tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post8384726132771748715..comments2024-03-29T06:58:28.383+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Who would really, really want to be a Calvinist?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-39079972399099579392014-07-27T18:24:44.243+12:002014-07-27T18:24:44.243+12:00"Sometimes, it's just a benefit to become..."Sometimes, it's just a benefit to become (if one is not already) simply 'simple'."<br /><br />True. But unfortunately Paul (who dares warn us against letting anyone rob us of the simplicity that is in Christ) robs us of the simplicity that is in Christ with all his hairbrained theories.dave bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03481248763950817890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33676223911545461202014-03-20T11:26:24.918+13:002014-03-20T11:26:24.918+13:00"I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and of e..."I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and of earth, for revealing these things to the simple"<br /> - Jesus -<br /><br />Sometimes, it's just a benefit to become (if one is not already) simply 'simple'. All this controversy about predestination & free will just gives me a wee headache. It advances not one jot, tittle or iota, my Faith in God.<br /><br />"Where are your wise men now?"<br />(OR your wise women for that matter).Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8065147846656389492014-03-20T06:18:45.862+13:002014-03-20T06:18:45.862+13:00Hi Mark
I agree with your comment. I do not thin...Hi Mark<br /><br />I agree with your comment. I do not think predestination and free-will are at odds. Just as God knows "what we think before we thiink it"; does not mean God chooses what we think.<br /><br />In my opinion predestination means becoming like Christ but also a little wider in interpretation, that is God using who we are personally to perform specific jobs/tasks set out for us in advance.<br /><br />If it is helpful I often use the online bluelletter bible which has a lexicon which gives the meaning of the original hebrew and greek words as a tool if I am looking at a scripture passage wanting to understand it more.Jeanhttp://godismyglory.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-7161054710028205582014-03-20T05:51:35.272+13:002014-03-20T05:51:35.272+13:00Ah, yes, Michael, but if you think of yourself as ...Ah, yes, Michael, but if you think of yourself as totally depraved, are you a Calvinist?<br />:)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-25984417329752222622014-03-20T05:36:45.864+13:002014-03-20T05:36:45.864+13:00FRS
When people argue against Calvinism, they typ...FRS<br /><br />When people argue against Calvinism, they typically argue against the first four points. Most Arminians don't object to Perseverance. They simply corrupt it into OSAS, which is not the same thing. Hence the joke:<br /><br /><i>What do you call a one-point Calvinist? <br /><br />An Arminian.</i><br /><br />So the argument focuses on Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Limited Atonement. When you analyze the arguments presented against these four doctrines, you will quickly discern that the objections to these doctrines all focus on their implications for the nature of man. This is the offense of the Gospel to which I referred earlier. It has nothing to do with Total Depravity being the essence of Calvinism. People react to what offends them and their cherished self-image. <br /><br />Calvinism begins with Sovereign God and His Sovereign purpose to redeem a people for Himself. It begins with the knowledge that Creation is about God and not us; that He created us to display His glory through us. For that is the whole purpose of man - to display the glory of God. And every mother's son of us will fulfill that purpose. <br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-45152482560434758772014-03-20T00:54:32.952+13:002014-03-20T00:54:32.952+13:00Peter, Fr Ron's repeated question merely demon...Peter, Fr Ron's repeated question merely demonstrates his ignorance of Calvinism - any true Calvinist will immediately agree that they themselves are totally depraved. <br /><br />If they don't, they aren't really Calvinist. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-85038592817296938332014-03-20T00:51:53.570+13:002014-03-20T00:51:53.570+13:00"My answer to you, MichaelA, is based on the ..."My answer to you, MichaelA, is based on the direct opposition of the meaning of 'predestination' and 'freewill'."<br /><br />And my question was based on the direct opposition of the meaning of 'three'and 'one'. So you still haven't answered it. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91299054813327483622014-03-19T21:10:42.647+13:002014-03-19T21:10:42.647+13:00Hi Ron
My two cents' worth:
- a plausible way ...Hi Ron<br />My two cents' worth:<br />- a plausible way to understand freewill and predestination is to see them as both true (and paradoxical), a little like light being particles and waves, a lot like philosophers recognising the strength of arguments for both freewill and determinism;<br />- I think you misunderstand Carl. I understand him to be saying that the core of Calvinism is its anthropology in relation to theology: humanity in relation to God is 'totally depraved', infected by sin in every aspect of our lives and thus in need of a complete Saviour to wholly save us. From that basic supposition Calvin(ists) build Calvinism.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-58662208952184249292014-03-19T20:49:28.937+13:002014-03-19T20:49:28.937+13:00'Anonymous MichaelA said...
