tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post9132915115428847432..comments2024-03-29T22:00:02.999+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Unity and truth do not need to be at the expense of each otherPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-38638710516284113662010-01-05T08:51:31.097+13:002010-01-05T08:51:31.097+13:00That's very interesting, Kurt!
I add just one...That's very interesting, Kurt!<br /><br />I add just one small observation: whether Sydney has been contributing funds to GAFCON Primates meetings and the like, or not, it is intriguing how little one hears about what GAFCON is thinking ... my sense is that the Global South, over time, will be a stronger bloc than GAFCON, whether as part of the AC, the former AC, or a new AC.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-22184225183386482242010-01-05T08:41:38.943+13:002010-01-05T08:41:38.943+13:00“I wonder if it would be possible to belong to bot...“I wonder if it would be possible to belong to both [communions]?” --Fr. Carrell<br /><br />If a situation of dual communions (which might be viewed more as two public factions of the same religious current) were to emerge, I don’t see why a province could not belong to both. (Just as the CofE currently belongs to both the Anglican Communion and the Porvoo Communion). <br /><br />Of course, all religious organizations have been affected by the Great Recession. TEC, which recently reduced our 2010-12 budget by $23 million, has also said that despite the pinch, we would continue our social mission. Our elected leadership decided to cut 30 staff positions at our headquarters here in New York, but folks restored funding for programs in the developing world. We have said that the budget was focused on giving to others first and then to ourselves last. Yet both the national Church, and individual dioceses (such as New York) are in better shape than some other religious organizations. We could definitely devote monies to promote a new international fellowship of Churches while integrating our programs in the developing world into this structure.<br /><br />The “old” AC, it is true, would probably not have the level of financing to which it is accustomed. Certainly, they cannot look to Sydney. These folks were hit even harder financially than TEC. Their $265 million assets are now worth $105 million. And, frankly, does this Geneva-facing, congregationalist end of the Anglican spectrum need a Communion in the way that others do? I think they will pull back and concentrate on their own domestic agenda. A couple of years ago they were able to allocate $30 million or so to educate new clergy and to do outreach. Now, however, the returns from investments have plummeted so steeply that, as I understand it, the funds available have been slashed to $5.6 million.<br /><br />I have heard some rumors circulating among NYC-area clergy from my parish priest. One of these is that Archbishop Williams has been/will shortly be “dis-invited” from attending the 2010 Trinity Institute gathering. Another rumor has it that Trinity Church, one of the wealthiest Episcopal Churches in the country, has informed/will shortly inform the AC that it is no longer funding its general activities such as Lambeth. True or not that such rumors are circulating among clergy here tells you quite a bit about the bitterness that has grown up here over the past dozen years.<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn USAKurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10032216707367304535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-38630491883654684522010-01-05T07:48:38.186+13:002010-01-05T07:48:38.186+13:00Hi Kurt
I would like to put the situation in terms...Hi Kurt<br />I would like to put the situation in terms which do not involve fighting! I accept that the current situation involves Anglicans out of step with one another. The Covenant (on my arguments) represents the possibility of the Communion's churches re-finding themselves in step with each other (with a "price" to pay by TEC which, as you note, is unacceptable). At least two alternatives are also in the picture.<br /><br />One is that the Communion breaks up into many fragments - a TEC fragment, a GAFCON fragment which is different to a Global South fragment, and so on.<br /><br />Another is that there is a fairly simple division of the Communion into two communions. As you note, TEC has the finance to develop one of those communions; the remnant Anglican Communion may not have the finance to develop the other! <br /><br />I would disagree with you on three matters concerning this possibility: (i) it could be accomplished without a fight - it may be emerging even as we converse!! (ii) it need not require TEC to be 'expelled' from the current Communion: TEC could choose to embrace a new communion structure. (iii) it need not mean that the non-TEC communion is dominated by bigots and misogynists, though it would mean domination by people who see things differently, perhaps by people who are thinking more hesitantly about things TEC thinks about confidently.<br /><br />Incidentally, while you are correct that many Anglicans in NZ would support TEC's approach to GLBT issues, I personally am far from clear what our church, ACANZP, would do in the scenario in which a TEC-led communion and an ABC-led communion emerged. I wonder if it would be possible to belong to both?