tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post1089168626411223149..comments2024-03-29T13:30:56.758+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Paradox in Kiwi Anglican Objections to CovenantPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89480649216430776542010-11-24T06:54:39.865+13:002010-11-24T06:54:39.865+13:00Hi Bosco,
I think there is more unity in our provi...Hi Bosco,<br />I think there is more unity in our province than you do! There are signs of chaos, and where there is real chaos, there is a lack of candour (agreed). But there are many signs of unity, and there is much which is not chaotic. Even yesterday I noticed a Facebook post that says we have a new Three Tikanga Youth Commissioner: an outcome which represents diverse people working together towards a common goal.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-69599801036088276652010-11-23T22:03:33.572+13:002010-11-23T22:03:33.572+13:00Particularly for your non-Kiwi readers, Peter: I d...Particularly for your non-Kiwi readers, Peter: I do not think our diverse-with-potential-for-chaos is because of our three tikanga situation. We are not blessing chaos in NZ – I’m suggesting there are few who are standing up and honestly acknowledging it – the first work to do locally is to be honest about the chaos. When some real unity returns to our province, only then IMO, can we begin to say to the rest of the Communion, something like what we are doing might be a model. Until then I see no justification for your suggestion that Kiwi objections to the Covenant are somewhat paradoxical.liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-90632205371413180232010-11-23T19:48:13.585+13:002010-11-23T19:48:13.585+13:00Hi Bosco,
One alternative to seeking unity among A...Hi Bosco,<br />One alternative to seeking unity among Anglicans is to bless chaos. In an attempt to avoid blessing chaos I am suggesting:<br />(a) it is worth building unity among Anglicans, even though it looks impossible;<br />(b) the Covenant is a means to build unity, not least because it confronts each member church with the question whether it will commit to building unity;<br />(c) Kiwi objections to the Covenant are somewhat paradoxical because in our own diverse-with-potential-for-chaos three tikanga situation, we have a form of covenant governing and guiding our relationships;<br />(d) yes, much diversity remains in ACANZP, some of it reasonable (i.e. within the provisions of our canons), and some of it (arguably) uncanonical;<br />(e) our life would be much much worse without our revised constitution;<br />(f) even as we work on unity in the Communion we have much work to do locally;<br />(g) by God's grace both Communion and ACANZP will grow in unity through attention to our commitments to covenanted life together.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70405667641175523192010-11-23T19:24:00.328+13:002010-11-23T19:24:00.328+13:00OK, and again in a rush:
so just to clarify: curr...OK, and again in a rush: <br />so just to clarify: currently in many and sundry places in the Anglican Communion there is, as I understand your perspective to be, a departure from agreed consensus. So you are recommending we all sign up to an Anglican “Covenant” and that will make us more like the Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia (NB I agree we’ve got a funny name – but a <i>big</i> stress was made of the in and the comma, Peter ;-) ) where there is, as you write “in many and sundry places” a departure from agreed consensus.<br />Have I understood it right this time?liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-50974711174079593012010-11-23T05:31:57.308+13:002010-11-23T05:31:57.308+13:00Hi Andrew,
No, the essential development was due t...Hi Andrew,<br />No, the essential development was due to the new recognition of the foundationalism of the Treaty of Waitangi for NZ society. That led to understanding that two churches, Maori and Pakeha should exist side-by-side through Aotearoa NZ, united under one General Synod. A historical matter (the Diocese of Polynesia is part of our church), a judgement (Polynesia should be a third tikanga, not subsumed under Pakeha), and another matter of past and present (immigration from Fiji and Tonga to NZ) has led to a third overlapping jurisdiction (in reality, mainly confined to Auckland city).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-59178275347825957232010-11-22T21:39:58.261+13:002010-11-22T21:39:58.261+13:00Hi Peter,