"However, one...'Anonymous MichaelA said...<br />"However, one can hardly perceive the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ actually being, of God's own volition, capable of both predestination, and at the same time offering Free Will to God's children."<br /><br />Why not?<br /><br />He is capable of being one and three at the same time; why can't he do these things?'<br /><br />My answer to you, MichaelA, is based on the direct opposition of the meaning of 'predestination' and 'freewill'.<br />________________________________<br /><br />To carljacobs:<br /><br />Please put you spectacles on and read again what you said, thus:<br /><br />'"n my experience, all objections to Calvinism are objections to Total Depravity" - carl jacobs'<br /><br />There can be no other logical understanding of this statement of yours, than that "ALL objections ARE objections to Total Depravity.<br /><br />ergo: Calvinism is Total Deparvity<br /><br />I still believe you didn't mean to actually say this. Admit it!<br /> Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-77855617745714327202014-03-19T15:49:56.883+13:002014-03-19T15:49:56.883+13:00Thanks Peter - I'll keep looking into it a bit...Thanks Peter - I'll keep looking into it a bit further. <br />Eph 1:11 is interesting and, based on what you've said Peter about the words used in Eph 1, I wonder if I've previously read these verses from the wrong perspective. I'm happy to stand corrected if I go off on a tangent or misrepresent God's Word but, in the context of the verses in Eph 1, here's my take on it:<br />God has chosen us (v4), picked out FOR HIMSELF those who have chosen by their own free will to accept His salvation as this is in accordance with His will (see 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is...not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance). Those He has chosen He has predestined or foreordained (v5) to be adopted as sons of God for His glory (v6).<br />Further in v11 we are predestined to show the glory of God which is the salvation HE has provided for all mankind. HE deserves the glory, honour and praise because HE has provided our salvation.<br /><br />So, rather than reading predestination as being about God hand picking a limited number of people to receive his salvation, perhaps it is about those who have chosen to accept His salvation and God has therefore picked out for Himself. Their predetermined destiny (i.e. predestination) is that their position before God in and through Christ shows God's glory and the gloriousness of His salvation.<br /><br />Similarly, Romans 8:29 refers to God's foreknowledge of those who would be in Christ and predestined to be conformed to be like Christ. God knew before time who would accept His salvation and those who have (and will) accept His salvation are predestined to be conformed to be like Christ.<br /><br />Food for thought and, as I said, I'm happy to be corrected if I'm way off track.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-77423714148635005972014-03-19T11:27:18.979+13:002014-03-19T11:27:18.979+13:00"Sorry Michael, I can’t agree with you here. ..."Sorry Michael, I can’t agree with you here. The Trinity is a core doctrine that was developed by the Church over centuries and is inferred from many passages of Scripture."<br /><br />Hi Kurt,<br /><br />Firstly, this is phrased as a refutation, but doesn't seem to really respond to what I wrote, which was this:<br /><br />“Predestination is just one part of God's sovereign will, which we cannot comprehend. We only know it exists because it is mentioned in a couple of places in Scripture. Its like the doctrine of the Trinity – we know it is true because it can be found in Scripture, but our limited human understanding cannot truly grasp how God is one and yet three at the same time.”<br /><br />Secondly, the Trinity wasn't "developed by the Church over the centuries" in the sense you appear to mean. It derives from Scripture alone, as does all our doctrine. It is true that heretics came into the church and attempted to twist what scripture teaches, and as a result, formulations or summaries of scriptural truth were produced to set out why the church opposed them. But those formulations didn't change the nature of what had already been taught by the apostles, rather they brought the church back to it. <br /><br />Thirdly, predestination derives from scripture, the same as the Trinity. I am intrigued by your assertion that there are more passages of scripture supporting the Trinity – I doubt that, actually, but I am not sure what the point is of counting up passages – does one use an abacus? And, unless you are very familiar with the scripture passages that support each, on what basis do you make such a judgment?<br /><br />Fourthly, the Trinity is no more "core" doctrine than anything else. It is about the very nature of God, so in that sense it is fundamental. But then so is the doctrine of God's sovereign will (which includes but is not limited to predestination). <br /><br />"(But, of course, there was Calvin…)"<br /><br />I do get the impression from your posts that you have never read Calvin on the subject (apologies if that is not correct), so again, on what basis do you make this judgment?