tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post7420179590591098278..comments2024-03-30T00:33:32.285+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: John on Scripture as the supreme, final authority on matters of faith and practicePeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91683546412274057902014-02-03T10:17:24.035+13:002014-02-03T10:17:24.035+13:00Hi Alison,
"So sola scriptura is not at all ...Hi Alison,<br /><br />"So sola scriptura is not at all a distinguishing Reformation concept."<br /><br />It depends what you mean. Neither the doctrine nor the term were invented by Protestant reformers. Both date back at least to the 13th century. The concept they describe is far older. <br /><br />"It is held by all Christians and always has."<br /><br />There have always been Christians who have held to it. That is quite different to saying that all Christians at all times have believed in it. <br /><br />"It is held by Catholics and Orthodox as fervently as Evangelicals."<br /><br />I don't think anyone has suggested that. Perhaps reading others' posts more carefully would be helpful?<br /><br />Finally, my apologies for calling you Roman Catholic when you are not. I should amend my comment above to: <br /><br />"Again, it escapes me why Shawn suddenly has the burden of writing down what you, as someone who claims to be so authoritative on Roman Catholic doctrine, ought to know already:..."MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74477212537555632802014-02-02T18:50:37.261+13:002014-02-02T18:50:37.261+13:00Thanks for the incredibly helpful clarification.
S...Thanks for the incredibly helpful clarification.<br />So sola scriptura is not at all a distinguishing Reformation concept.<br />It is held by all Christians and always has.<br />It is held by Catholics and Orthodox as fervently as Evangelicals.<br />It is not a distinguishing feature of Evangelicals.<br />Who knew?!<br /><br />Thanks so much!<br /><br />Alison<br /><br />Ps. Don’t know where MichaelA got his information that I am “Roman Catholic”, but then he has a tendency to imagine things about comments and commentators that were not actually said ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-92063134772812031822014-02-01T22:49:25.715+13:002014-02-01T22:49:25.715+13:00Thank you, MichaelA, for once again answering on b...Thank you, MichaelA, for once again answering on behalf of S.H. However you haven't really said anything that contradicts my statements. I am happy to drop the whole thing here.<br /><br />Tomorrow we will be able to concentrate of Jesus as "The Light to enlighten the Gentiles". Jesus alone is The Way, The Truth and The Life. There is none other. D.G.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-76062659245493943912014-02-01T18:52:46.632+13:002014-02-01T18:52:46.632+13:00"Thankyou, MichaelA, for attempting to answer..."Thankyou, MichaelA, for attempting to answer my question of Shawn Herles on his behalf. But was that not precisely what you were warning against in your last remark; when you told me not to expect someone else to do the research that I needed to confirm his assumptions?"<br /><br />No it wasn't, and I haven't "attempted to answer" anything. You took issue with Shawn's statement that the Roman Catholic Church purports to have a scriptural basis for its doctrine on the Assumption of the BVM. He wasn't saying that HE believed in it, just that the RCC does claim such a scriptural basis for it. <br /><br />You demanded that Shawn tell you chapter and verse which scriptures the RCC relies on. I pointed out that this is publicly available information, set out in the relevant Apostolic Constitution, which is a well-known document and easily accessible on the Vatican web-site. <br /><br />"This is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church , by Tradition, not Scripture!!!"<br /><br />I think the Pope has a much better idea of the basis for RCC doctrine than you do. He clearly based it on scripture as well as tradition. You may not agree with his interpretation of scripture, but you cannot say that he and his successor don't believe it. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-24631027077443088422014-02-01T12:19:17.993+13:002014-02-01T12:19:17.993+13:00Thankyou, MichaelA, for attempting to answer my qu...Thankyou, MichaelA, for attempting to answer my question of Shawn Herles on his behalf. But was that not precisely what you were warning against in your last remark; when you told me not to expect someone else to do the research that I needed to confirm his assumptions?<br /><br />I would still liker S.H. to give me chapter and verse on his assumption about The Assumption. (I have my own opinion on the phenomenon, but I am not going to offer it a a 'proof text').<br /><br />On the other hand, I accept the 'Assumption of the BVM as a real possibility (but not actually contained in Scripture) judging merely by the fact that Elijah was 'taken up to heaven in a whirly-wind. And if this really happened to a mere prophet of God; why not the Mother of God's divine Son?