tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post7807800683477328889..comments2024-03-30T00:33:32.285+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Time for another quo vadis post?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89365808107139576212014-03-03T10:46:56.190+13:002014-03-03T10:46:56.190+13:00I think this answers well the title of your post P...I think this answers well the title of your post Peter:<br /><br />http://www.globalsouthanglican.org/index.php/blog/comments/statement_from_the_global_south_primates_steering_committee_cairo_egypt_14<br /><br />This is not GAFCON but the GS as a whole; and they have had enough!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72011815667801328932014-02-24T23:15:01.679+13:002014-02-24T23:15:01.679+13:00Even if that were true, Fr Ron, doesn't it sup...Even if that were true, Fr Ron, doesn't it support my point?MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8411187638638450292014-02-23T20:08:24.993+13:002014-02-23T20:08:24.993+13:00"I suggest this is a rather shallow view. Sur..."I suggest this is a rather shallow view. Sure, every country subscribes to human rights- including some who are very oppressive in practice"<br /><br /> - MichaelA - <br /><br />And how many of these countries are located in GAFCON territory, Michael, as opposed to the 'liberal' West - which, in your belief is 'going to the dogs"?Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-14502262890397858712014-02-21T23:49:05.389+13:002014-02-21T23:49:05.389+13:00"Secular society has so completely embraced t..."Secular society has so completely embraced the Christian ethic that we have less to set us apart."<br /><br />I would call that a pretty naive statement by Ms de la Bere. Secular society likes to tell itself that it has embraced Christian ethic - but that doesn't mean it has. <br /><br />"The universal acceptance of human rights is effectively a global and secular working out of the Christian agenda, and consequently, what we have to offer is less startling."<br /><br />I suggest this is a rather shallow view. Sure, every country subscribes to human rights- including some who are very oppressive in practice. <br /><br />If one wants to look *only* at what countries or people subscribe to (as opposed to what they do) then sure, secular society is very godly. But the reality is very different. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91987360443847140802014-02-20T22:54:16.608+13:002014-02-20T22:54:16.608+13:00Bryden. Your arguments here are just a wee bit sus...Bryden. Your arguments here are just a wee bit suspect. While agreeing with my statement, sector by sector, you proceed to then produce your own version of what hermeneutic process is all about. You could well be a rather clever lawyer with your skills for obfuscation, but I am not convinced with the results. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-36279284929262753752014-02-20T11:47:45.228+13:002014-02-20T11:47:45.228+13:00That’s just great! Many thanks Ron for the clarity...That’s just great! Many thanks Ron for the clarity of your response. It reveals in such a short space the vast gulf that is between us! How so?<br /><br />Well; let’s parse your comment.<br /><br />“St. Paul was offering his advice to the Romans of his day”: in the first instance that is surely, historically correct. All the books and letters and things of what became the NT were once upon a time ad hoc pieces of writing, with specific communities in mind and with specific agendas by the writers. But that’s just the beginning of things ...<br /><br />“a rather different society from today's more enlightened society.” True; there are vast differences between the 1st C ancient Mediterranean world and the 21st C western world(s). That said however, you have merely jettisoned the entire enterprise known as “hermeneutics” - see below.<br /><br />As for “today's more enlightened society”: yes; in some respects we today have indeed benefitted from precisely Imogen de la Bere’s “Christian agenda” these past 2000 years. DG! BUT THAT IS NOT THE FULL STORY. It is staggeringly naive to think this 21st C is the pinnacle of human enlightenment. You display a really rather sad reading of human history. Again; see below.<br /><br />“Context is all”: Indeed it is. And that context places Romans at the start of the Epistles in the Canon of the founding documents of the Christian Faith, which for centuries has determined the Church’s true nature and purpose. Canonicity has to do with Christian identity, Ron. True enough again; that just precipitates an entire hermeneutical engagement with those documents on the one hand, AND our own contemporary horizon on the other (NB the nod to Hans-Georg Gadamer). <i>Quo vadis</i> indeed ...