tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post7938296111548887289..comments2024-03-30T00:33:32.285+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Best Archbishop's Advent Statement Ever?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-849177824833667062013-12-18T06:08:05.241+13:002013-12-18T06:08:05.241+13:00Whoops, the last sentence of the first para of the...Whoops, the last sentence of the first para of the above comment should end with "night" not "not."Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-18347934969616131062013-12-18T06:07:10.875+13:002013-12-18T06:07:10.875+13:00Hi Ron,
I am happy to wear my clerical robes at an...Hi Ron,<br />I am happy to wear my clerical robes at an installation as a sign of respect and support for a fellow member of the clergy as an important moment in their service of God takes place. (I am also happy not to so dress, as other members of the clergy did that not).<br /><br />I am comfortable robing to preside at communion in formal services and according to parish custom, and conversely when parish custom does not so require (e.g. When I was a vicar in Blenheim some years ago). I do not object to clergy robing per se, nor to the presiding priest wearing as many (or as few) robes as they see fit to enable their presiding to give glory to God. <br /><br />Our guide should be Jesus himself. Whether today he would wear a collar and tie, an open necked shirt, a T shirt, a clerical shirt, an alb, with or without chasuble, a cassock and surplice, with black scarf or coloured stole, I do not know. What I do know is that he gave no instructions which require any specific form of dress when ministering in his name!<br /><br />However the discipline of our church requires the wearing of robes when presiding at communion at that is fine by me.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-68336539411776271062013-12-17T23:10:58.127+13:002013-12-17T23:10:58.127+13:00But, Peter, despite your fervent inner feelins exp...But, Peter, despite your fervent inner feelins expressed here, you still wore your spotless white alb, clerical collar and stole, which marked you out - like it or not - in your own words, as a hierarchical Church member.<br /><br />If you really believed in what you were saying, you would be like the former archbishop of Sydney, who was content to wear collar and tie in his leading of worship - or the Bishop of Nelson, to wear jeans and open-necked shirt when he was celebrating the Eucharist.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-37156174975772879262013-12-17T22:57:17.136+13:002013-12-17T22:57:17.136+13:00Hi Ron
My dig at robes is not a dig at raiments wo...Hi Ron<br />My dig at robes is not a dig at raiments worn to symbolise the glorification of God in Christian worship. I very carefully made the dig about what robes mean in respect of the glorification of the church as an institution when simultaneously we are trying to proclaim the authentic simplicity of discipleship in gospel mode (when no one dressed up to follow Jesus and the church was a gathering if people around Jesus and not an institution).<br /><br />To my way of thinking we have robes in Anglican life which are unnecessary. It is not necessary to illustrate rank, for instance, with Archdeacons dressing differently to other clergy. It is not necessary for robes, if they are going to be worn to be taken on and off during a service. It is certainly not necessary for God to be glorified to have a reader bowing to the verger!<br /><br />I cannot imagine even the headiest heights of AngloCatholicism requiring that robes be worn to indicate hierarchical roles. That is the glorification of humanity, not the glorification of God.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-25011705155282264152013-12-17T19:13:19.689+13:002013-12-17T19:13:19.689+13:00Having had the privilege of sharing a part of my t...Having had the privilege of sharing a part of my theological education with both Bishop Kelvin and Archbishop Philip - during a period of lively theological fecundity at St. john's College in Auckland - I can say, without fear of contradiction that both of these have been called by our loving God to lead in today's assembly of ACANZP. Their obvious love of all God's children equips them to cope with all situations of worldly-seeming 'success' - in times both good and not-so-good. <br /><br />Their preaching skills - though short on scathing rhetoric towards God's world - is yet prophetic, in its reminder to the Church of Whom and what we are called to serve as both clergy and people of the Anglican Church in Aotearoa/N.Z.<br /><br />Both the Archbishop's sermon to us at St. Michael's, Christchurch at Micahelmas, and the Bishop Kelvin's sermon to our diocese on Sunday night at Dean Lynda's Installation, have been paradigms of the Good News of Jesus Christ to the world for which He died. You can't ask for more than that.<br /><br />And as for your dig about clergy raiment, Peter. If you only knew the intent of vestments, you would be aware that, like all the other appurtenances of liturgical celebration - e.g., those in the first Temple built by Solomon - are to demonstrate the glory and the beauty of God's-Self. But then. I suppose this could be mistaken for hubris on the part of the wearer - a bit like the use of a Harley-Davidson, or a 10kg Bible for a cult leader<br /><br />Remember the Scriptures: "In every place incense shall be offered unto my Name and a pure offering" says the Lord of Hosts". How many evangelical churches, with clergy in jeans and tee shirt, offer that sort of tribute to the glory of the Living God?<br /><br />(Anyway, I didn't robe on Sunday, but I noticed you there in pure white alb and stole).Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-82993172201275449192013-12-16T13:53:32.207+13:002013-12-16T13:53:32.207+13:00A few thoughts.