<br /><br />"Yes, carl, we American Anglicans (Episcopalians) and you American Calvinists (Puritans) understand things perfectly between us; …"<br /><br />Errr, actually, Kurt, this is not your call to make. You aren't the only American Anglicans. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-65533531392297261102014-03-19T02:57:17.431+13:002014-03-19T02:57:17.431+13:00"However, one can hardly perceive the God and..."However, one can hardly perceive the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ actually being, of God's own volition, capable of both predestination, and at the same time offering Free Will to God's children."<br /><br />Why not?<br /><br />He is capable of being one and three at the same time; why can't he do these things?<br /><br />I don't see why God should be viewed through your rather restricted lens, Fr Ron!MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72432987852148004872014-03-18T15:28:39.914+13:002014-03-18T15:28:39.914+13:00FRS
My reaction is that you don't seem to kno...FRS<br /><br />My reaction is that you don't seem to know what Total Depravity means. I said exactly what I intended. Understand that I used to argue alot about Calvinism. I have heard most of the arguments against it. At root I found that they all traced back to a demand for human contingency in salvation. <br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-52291833290590949192014-03-18T12:58:23.049+13:002014-03-18T12:58:23.049+13:00On re-reading this thread, My eye just caught this...On re-reading this thread, My eye just caught this little gem:<br /><br />"n my experience, all objections to Calvinism are objections to Total Depravity" - carl jacobs March 13 -<br /><br />My response is to question carl's harshness towards the Calvinists: I'm not sure they are 'totally depraved'. I wonder if that's what the commenter really wanted to say?. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-36524846633426592542014-03-17T20:17:25.375+13:002014-03-17T20:17:25.375+13:00Hi Mark
Important words from Ephesians are:
ekle...Hi Mark<br /><br />Important words from Ephesians are:<br /><br />eklegomai (E 1:4) I pick out for myself, I choose<br /><br />proorizo (E1:5,11) I foreordain (lit: I bind/limit beforehand)<br /><br />kleroo (E1:11) I choose by lot, I appoint by lot [related to kleros =a lot, a portion assigned; but in the middle form I assign in myself, choose; and in passive form (E1:11), I am assigned, I am chosen as God's portion.<br /><br />My own view is that 'predestined' captures the meaning of proorizo: God wills from beforehand that something should happen, that is destiny is worked out before its actuality takes place.<br /><br />What theologians are grappling with is whether this means for the individual believer there is no actual choice on our part when God has chosen us. What I think we can understand is that God wills from before its existence a people who will be the people of God.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-84822080791373815712014-03-17T19:46:29.888+13:002014-03-17T19:46:29.888+13:00I've just got it on good authroity - from Bish...I've just got it on good authroity - from Bishop Pierre Whalon, of the Episcopal Diocese of Europe - that Austin Farrer (distinguished English theologian)had this to say about our theology vis a vis the scriptures:<br /><br />"....we don’t read Scripture to do theology, we do theology in order to read Scripture. And believe."<br /><br />Makes yer think, dunnit?<br /><br />Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-73160870667086057492014-03-17T16:38:24.142+13:002014-03-17T16:38:24.142+13:00I agree in part with Father Ron Smith that it is t...I agree in part with Father Ron Smith that it is the God of Scripture that we love and serve not the Scripture itself. But we only know who God is through Scripture - you can't have one without the other.<br /><br />I've never studied Calvinism and, to be honest, I don't plan to either. Whether it's Calvinism, Armenianism or any other "ism" I have a genuine question about predestination which someone who knows more than me might be able to help me with:<br />What is the actual meaning in the original language/text of the word translated "predestined"? Does it mean pre-determined? Does it mean pre-intended? Is there a better definition or description?Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19438958118513019432014-03-15T22:45:33.955+13:002014-03-15T22:45:33.955+13:00I think, Peter, perhaps a B- considering the prob...I think, Peter, perhaps a B- considering the probability that, as Jesus was fully God as well as fully human, things just might have been a little different for Him.<br /><br />We simply cannot know, can we? O'm quite happy not knowing everything about God's dealings with us - except that Jesus, by His words and actions, assures of us God's mercy and forgiveness is we ask. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-92087109075573260132014-03-15T19:16:41.073+13:002014-03-15T19:16:41.073+13:00Do I get a C- or a C, Ron?
