tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post1679362477660318873..comments2024-03-30T00:33:32.285+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: On fire?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-4527140531127875162017-02-24T11:28:22.312+13:002017-02-24T11:28:22.312+13:00Thank you, Peter and Nick, for your thoughtful rep...Thank you, Peter and Nick, for your thoughtful replies to my *modest proposal*.<br /><br />The Orthodox arguably have the most robust sacramentology of marriage as well as the rite that best enacts what is believed. And yet one of the larger Orthodox jurisdictions in the US regards a civil marriage between Orthodox as sacramental from the time they first receive communion together, even if that communion was just ordinary participation in a Sunday eucharist. So if a couple are married on Saturday afternoon by a mayor, their sacramental wedding is simply their approach to the chalice on Sunday morning. This is hardly a low sacramentology; it is a high mysteriology of marriage. Having that, some such conclusion seems unavoidable.<br /><br />Bowman Walton<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-463801318115198432017-02-23T23:44:19.863+13:002017-02-23T23:44:19.863+13:00Hi Peter; the Council of Trent was firm that marri...Hi Peter; the Council of Trent was firm that marriage is a sacrament, though it was stating existing doctrine. Rome will recognise even a civil marriage as long as it's between non-Catholics, so Boman's outside weddings might be fine for non-Cs. Catholics need the bishop's permission if they want a valid marriage other than the same faith version. As for Anglo-Catholics on sacraments, they might get a shock if they read your 39As.<br /><br />NickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-58475205292081873722017-02-22T22:57:49.334+13:002017-02-22T22:57:49.334+13:00Hi Bowman
I am much taken by your proposal and thi...Hi Bowman<br />I am much taken by your proposal and think it could be readily applied in Western societies.<br />I would be interested, however, in feedback from Catholic and Anglo-Catholic readers here. Within those traditions marriage has taken on the status of a sacrament, so I imagine it is a little harder to make the move you prescribe.<br />Mind you, on that Catholic understanding, I was most intrigued at a lecture in Cambridge in 2015 to hear an eminent Catholic theologian remind his mostly Catholic audience that marriage has only been a sacrament for around 1000 years and not since Gospel times!<br />Last on, first off????Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-66063155378944957052017-02-22T03:58:10.308+13:002017-02-22T03:58:10.308+13:00Cont'd
Cockaigne just might be tired enough o...Cont'd<br /><br />Cockaigne just might be tired enough of listening to cranky revisionists and gafconians to adopt the practise of Jesus and the apostles. If even the controversy-loving Church of Cockaigne will consider this, why would not peaceloving ACANZP just adopt it? Of course, the local bishops here in Parador will never explicitly adopt a deviation from the 1662 Prayerbook, and some in ACANZP may feel likewise. But since church weddings are out of fashion even here, the question is whether a church chooses to resist the trend or not. If church weddings should fade away into desuetude with fish Fridays, commination services, etc none here will seriously object to their passing. <br /><br />So on a calm calculation of the consequences-- both the costs and the benefits-- is not the practise followed at Cana in Galilee the most peaceful Way Forward for all? Mercy and truth are met together : righteousness and peace have kissed each other.<br /><br />Bowman WaltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-28318488185990176942017-02-22T03:56:54.077+13:002017-02-22T03:56:54.077+13:00Cont'd
Now on one hand, please note that the ...Cont'd<br /><br />Now on one hand, please note that the New Testament does not have a wedding rite at all. The one wedding portrayed in scripture is a family ceremony. And so it remained in the West for more than a thousand years thereafter until the papacy interfered with the natural order. <br /><br />On the other hand, the goddess Relationships does not like to be worshiped in the house of YHWH, the jealous god. She will receive her devotees in almost any venue but a church. Have we not all attended weddings in public parks, stadiums, ballet studios, art museums, country clubs, etc and of course private homes? This is the present and the future of weddings in the West-- they celebrate the leisure interests of the couple actually getting married. <br /><br />Given that there actually have been church weddings, each side has a meaning that it been trying to impose on this fact from outside of it. Usually, a bride and a groom at a wedding are thinking about each other, but some of us want to make them think instead about the marriage of heaven and earth, and others of us want to make them think self-improving thoughts rather influenced by feminism, gay rights, etc. To be a church wedding, a rite must carry an advert for one faction or the other, and the bickering over the adverts has lead to the polarised positions mentioned above. <br /><br />Yet-- this is interesting-- neither pole can consistently support the performance of church weddings in the first place. Even proponents for SSB only want it for homosexuals because heterosexuals already have it. If straight couples were tying their knots elsewhere, then queer couples would never have invented our too-lawyerly church weddings on their own. They would have developed some fresh ceremonial with so much more creative flair that straight couples would have wanted it too.