Embracing the view that the Churc...A few thoughts.<br /><br />Embracing the view that the Church should grow does not mean embracing the Church Growth Movement. I tend to thing the CGM is used as a strawman to attack those of us who do not see the catastrophic decline of the AC as a good thing. <br /><br />The problem of the corrosive effects of modernity is not confined to Liberalism. Evangelical churches need to do a great deal of soul searching and self-critique here as well. Far too much of modern Evangelicalism is exactly that, modern, as in embracing the ideology of the so-called Enlightenment. Taking on the odd "conservative" political cause here and there does not change that, it's just wallpapering over the cracks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-2118256309617663722013-12-16T13:16:11.488+13:002013-12-16T13:16:11.488+13:00Hi Ron,
Wonderful though it is to be praised, the ...Hi Ron,<br />Wonderful though it is to be praised, the words you cite in my name were penned by ++Philip!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61746708921096818462013-12-16T12:58:47.760+13:002013-12-16T12:58:47.760+13:00All I'm hearing in the address are excuses for...All I'm hearing in the address are excuses for failure. "Hey, we are more authentic and radical because we are declining!"<br /><br />Er...no. Decline is not a sign of being more authentic, or more radical. It's a sign of DECLINE.<br /><br />On the first Pentecost, after Peter preached, thousands came to saving faith in Christ. Thousands, in one day.<br /><br />The decline is not because the AC is more authentic or radical, it is because we have sold the power of the Gospel for a mess of modernist ideologies and idols.<br /><br />And far from being "on the margins" the Anglican Church in NZ is very much right in the center of the State's program of Cultural Marxism.<br /><br />The State says we must embrace the Treaty, so we embrace, uncritically, the Treaty.<br /><br />The State says we must embrace "Human Rights", so we embrace "human Rights".<br /><br />The State says we must embrace the ideology of multiculturalism, so we embrace the ideology of multiculturalism.<br /><br />The State says we must embrace gay rights, and what do you know.....<br /><br />We are not at the margins. We are in bed with the devil.<br /><br />And the Archbishop, who does not see the real problem, does not understand it, and has no answer to it, so gives us easy clichés about refocusing.<br /><br />Our leaders are asleep at the wheeel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63306826050074239312013-12-16T10:43:35.976+13:002013-12-16T10:43:35.976+13:00"As agents of God’s unchanging love, we are ..."As agents of God’s unchanging love, we are challenged to engage wholeheartedly in the world, proclaiming God’s justice, peace and love. This life is no waiting room; this is the time and place where we are a foretaste of a whole new way of being." - Peter Carrell -<br /><br />This is the most heartening statement I have yet encountered on ADU, Peter, since I began interacting on your blog.<br /><br />I'm reminded of last night's stunning Sermon by Bishop Kelvin Wright, whose diocese has suffered the most in ACANZP from attrition. He mentioned the fact that - despite everything going on around us - we often miss the substantial acts of Gospel-motivated Love and Care being exercised, often in a quiet unassuming way, by those Christians who do not seek the limelight, but have recognised God's call upon their lives - to loving service of the marginalised of our complex society.<br /><br />He also mentions something that I think is most important in the present context of arguments about the future of a Cathedral in The Square. Acknowledging the stunning utility of our transitional Cathedral, he reminded us of the fact that "Here is no abiding city", and that every cathedral - from ancient, through mediaeval to modern, is 'transitional' in its own time and space. <br /><br />In an exciting 15 minute sermon, we were treated to the Gospel truth, that we are not saved by dogma - that all we have to give is Love - which is at the heart of God and of all God's children. It just needs to be exercised!<br /><br />Gaudete!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-84930048842406107082013-12-16T09:08:46.862+13:002013-12-16T09:08:46.862+13:00Peter, you can be sure of one thing: when, 20 year...Peter, you can be sure of one thing: when, 20 years from now, Anglicans are deconsecrating the last of our buildings, turning it over to be used as a cafe/cinema, they will be carefully robed, each person signalling to the other their particular status and churchmanship, and making sure that the media reports the five participants using their correct titles.liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87017477321137503202013-12-16T08:20:58.900+13:002013-12-16T08:20:58.900+13:00Hi Bosco,
There is quite a lot to think about re n...Hi Bosco,<br />There is quite a lot to think about re numbers: Jesus envisages only a few being chosen yet sets his disciples to preach the gospel to the whole world ...<br /><br />On the one hand I am unashamedly a 'church growth' proponent. I think we should try to grow the church rather than (say) complacently accept the status quo (even if that is the current church building filled each Sunday) or wring our hands in despair as numbers decline.<br /><br />On the other hand I understand that filled churches may mean little about (say) whether the truth is being preached faithfully and (say) a lot about marketing techniques.<br /><br />On the matter of little time: I understand that lower numbers likely means a refined church (and thus a good thing). I am making the point that it is one thing to move from vast numbers of not actually committed folk to the faithful few and another thing to move from the faithful few to nobody left.<br /><br />Indeed I recall one of those bloggers present last night mentioning recently that the graph suggests the Anglican church here will not exist in a couple of decades time :)<br /><br />As for "your" argument for the virtues of destruction ... that's also an argument for the virtues of war!?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-44093732391924457562013-12-16T07:56:07.312+13:002013-12-16T07:56:07.312+13:00Yes, great missed photo opportunity! :-(
Just as ...Yes, great missed photo opportunity! :-(<br /><br />Just as some here regard growing church numbers as a sign and blessing of orthodoxy (even though Kevin Ward has established that it is essentially sheep-stealing, and only 3.9% are actually converts), so we can tend to the opposite also.<br /><br />Nineteenth century anglo-catholic priests would be distressed if their congregations were more than a few because they would suspect the purity and radicalness of their gospel preaching and life. <br /><br />Your second point already veers from the shrinking-is-a-good-sign paradigm with your fear that we have little time.<br /><br />We live in the midst of some who interpret shrinking-as-a-good-sign in statements about the destruction of our city being good economically. If that were the case, we should regularly destroy a city to improve our country’s economy!<br /><br />Advent Blessings<br /><br />Boscoliturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.com