree that theoretically the Communion could get on with its life and pay no attention to TEC, believing that it is fading from view. The present situation, however, practically speaking, could be assisted by TEC taking the initiative of standing aside from some forthcoming meetings.<br /><br />Sexuality and gay rights are issues everywhere. The way we respond to them in the Communion is important. In my view the response does not need to be the response TEC has made (as though TEC is the brave pioneer charting the path we all must inevitably catch up with one day sooner or later).<br /><br />Yes, I think decline in all Western churches is 'more subtle' than a direct causal link between 'policy on sexuality' and decline. In TEC's case, however, the decline is exacerbated by the way in which the parishes and dioceses disagreeing with General Convention have been handled. (And, yes, that has been a two way handling of relationship in that the parishes and dioceses which have left have played their role too).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54736408577091068722010-10-26T09:38:44.945+13:002010-10-26T09:38:44.945+13:00If TEC is in terminal decline, why even bother abo...If TEC is in terminal decline, why even bother about it anyhow? Why not just ignore what it does? Why go to all the bother and fuss of cutting something off that won't be there in a decade anyhow? If it is dying, it is not a threat. After all, sexuality and gay rights are not even an issue anywhere else in the world, are they? It's not as if the rest of the Communion is ever going to have to confront them, is it?<br /><br />Are you assuming a direct causal link between TEC's policy on sexuality and a decline in number, BTW? I guess it is more subtle than that.Suemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03128736092253293640noreply@blogger.com