<br />This is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church , by Tradition, not Scripture!!! - Unless you accept that the "woman, adorned with the sun, standing on the moon, and with twelve stars on her head for a crown" -was actually a vision of the BVM.<br /><br />Perhaps S.H. or someone else can tell me whether a Sola Scriptura person who is not a Roman Catholic would accept that this could be the Mother of Jesus - or not?<br /><br />That might then tell us whether the Doctrine of the Assumption of the BVM was 'Scriptural' or merely 'Tradition'.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3303629428001862862014-01-31T12:12:09.871+13:002014-01-31T12:12:09.871+13:00"It might help us, Shawn, if you showed us wh..."It might help us, Shawn, if you showed us where in Scripture is the Immaculate Conception of Mary, her perpetual virginity, her Glorious bodily Assumption into heaven, and being Mediatrix of all graces?"<br /><br />Again, it escapes me why Shawn suddenly has the burden of writing down what you, as a Roman Catholic, ought to know already: <br /><br />• Re immaculate conception, Pope Pius IX in Ineffabilis Deus considered that the doctrine is "wonderfully illustrated and proclaimed" by Holy Scripture. Now you might disagree with that (I have a number of Roman Catholic friends who consider one or more recent Popes to be anti-Popes, so I make no assumptions about your precise beliefs). But if you do dispute His Holiness' opinion, then say so, and we can dig down further into previous dogmatic documents which set out the scriptural proofs on which Pius IX and his bishops relied. <br /><br />• Re perpetual virginity – have a look at footnote 20 to Chapter VIII of Lumen Gentium. Pope Paul relies on the works of St Ambrose and St Augustine, who based the doctrine on scriptural grounds, chiefly Ezekiel 44. <br /><br />• Re glorious bodily assumption, read the numerous scripture proofs put forward in Munificentissimus Deus<br /><br />• Re "Mediatrix of all graces" (your words) – This is not Roman dogma. It may become dogma at some point in future, at which point we can be quite sure the relevant instrument will set out scriptural proofs for it. <br /><br />Note that in the above I am not saying that I agree with the various scriptural proofs put forward for these doctrines, but the idea that the RCC does not purport to rely on scripture to found every one of its doctrines is misconceived. Shawn was correct.MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-22465754745853936352014-01-31T10:26:44.708+13:002014-01-31T10:26:44.708+13:00"And which Scriptures in particular would the..."And which Scriptures in particular would these be, Shawn? Chapter and verse, please."<br /><br />What did your last slave die of, Fr Ron? :)<br /><br />The dogma of the Assumption of the BVM was defined in the Apostolic Constitution of Pius XII. It is one of the most well-known RC documents, being one of only two ex-Cathedra pronouncements so far made. <br /><br />It is replete with scripture references, as Shawn said. <br /><br />Its name is Munificentissimus Deus, and the English translation is easy to find on the Vatican website.MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-83449443188539196582014-01-31T08:16:35.760+13:002014-01-31T08:16:35.760+13:00A horse, Bryden?! Is this an example of extra-bibl...A <i>horse</i>, Bryden?! Is this an example of extra-biblical "special revelation", or just the result of sucking extra meaning out of the story? Or am I to read you metaphorically? ;-)<br /><br />Blessings<br /><br />Boscoliturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-90430360817372366662014-01-30T23:12:29.845+13:002014-01-30T23:12:29.845+13:00" The Assumption and other doctrines are cons..." The Assumption and other doctrines are considered by the RC to be already implicit in Scripture, and the RC has never taught that Tradition can add anything that is not already implied in the written Word." - Shawn Herles -<br /><br />And which Scriptures in particular would these be, Shawn? Chapter and verse, please.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-30506384214581359842014-01-30T20:59:37.651+13:002014-01-30T20:59:37.651+13:00Shawn
Firstly, I take offence at your saying that...Shawn<br /><br />Firstly, I take offence at your saying that I am making an assumption - please indicate clearly where I do so. Secondly, my quotes were not "a good example of theological skim reading". <br /><br />I NEVER said, "Two distinct sources means two conflicting sources" - please indicate where I state this. <br /><br />You claim that "RC teach that Tradition is commentary on Scripture" (January 26, 2014 at 12:31 AM). I contested that, and continue to do so. I await your demonstrating that this is in fact RC teaching. You have yet to provide a single reputable RC teaching to back up your claim. I have provided several to back up mine.<br /><br />Alison<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33536208524077402022014-01-30T20:53:06.501+13:002014-01-30T20:53:06.501+13:00Touché, Peter.