I'm interested in how the ACANZP str...Hi Peter,<br />I'm interested in how the ACANZP structure developed, rather than a model similar to the Anglican Church of Australia. We appoint a bishop to oversee ministry to Aboriginal people, and a separate bishop for Torres Strait Islanders. They are assistant bishops in the diocese of North Queensland, but have freedom to operate elsewhere. We also have a bishop for the Defence Forces who is a non-diocesan bishop. Is it because Polynesians and Maori are more dispersed within New Zealand that this overlapping model developed?<br />You'll be pleased to know that in a recent review of Indigenous ministry, the Australian church adopted the NZ goal of self- determination for indigenous Anglicans, even though it felt the parallel jurisdiction model wasn't appropriate here.Andrew Reidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-6943090918770119832010-11-22T18:38:47.534+13:002010-11-22T18:38:47.534+13:00Nothing is straightforward in our church, David :)...Nothing is straightforward in our church, David :)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61847825084243854002010-11-22T18:35:52.279+13:002010-11-22T18:35:52.279+13:00Hi Bosco,
I hope I never underestimate the challen...Hi Bosco,<br />I hope I never underestimate the challenge of building an ordered global Communion, and the experiences we have in these islands are salutary in recognising the difficulties to be faced. But I would rather face the difficulties than contribute to the disintegration!<br /><br />The notion of discipline in our church in relation to our life together is partially found in our canon on discipline (Title D) but also, I suggest, found in the unwritten rules of our life together, namely that dereliction of relationship to each other would have consequences. I do not imagine, for instance, that if one tikanga continued to boycott our General Synods that we would ignore that state of affairs. We might find we would need to come up with an S4 type procedure :)<br /><br />As for liturgy: there is some truth in what you say, namely, that in many and sundry places what counts for worship may not be very accountable as an authorised form of worship. Nevertheless you know, but do not name here, that our church does liturgical work together through its common life liturgical commission, and through that commission our three tikanga do bring proposals for consideration by General Synod. Sometimes the proposals are not very good, but that is another matter!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-92189926593880939392010-11-22T18:33:42.580+13:002010-11-22T18:33:42.580+13:00I think your are off course with number three Pete...I think your are off course with number three Peter. The closest equivalent to the Lambeth Conference would be if a province's House of Bishops (or bench or college, by any other name) has meetings apart from meeting as a house in the province's general synod. Some do, some more often than others. I think that it is twice yearly in TEC.<br /><br />But the SC of the AC, if it is "synod in session between sessions" of anything, it would be the ACC, certainly not the Lambeth Conference.<br /><br />Lambeth Conference is a tea party. It has no authority. It cannot even be the mind of the communion. Too many Anglicans of all other orders of ministry are not represented in its emissions. And as we witnessed in our lifetime in 1998, is easily kidnapped in its deliberations.<br /><br />In number 4 in ACANZP, what happens if a gay/lesbian delegate votes along with the straight majority? ;)Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43088309400741382882010-11-22T17:42:50.402+13:002010-11-22T17:42:50.402+13:00I am too busy, Peter, to look up the Constitution,...I am too busy, Peter, to look up the Constitution, so please can you help your readers by pointing to the equivalents to “Clause 4” of the “Covenant” in what you are calling our covenant-like Constitution. For your non-kiwi readers, the “bound together to work interdependently on matters of common doctrine, liturgy, and order” is rather romantic. Even in a church in which it is difficult to find any regulations concerning liturgy, I have been, even this week, receiving information, publicly and privately, of a determined lack of binding together liturgically – even on the bare minimum that we are bound by. Even if there are Clause 4 type canons in theory – they are certainly not implemented in practice. So, if we are to be the paradigm of your post-covenanted “Anglicanism”, I do not think it will turn out at all as ordered as you think/hope.liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-45057061609890266942010-11-22T07:57:58.188+13:002010-11-22T07:57:58.188+13:00I will add a postscript to the post re possible pa...I will add a postscript to the post re possible parallels.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-44996987731473077472010-11-22T07:52:19.674+13:002010-11-22T07:52:19.674+13:00I can see how there are parallels Peter. But I wou...I can see how there are parallels Peter. But I would think that the organization of your province also means that there are also some big differences. Since some things of ACANZP remains a mystery to those of us from the wider world, where are the differences not even close? Primates Meeting? Representative ACC membership based on provincial member population? The Standing Committee of the AC? Etc.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.com