:)Do I get a C- or a C, Ron?<br />:)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-59743957902850218182014-03-15T17:50:22.381+13:002014-03-15T17:50:22.381+13:00That's not a bad answer, Peter - considering t...That's not a bad answer, Peter - considering the fact that there are more things about God and the will of God that we, as mere mortals, could hardly comprehend.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-36141187487451297972014-03-15T10:17:52.484+13:002014-03-15T10:17:52.484+13:00Hi Jean
Your question gets to the heart of the mat...Hi Jean<br />Your question gets to the heart of the matter (whether we are talking theologically about predestination/freewill or philosophically about determinism/freewill).<br /><br />Further the crucial theological linkage between predestination and the gospel (in my view) is that our predestination is linked to the predestination of Jesus Christ as our Saviour.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-35561852294022636042014-03-15T07:47:56.132+13:002014-03-15T07:47:56.132+13:00Okay so a question:
Jesus was since the beginning...Okay so a question:<br /><br />Jesus was since the beginning of time the Son of God, and he was predestined to die on the cross for our salvation. Yet he also had free will but chose God's, "yet not my will but yours be done".<br /><br />Now here predestination and free will are present simultaneously, how does this work? Are they or are they not mutually exclusive?Jeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-64292476499602643002014-03-15T02:49:27.038+13:002014-03-15T02:49:27.038+13:00“However, one can hardly perceive the God and Fath...“However, one can hardly perceive the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ actually being, of God's own volition, capable of both predestination, and at the same time offering Free Will to God's children. <br /><br />“If God’s mind is already made up about who will, and who will not be saved; what's the point of hypothetical Free Will? Even Jesus had His options!”—Fr. Ron<br /><br />Well said, Father Ron! My feelings exactly! The core Calvinist doctrines make no sense to me, either.<br /><br />“In particular, many who call themselves Calvinists today have never read any Calvin, and get very uncomfortable when they read what he actually wrote!”—Michael A<br /><br />Well said and quite true, Michael. I’m always pleasantly surprised how many of the American Presbyterians I talk to don’t believe in the core doctrines of Calvinism! That’s even true of folks I’ve spoken to from Princeton Theological, where Jonathan (“Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”) Edwards taught.<br /><br />“Predestination is just one part of God's sovereign will, which we cannot comprehend. We only know it exists because it is mentioned in a couple of places in Scripture. Its like the doctrine of the Trinity – we know it is true because it can be found in Scripture, but our limited human understanding cannot truly grasp how God is one and yet three at the same time.”—MichaelA<br /><br />Sorry Michael, I can’t agree with you here. The Trinity is a core doctrine that was developed by the Church over centuries and is inferred from many passages of Scripture. <br /> <br />This is not the case with predestination. It is true that it is “mentioned in a couple of places in Scripture.” There are plenty of things that are mentioned in the Bible a couple of times, but few people (other than Baptist and Pentecostal snake handlers, for example) try to make a grand theological system of them. (But, of course, there was Calvin…)<br /><br />“Since the demographic trends in TEC have taken on the flight characteristics of a falling brick, it soon won't matter who is fit to be a priest in TEC. <br /><br />“But I don't take it personally. I can't complain about you expunging the likes of me when I would just as surely expunge the likes of you. <br /><br />“It's a good thing to have no illusions.”--carl<br /><br />Yes, carl, we American Anglicans (Episcopalians) and you American Calvinists (Puritans) understand things perfectly between us; we always have throughout the centuries. I just hope and pray that you live long enough to be totally disconcerted when “the falling brick” levitates again—as it has done before during the past 435 years of American Anglican history. The more things change, the more they stay the same…<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NY<br /><br /><br />Kurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-24139650343242653872014-03-14T22:03:08.740+13:002014-03-14T22:03:08.740+13:00I tell you straight away, Peter, that, despite the...I tell you straight away, Peter, that, despite the blandishments I find from some of your commenters so far; no 'ISM' captures either my imagination or my loyalty. I do not worship the words in the Book, which speaks of Jesus, but the divine Ultimate to which they point - the Word-made-flesh in Jesus. <br /><br />Christ is my corner-stone, on Him alone I build. I can say no other.<br /><br />This does not mean that I do not set great store by the Scriptures. I read, mark, learn and inwardly digest them on a daily basis - and every time within the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.<br /><br />Had the Word not been made flesh and dwelt among us, I might never have found Faith in God. <br /><br />Without the infilling of the Holy Spirit in my Baptism, and in my partaking of the life of Christ in Holy Communion, I would not have had access to the fullness of the glory of God in my life. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-63396795098493731612014-03-14T16:44:33.818+13:002014-03-14T16:44:33.818+13:00Well, Tim, one solution being propounded here is (...Well, Tim, one solution being propounded here is (so to speak): Choose you this day which -ism you will serve :)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.com