Certainly Syria has problems whic...Touché, Peter. <br /><br />Certainly Syria has problems which include divisions within Islam. <br />I think, however, that it stretches the point too far to say "Islam is notorious for its sects and divisions. These lie at the heart of much conflict in the Middle East." But I don't really want to press my distracting point. <br /><br />AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43031161820536134582014-01-30T10:57:44.169+13:002014-01-30T10:57:44.169+13:00Hi Alision,
Sorry for the lateness of my response...Hi Alision,<br /><br />Sorry for the lateness of my response. I have recently had surgery on my right arm and have a very limited ability to type, and sometimes due to pain, none at all.<br /><br />I have read both the V2 documents (all of them)as well as the CCC and two other Catholic catechisms.<br /><br />Your assumption is a good example of theological skim reading.<br /><br />Two distinct sources does not mean two conflicting sources, nor does it mean that Tradition adds things that are not already implicit in Scripture. The Assumption and other doctrines are considered by the RC to be already implicit in Scripture, and the RC has never taught that Tradition can add anything that is not already implied in the written Word.<br /><br />Ron's notion of entirely new revelations that may contradict Scripture has not and never has been taught by the RCC.<br /><br />The two source theory is best understood as two parallel railroad tracks. Both are necessary to each other and must run congruent to each other, not at odds.<br /><br />So my original assertion is right. No major branch of the Church teaches entirely new revelations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89543397868992861842014-01-29T22:55:26.217+13:002014-01-29T22:55:26.217+13:00" This much truth we may also deduce from Scr..." This much truth we may also deduce from Scripture quite easily!" - BB<br /><br />Yes, Bryden. But, "the truth of the pudding is in the eating", as they say. We need to constantly be DOING what Jesus commanded of us in the Eucharist, for the health of the Body that is constituted thereby. Jesus did make a promise, but so many in the Church fail to see the real value of Doing This! They seem to prefer, hearing about it in the Scriptures.<br /><br />A bit like 'agape'. Eucharist has to be constantly experienced to be of any lasting value.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-85182025145220565142014-01-29T12:05:27.602+13:002014-01-29T12:05:27.602+13:00A nice play on words Ron! And there is richer theo...A nice play on words Ron! And there is richer theological merit in the notion: traditionally, there has always been a direct link among the celebration of the Eucharist, the elements of bread and wine so used, and the Church, either as local gathering or Catholic whole. This much truth we may also deduce from Scripture quite easily!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70315223203750110652014-01-28T22:21:35.065+13:002014-01-28T22:21:35.065+13:00" we still cannot go further and suck additio..." we still cannot go further and suck additional ‘meaning’ re this Presence apart from Scripture." BB<br /><br />You're right Bryden. Wed do not. Sufficient to settle this matter is to quote Jesus own words, re the sacrament of the eucharist:<br /><br />"DO THIS to remember ME!"<br /><br />I remember the words of a rather distinguished American theologian, an expert in liturgics, telling us students at St. John's College, that the meaning of those words of Jesus might logically be extended to mean, in English, "Do this to re-member me" - in other words, to re-constitute my Body in the circumstances of the Eucharist.<br /><br />This, I guess, is what the majority of Christians - who are in the Catholic and Orthodox branches of the Church Universal - are really saying when they speak about' The Real Presence'. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-23852485941416945722014-01-27T13:04:04.587+13:002014-01-27T13:04:04.587+13:00Hi Peter,
My long post wasn’t a response to Fr R...Hi Peter, <br /><br />My long post wasn’t a response to Fr Ron, but to John. <br /><br />I was fairly hard on him in my first response (and to be fair, he was pretty negative about Anglicans and protestants in general without saying what he believed in!) , but when I re-read the article and the thread I realised none of us had set out why we believe scripture to be inspired and authoritative. But my post did turn out rather longer than I expected!MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10885502026412756082014-01-27T13:01:31.784+13:002014-01-27T13:01:31.784+13:00Hi Fr Ron,