<br /><br />Thanks again for the clarity with which you reveal the vast gulf that is set between us two.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-553870113217741732014-02-19T22:47:48.657+13:002014-02-19T22:47:48.657+13:00Just one corrective for you, Bryden. st. Paul was ...Just one corrective for you, Bryden. st. Paul was offering his advice to the Romans of his day - a rather different society from today's more enlightened society. Context is all.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-83452872504334020322014-02-19T12:49:43.690+13:002014-02-19T12:49:43.690+13:00Imogen de la Bere is indeed putting her finger upo...Imogen de la Bere is indeed putting her finger upon a most important thing Ron. Yet both you and she also fail to notice an equally important aspect of this entire development of an idea and its effective practice.<br /><br />As an initial aside firstly - which nonetheless is absolutely basic. The “Christian agenda” has as its premise the understanding of God and so of Reality, and notably human reality in the “image” of that God, to be Triune. As Walter Kasper sums it up: “The need was to reflect upon the data of Scripture and tradition and to break away from the one-sidedly essentialist thinking of Greek philosophy and into a personalist thinking ... laying the foundation of a new type of thought.”<br /><br />It is this notion of personhood which has become part and parcel of our general understanding of the human. There is however another, absolutely crucial factor to consider, one which again has its roots in theology - or in this case, an a-theology. For the sake of simplicity, I’ll root it in the 17th C, and the sowing of the seeds of what became the Enlightenment in the following century. In a word: autonomy.<br /><br />When the notion of human personhood is allied to the notion of human autonomy, then we have frankly a bastard child of the Christian faith and the Christian agenda. Failure to appreciate this (mostly, by western Christians who are quite simply immersed in this cultural pond water, ‘naturally and obviously’) is by and large the cause of much confusion in the Church today. And it behoves us to adhere to Rom 12:1-2 in as profound a manner as possible. Otherwise the Church will be captured by the father of lies, and know only slavery again.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-828379001368509052014-02-18T21:53:54.402+13:002014-02-18T21:53:54.402+13:00It is a kind thought, Ron, that I might be attendi...It is a kind thought, Ron, that I might be attending the meeting tomorrow convened by the Archbishop, but that is a misreading: I was not invited (which is fine as some eminently suitable people have been).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-11926785937381843492014-02-18T18:52:16.824+13:002014-02-18T18:52:16.824+13:00If you will allow a quotation from 'Anglican T...If you will allow a quotation from 'Anglican Taonga', Peter, in which your own writing features, I would like to post here a comment by the Kiwi writer, Imogen de la Bere, a Lay Anglican living in England, who also has an article in the same edition. Here she comments on the Church v Society, today:<br /><br />"I sometimes think Christianity has been too successful for the good of the church. The universal acceptance of human rights is effectively a global and secular working out of the Christian agenda, and consequently, what we have to offer is less startling.<br />Secular society has so completely embraced the Christian ethic that we have less to set us apart. It is commonly accepted that each individual is valuable and his or her person-hood is sacrosanct.<br /> Ironically the church now lags behind liberal society. It’s as if we laid down the path, showed it to the world, and they have sprinted ahead of us." <br /><br />I think this statement, succinct as it is, might fairly sum up a valid view of how the Church today is not coping with the advance of civil society, on matters of justice and freedom consonant with the Good News of the Gospel.<br /><br />Dare one hope that the meeting that you, and the bishop of Nelson will be attending - on matters of gender and sexuality in ACANZP - will be cognisant of the real possibility that Imogen is correct in her thinking? Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43293053248382067672014-02-18T15:00:53.965+13:002014-02-18T15:00:53.965+13:00Re (2): Should it become as you suggest a matter o...Re (2): Should it become as you suggest a matter of "blessing", then I'd hope those in authority (yes; pun intended - #3) pay most careful attention to:<br /><br />http://www.anglicancommunioninstitute.com/2009/06/blessing-a-scriptural-and-theological-reflection/<br /><br />This an article by Ephraim Radner originally published in June 2009, as the archival link directs.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.com