<br /><br />And-- more interesting-- each side would be most consistent with its own principles in working for abolition. Those eager to restore the purity of the apostolic past should be eager to cleanse churches of this unscriptural vestige of medieval popery. Why should people usually disinclined to ceremony make an exception for this one? And as they reflect on this, evangelicals, who are always eager to bring the gospel into the heart of family life, may see more possibilities in the ancient practise than in the received one. Should any mother of a bride insist on renting the church building for her (technically, the bride's) nuptials, well, it's only a building... And money is money, of course.<br /><br />Meanwhile, those who see injustice in giving weddings to some but not to all would surely be satisfied if they were given to nobody. How could they not be? Even those who detest the adverts in the traditional weddings should find it better to just put a stop them than to keep trying and failing to win conservative and even African acceptance for progressive adverts. And those ceremonialists who are never happy in a liturgy that they have not written (or revived from medieval Salisbury etc) themselves will attain a bliss never before imagined when they can freely write (or compile) whole weddings and stage them under the firmament itself. Again, when some creative liturgist insists on renting a church building for nuptials others might regard as culturally Marxist abominations, well, it's only a building... And money is still money.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33985496006447448282017-02-22T03:55:04.055+13:002017-02-22T03:55:04.055+13:00A Modest Proposal
(with gratitude to Jonathan Swif...A Modest Proposal<br />(with gratitude to Jonathan Swift)<br /><br />One side can only approve church weddings that conform to the faith and practice of the early church as reflected in scripture. These cannot include homosexuals.<br /><br />The other side can only approve church weddings that conform to the modern cult of Relationships as reflected in contemporary social practise. These cannot exclude homosexuals.<br /><br />Dear friends, I rejoice to announce that peace has broken out in the Anglican Communion. For all practical purposes these differing positions point to the same result. Indeed, all but those too-happy warriors whom nobody calls sons of God (St Matthew v 9) will see that the extremes have met on the far side of the circle.<br /><br />Wintering off the grid in sunny Parador after a curious election season, I should never have thought to post a comment on That tedious Topic. It is fascinating enough to read the daily news alongside a certain fat dossier that fell into my hands from a source with a taste for superb vodka. But Peter's earnest desire to keep ACANZP together prompts me to put all that aside to relieve his godly suffering. Like a train wreck, the news can be watched but cannot be helped. This may be better.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-57406081609630200842017-02-21T00:13:13.081+13:002017-02-21T00:13:13.081+13:00Just sayin Ron: like you, we're both 'sinn...Just sayin Ron: like you, we're both 'sinners' matey! (See above ...)Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-62759624358581061722017-02-20T22:10:24.444+13:002017-02-20T22:10:24.444+13:00"The way forward needs to be about love,joy a...<br />"The way forward needs to be about love,joy and the celebration of our humanity;of our creation in the image of God,of our belonging to Christ --all of us,without exception,without exclusion". ++ Welby.<br /><br />"On what basis does he identify this as the way 'forward'? Surely he knows the rich patristic literature from the Church Fathers,where so much consideration is given to the imaging of God in humanity,is matched by the awareness and lamenting over the sin which spoils both likeness and image.<br />what we celebrate as Christians,is the salvation of our humanity;achieved by repentance of sin meeting the sacrifice of the Son of God on the cross". Rev <br />Dr.Gavin Asherden.<br /><br />Welby appears to jump from Genesis chapter 2,to the 21st cent.;missing out what happened in the Garden of Eden.He needs to read Article 9.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19436360231961376962017-02-20T19:46:36.614+13:002017-02-20T19:46:36.614+13:00'For I'm not without spot or wrinkles yet&...