That’s a good question. I was thinki...Hi Fr Ron, <br /><br />That’s a good question. I was thinking of the places where Christ taught the disciples things before he left this earth, which they did not understand until after he had risen from the dead, see e.g. Mark 9:30-32. <br /><br />But I am not disagreeing with you that there was revelation after Christ left this earth – to the Apostles. We are specifically told that the mystery of Christ has been made known to all people through His apostles (Ephesians 3:4-5).<br /><br />The account of the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 says that the crowd heard the disciples praising God. But they only heard Peter the apostle teaching. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75028965061189333932014-01-27T11:49:58.815+13:002014-01-27T11:49:58.815+13:00Morning Ron. Re the last element of your comment J...Morning Ron. Re the last element of your comment January 26, 2014 at 9:26 AM and St Paul. Mmmm...<br /><br />If one tries to engage in the discussion these last few years around how St Paul generated his own appreciation of Messiah Jesus, I fancy you have it really rather lopsided! <br /><br />Step 1: we have an astute budding rabbi, young and eager, profoundly steeped in the Jewish Scriptures, and belonging to the Pharisaic sect.<br />Step 2: he gets knocked off his horse by a revelation of the Risen Messiah<br />Step 3: what to make of this and how? By squeezing the Scriptures in ways that he had hitherto not appreciated (in “Arabia”?). The work of Francis Watson, <i>Paul and the Hermeneutics of Faith</i> (2004), suggests a most plausible way in which he engages with other Jews of his day and their methodologies in handling the Scriptures. Link this entire first century debate with the likes now of NTW and his mammoth recent work PLUS his recent <i>Perspectives</i> collection of essays (I’ve started reading that backwards and so am finding it most helpful as a means of coming to grips with his magnum opus).<br />Step 4: There is no way of gainsaying the role of the Scriptures, read as an entire narrative (cf. Luke 24 in three vignettes which deliberately make up an entire whole), in our own exegesis of the “exegesis” of the Son’s Revelation of the Father.<br /><br />Anything else, claiming to be revelation, is simply of a class traditionally deemed “spiritualist”. (We read for example even Julian of Norwich or Catherine of Sienna via the lenses crafted from our grappling with the canonical Scriptures.) Yes; the Eucharist is granted us as a means of God’s gracious good Presence. In good Augustinian style, the catechism defines a sacrament as “an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto us ... as a means whereby we receive the same, and a pledge to assure us thereof.” Notwithstanding the limitations of this Augustinian framework, we still cannot go further and suck additional ‘meaning’ re this Presence apart from Scripture. Jesus does not utter new speak from such a “pledge”, for example! I fancy St Paul would really rather wonder how else than by means of the “oracles of God” we may appreciate the significance of Messiah Jesus at the Right Hand of the Throne of Yahweh!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-38967549243693024462014-01-27T10:54:55.822+13:002014-01-27T10:54:55.822+13:00Hi Alison
(This is not your main point ... but) is...Hi Alison<br />(This is not your main point ... but) is it true that book-based Islam is more 'effective' a religion than book-based Christianity?<br /><br />Islam is notorious for its sects and divisions. These lie at the heart of much conflict in the Middle East. Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-77367433363790781382014-01-27T10:43:12.804+13:002014-01-27T10:43:12.804+13:00MichaelA writes