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74684413828519372312010-01-05T07:32:27.320+13:002010-01-05T07:32:27.320+13:00The short answer to your question is “No.” The AC ...The short answer to your question is “No.” The AC has been (at least up to now) a “fellowship” and not a Church. No one in Abuja (or Nelson, for that matter) has any business telling us Episcopalians whom we can and cannot ordain. This is unacceptable.<br /><br />I can also assure you that if TEC and ACC are “expelled” from the AC for following their own canons “the rest of the AC” will not be permitted to go rolling along with business as usual. There are plenty of folks around the globe (including folks in New Zealand) who agree with us. If you want one h**l of a fight/split, you will get one! And the “trouble” will not be confined to the USA and Canada! We can easily use the financing once offered to the AC to pursue our own agenda worldwide with those Churches with whom we have more in common (e.g., The Scottish Episcopalians, Church of Sweden, Old Catholics, etc). If you want to be part of an AC that is dominated by bigots and misogynists, that’s your decision. As for me, I won’t contribute one dime to such a “communion.”<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn USAKurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10032216707367304535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-76609712003611183832010-01-05T06:18:54.153+13:002010-01-05T06:18:54.153+13:00Hi Kurt
Does TEC wish to be a member of a united A...Hi Kurt<br />Does TEC wish to be a member of a united Anglican Communion on terms set by the Communion as a whole?<br /><br />I do not find an affirmative answer emerging anywhere on the internet, least of all in Fr Stockton's essay which is based on the non-sense that the creeds are sufficient to define the Anglican Communion. They are not, of course, because the Anglican Communion believes in things which the creeds say nothing about, such as our orders of ministry ... that sets us apart from Presbyterians, Baptists, and Methodists ... and from Roman Catholics who believe in the same set of orders but think ours null and void. <br /><br />There is other egregious non-sense in Stockton's essay re bad seed and so forth. The arguments for the Covenant go well beyond envy, power politics and the like.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-50171694434565260522010-01-05T05:28:12.711+13:002010-01-05T05:28:12.711+13:00PS
Father Jim Stockton has written an essay which...PS<br /><br />Father Jim Stockton has written an essay which captures, I think, the feelings of most of us American Episcopalians regarding the proposed Covenant. It can be accessed at Lionel Deimel’s blog:<br /><br />http://blog.deimel.org/2010/01/bad-fruit-from-bad-seed.htm<br /><br />The essay emphasizes why the Covenant probably will not be ratified by the American Church.--khKurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10032216707367304535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-82537642819064946062010-01-05T04:25:06.000+13:002010-01-05T04:25:06.000+13:00Archbishop Williams desperately needs The Episcopa...Archbishop Williams desperately needs The Episcopal Church (and the Anglican Church of Canada) to support the Covenant in order for it to be accepted by broader layers within the Anglican Communion. While I don’t have a crystal ball, I don’t think that support from most American Episcopalians will be forthcoming. If folks in my (pretty average/typical) parish are any barometer, Episcopalians are not eager to do Williams any favors; American perceptions of the man have gone from initial keenness to perplexity through irritation to disgust. Even moderate conservatives here do not trust the man, and most lack enthusiasm for the Covenant.<br /><br />If TEC and the ACC were to actively oppose the Covenant, I think that they would draw upon the serious misgivings that many in other provinces have with this document and its potential to interfere with provincial governance and decision making. Within the UK there are many who oppose the Covenant in the Scottish, Welch, and even Irish Churches, as well as many liberals and moderates within the CofE itself. Many serious Church leaders have even raised questions regarding the ability of the CofE to sign on to such a document. One can expect challenges within both the Church and Parliamentary systems. The Brazilians, Japanese, South Africans and most of the Latin Americans outside of the Southern Cone are dubious as well. And many on the fence can be persuaded to oppose the Covenant of TEC and other provinces act with vigor.<br /><br />Meanwhile, the ACNA appears to be fracturing into at least four different factions, reflecting 450 years of Anglican controversy. Now that they do not have a “common enemy” in TEC and ACC, there are serious disagreements developing regarding “An Anglican Prayer Book” of 2008 (the theology it reflects is too High Church Catholic for many) ; disagreements regarding “the correct” interpretation of the Articles of Religion; disagreements concerning women in the Holy Ministry (that female bishops will be banned outright upsets some; but will female priests be demoted to deacons, or will all ACNA women in Holy Orders laicized? Any decision made may very well provoke some to split); there are serious disagreements around ceremonial (“Ritualism”). ACNA appears well on its way to fracturing in the same manner that the “Continuing Anglican” sects have done before them.<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn USAKurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10032216707367304535noreply@blogger.com