<br />'For I'm not without spot or wrinkles yet'. Steady, Bryden. Too much information!Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-38243071424727605082017-02-20T14:03:26.846+13:002017-02-20T14:03:26.846+13:00Well; John 4 might assist us if we were alert to t...Well; John 4 might assist us if we were alert to the fuller depth of the story and the Jacob/Rachel//Jesus/woman motifs, transcended in typical Johannine style to the point of view global evangelism and true worship through Jesus the locus of divine Presence. <br />Or perhaps we'd gain even deeper purchase on That Topic shld we read Jn 10 and the Dedication against the Maccabean Revolt - "no syncretistic rubbish here please!" For Jesus is the true Davidic Shepherd over and against those inadequate and false ones: Ezekiel 34 etc. oops!<br />From all of which I'd only conclude we've to be most careful about selective quotations, and better learn to read holistically and canonically. From Gen 1&2 to Rev 21-22 would surely suggest the icon of male-female and notably its marital oneness seeks its due Res in the triune God's spousal residing among His People. And I sure hope that fulfillment is derived from the Bridegroom's clear distinction from His Bride - for I'm just not without spot or wrinkles; yet! Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-56221573447741533492017-02-20T09:13:48.253+13:002017-02-20T09:13:48.253+13:00Dear Peter, The Lord is full of mercy and compassi...Dear Peter, The Lord is full of mercy and compassion. Thank you for your watch over your blog. May God give you the wisdom you will require.Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-28130007852061087002017-02-20T06:11:24.863+13:002017-02-20T06:11:24.863+13:00Hi Ron
Last night I published two comments from yo...Hi Ron<br />Last night I published two comments from you, including the one I singled out as verging on ad hominem.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75441875759978109812017-02-19T22:53:04.738+13:002017-02-19T22:53:04.738+13:00So, Peter You changed your mind and did not publis...So, Peter You changed your mind and did not publish my comment.Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-46759332129643123132017-02-19T22:06:14.153+13:002017-02-19T22:06:14.153+13:00Excellent example, Andrei!
The second nearest Orth...Excellent example, Andrei!<br />The second nearest Orthodox church in Chch I know of used to be an Anglican church. (The nearest to me, a Coptic Orthodox church used to be a rugby club building, but previously they were in an ex-Methodist church).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72490443739080779062017-02-19T21:56:28.125+13:002017-02-19T21:56:28.125+13:00"The problem is churches who think they have ...<i>"The problem is churches who think they have cracked that ... and then find the cloud and the fire have moved on!"</i><br /><br />Case in point: <a href="http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-orange-county-catholics-adv-snap-story.html" rel="nofollow">Crystal Cathedral enters a new era as it transforms into Christ Cathedral</a><br /><br />Only in California - no? Andreinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-16179181971480440632017-02-19T21:40:14.426+13:002017-02-19T21:40:14.426+13:00Hi Ron at 9.17 pm
I am publishing your comment, ju...Hi Ron at 9.17 pm<br />I am publishing your comment, just, even though it verges on ad hominem.<br />Reason for publication: fair to discuss the issue of what is sin and what is not.<br />Reason for judging it to be verging on ad hominem: you make charges about who is enlightened etc. Don't do that. We all have access to the one reliable source of enlightenment, the Scripture. What we do not have access to as individuals is the mind of Christ, save that that be confirmed by the whole church. We do not have confirmation from the whole church (neither Anglican, nor Western Christianity nor Western and Eastern Christianity) that sex between two people of the same gender is not a sin.<br />Nick above made a pertinent point: on something we do not think is a sin, we need to persuade God of that fact.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70281790209484148632017-02-19T21:32:07.122+13:002017-02-19T21:32:07.122+13:00Peter,when my wife"s Tupuna was offered a sea...<br />Peter,when my wife"s Tupuna was offered a seat, which would have got him elected to Parliament; he wrote a letter saying : "Thank you for the kind offer, but unlike you my dear cousin,I can not undo the top button of my shirt". He went on to serve both God and his people in many other ways.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10959549679897538312017-02-19T21:31:20.558+13:002017-02-19T21:31:20.558+13:00Hi Glen