“"Christians using the Bible...MichaelA writes<br /><br />“"Christians using the Bible as their final authority are in disagreement about everything except that the Bible is the supreme, final authority on matters of faith and practice!"<br /><br />No they aren't. Christians who don't hold to such a view have far more disagreements.’<br /><br />Dear MichaelA<br /><br />You regularly make preposterous and illogical assertions, but this piece of tosh cannot be allowed to stand without challenge.<br /><br />Catholics, who are the majority of Christians not holding to your view of “the Bible as their final authority”, far from having “far more disagreements” as you assert, actually do agree with each other on the things on John’s list. Orthodox are another such a group.<br /><br />As for the fault lying “ firmly with us”, that’s like half the purchasers finding that a product doesn’t do what they expect it to do, and the manufacturer saying “It’s your fault. I made it perfect for the job you are trying to get it to do.” Manufacturers are conscious of the need of user-focused design.<br /><br />If you want a successful book-based religion Islam is more effective.<br /><br />AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75462748829560140532014-01-27T10:35:21.278+13:002014-01-27T10:35:21.278+13:00Hi Michael/Ron
I wonder if, to save your commentin...Hi Michael/Ron<br />I wonder if, to save your commenting time, and my moderating time, we agree on this common ground: however the New Testament documents came to be written down, whatever the role of the pre-resurrection and post-resurrection Jesus and Pentecostal Spirit in the content of the New Testament, the New Testament is special and unique.<br /><br />The questions before us, as they have been before the church since, is the nature and status of revelation after the apostolic period, along with questions of 'who' determines what is revelation and what is not. Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-71553325785986852342014-01-27T10:23:36.785+13:002014-01-27T10:23:36.785+13:00"Except that we are not told that the Spirit ..."Except that we are not told that the Spirit "was only then teaching them" these things, are we, Fr Ron?"<br /><br /> - MichaelA -<br /><br />Just the use of human logic, Michael, might tell you that the knowledge the disciples gained of the efficacy of Christ Crucified, risen and glorified, could not have been given to them by the Jesus who had not yet experienced those subsequent marks of His power to redeem. This knowledge was not available until AFTER the events described. <br /><br />OR, are you suggesting that, somehow, the disciples knew what were the actual benefits that were to only occur by virtue of the later events - before they actually happened? pre-Osmosis?<br /><br />Let's speak logic here - if you really want to engage in the arguments, get the facts right. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3971904891892359312014-01-27T01:31:40.405+13:002014-01-27T01:31:40.405+13:00Good point Peter. John 1:18 is one of several pas...Good point Peter. John 1:18 is one of several passages where Jesus tells us that He is the only way by which mankind may cross the gulf between them and the all-holy and all-loving God. Without Jesus to atone for our sin, God would have no alternative but to blot us out of His sight. But its worth looking at *why* scripture is the primary vehicle by which we know God:<br /><br />1. Christ put his Church under the authority of His apostles, from the first moment of the Church's existence. He not only gave them supreme authority to command and to teach, but also to convey His direct divine revelation to His church. Thus there was never a moment of the Church's existence when it was not under apostolic authority: <br /><br />"In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets." [Ephesians 3:4-5]<br /><br />"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." [Ephesians 2:19-20]<br /><br />"I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles." [2 Peter 3:2]<br /><br />2. Christ gave the apostles authority to write scripture, and their written words conveyed all the essential parts of their oral teaching:<br /><br />"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." [2 Thessalonians 2:15]<br /><br />"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." [John 20:30-31]<br /><br />"For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages”." [1 Timothy 5:18]<br /><br />3. Christ gave no power to the apostles to pass on their ministry. Each of them were chosen directly by God, and none were commissioned to replace them. When the last apostle left the earth, the apostolic revelation was at an end:<br />Acts 1:20-25<br />2 Tim 2:2<br /><br />4. The apostles left their writings as scripture. By this apostolic teaching and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Church is prepared to deal with everything that will come its way until Christ's return:<br />2 Peter 3:2<br /><br />5. This does not mean that scripture is the only authority for the Christian, but self-evidently it is the highest authority, the lens through which everything else is viewed. Study of the Scriptures brings much happiness and prepares us for all other avenues of study and endeavour, as great theologians from the past remind us:<br /><br />"The outcome or the fruit of reading holy Scripture is by no means negligible: it is the fullness of eternal happiness. For these are the books which tell us of eternal life, which were written not only that we might believe but also that we might have everlasting life. When we do live that life we shall understand fully, we shall love completely, and our desires will be totally satisfied. Then, with all our needs fulfilled, we shall truly know the love that surpasses understanding and so be filled with the fullness of God. The purpose of the Scriptures, which come to us from God, is to lead us to this fullness according to the truths contained in those sayings of the apostles to which I have referred."[St Bonaventure, "The Breviloquium", Prologue]<br /><br />"For it is true that the more richly we are fed on those things in sacred scripture which nourish us through obedience, the more precisely we are carried on to those things which satisfy through understanding." [St Anselm of Canterbury, "On the Incarnation of the Word", I]MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8565204872375766022014-01-27T00:20:20.118+13:002014-01-27T00:20:20.118+13:00"Peter, your phrase 'what Jesus had ALREA..."Peter, your phrase 'what Jesus had ALREADY taught' betrays the actual reality of what began to occur on the Day of Pentecost; when Jesus' disciples were 'filled with the Holy Spirit' and began to teach what the Spirit was only then teaching them about the value of the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus."<br /><br />Except that we are not told that the Spirit "was only then teaching them" these things, are we, Fr Ron? <br /><br />Just a little detail you decided to add, on your own authority, was it? We are fortunate to have your apostolic authority to guide us, Fr Ron!<br /><br />In any case, Christ gave his revelation through his apostles - we should expect to see direct revelation from God up until the end of the Apostolic age. Of course, there have always been people who have tried to argue that revelation continued on after that time - such revelation usually coming through themselves, of course! But Christ made no such promise to us, so anyone who thinks so is relying only on themselves. <br /><br />"This is only one reason why the Church, in her liturgy, still says: "Maranatha, even so, come Lord Jesus!""<br /><br />Really Father Ron? What is your basis for the assertion that it is one reason at all?MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72404805317784045882014-01-27T00:11:41.409+13:002014-01-27T00:11:41.409+13:00"Disagreements on this site exemplify the pro..."Disagreements on this site exemplify the problem with your reduction to Scripture as the supreme, final authority on matters of faith and practice."<br /><br />Its not reductionism, just the belief of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church throughout the ages. <br /><br />"Christians using the Bible as their final authority are in disagreement about everything except that the Bible is the supreme, final authority on matters of faith and practice!"<br /><br />No they aren't. Christians who don't hold to such a view have far more disagreements. <br /><br />"In short, there is no thing where Christians agree on what the Bible teaches."<br /><br />Actually, most Christians agree about most things. In any case, that is not God's problem. He left scripture as the true record of apostolic teaching and if we Christians fail to read it properly, the fault lies firmly with us. <br /><br />"Far from being a positive argument, yours is the strongest argument against the Protestant approach"<br /><br />Actually, you seem to have put forward a very strong argument in favour of the Protestant approach, if this is the best you can do against it. <br /><br />"You have just powerfully demonstrated the inadequacy of Protestantism. And worse, if your equation can be read in both directions, you have just powerfully demonstrated the inadequacy of your God."<br /><br />A comment that says a great deal about you. As you treat God's people, so do you treat God.MichaelAnoreply@blogger.com