I apologise for appearing to mock your des...Hi Glen<br />I apologise for appearing to mock your desire for the Anglican Communion to re-find its first love. I have a personal objection to "Pearly Gates" language (and jokes about conversations with St Peter at these imputed gates) as it devalues the significance of salvation and of the day of judgement. But I have no objection to your faithful work in calling Anglicans to the truth of the gospel which teaches that the way is narrow. Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-51290117966612290572017-02-19T21:27:39.183+13:002017-02-19T21:27:39.183+13:00If "the doctrine of salvation is the core ten...If "the doctrine of salvation is the core tenant (sic) of the first 18 'Articles'" then who is the landlord?Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87157652247642360332017-02-19T21:17:03.685+13:002017-02-19T21:17:03.685+13:00Yes Peter,there is an "Anglican doctrine of t...Yes Peter,there is an "Anglican doctrine of the Pearly Gates"; it is known as the "Doctrine of Salvation".It is the core tenant of the first 18 Articles.<br />You may well mock my desire that the Anglican Communion once again,Worships IT'S "FIRST LOVE"> But, this is the very reason why the ACANZP and the Anglican Communion in general is in it's present predicament.<br /><br />I sincerely believe that the Anglican Communion is misleading many people about how narrow the "Path to Life is".However, I do not believe that the test will be, as to whether we prayed "thy/your Will";but as to whether we actually followed His Will.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74442876893617209662017-02-19T21:04:11.012+13:002017-02-19T21:04:11.012+13:00Hi Andrei
I have about as much chance of becoming ...Hi Andrei<br />I have about as much chance of becoming a bishop as foreign-born Melania has of succeeding her husband as Prez!<br />Most working days I wear a priestly clerical shirt ... and very, very few conversations ever result from that. (I realise other clergy have different experiences).<br />I get what you say about mystery but I think all kinds of Christian churches are capable of conveying the reality of our awesome God.<br />The problem is churches who think they have cracked that ... and then find the cloud and the fire have moved on!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91540023166555526332017-02-19T20:56:15.054+13:002017-02-19T20:56:15.054+13:00Brendan, it seems to me that all your argumentatio...Brendan, it seems to me that all your argumentation here with Peter is based on the premise that monogamously ordered homosexual relationships are sinful.<br /><br />On what do you base that premise - other than your insistence that biblical evidence is against such relationships when, in fact, there is no such specific relationship described anywhere in the Bible? In any event, as Peter clearly states; the Old Testament sexual taboos are based on the extant understanding of the writers at the time - and to be viewed in the context of the O.T. emphasis on building up the nation by expansion through heterosexual intercourse. At that time, it was considered to be a failing on the part of a woman not to have produced children for the next generation (nothing was said about the men in this context).<br /><br />Paul's strictures must also be seen in their proper context. It is most likely that he was concerned at the Gentile (Greek) cult of male - and female - prostitution. This had nothing to do with committed monogamous same-sex relationships.<br /><br />Your emphasis on sexual SIN, as though it were the most horrendous category in The Book belies the attitude of Jesus towards such people. He appeared to be more angry with the advocates of The Law, whose hypocrisy about such matters was evident to Jesus - as witness his story of the Phraisee and the Publican in the Temple.<br /><br />And then again, Brendan, you are pronouncing that the loving, monogamous, lifelong relationship of two people of the same gender is 'SIN' .Considering the biblical fact that "All have sinned and have fallen short", why should you presume that that such a relationship is less favourable to God than a childless heterosexual relationship; where the injunction "Go forth and multiply" is impossible. May I suggest that you have a poor understanding of what 'SIN' really is. No wonder Jesus told his disciples that "When the Holy Spirit copmes... He will teach you about SIN"; which state of enlightenment may not yet have been granted to conservative people who cling to out-of-date shibboleths - rather than entering into a new era of enlightenment, about what SIN is, and what it is not.<br /><br />What you need to get under your belt, Brendan, is the fact that homosexual people are, like heterosexual people, "made in the Image and Likeness of God" with all the potential that such a dignity implies. I am mindful that, if you pronounce someone else a 'Sinner', without putting yourself in the very same category; you are running in danger of blasphemy. We are all sinners - sinners already redeemed by Christ. We all have the need to live into that free redemption, with all the hrace and love we can muster. What dioes not help is for any of us to be prepared to "cast the first stone".Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41304917395217303512017-02-19T20:38:02.543+13:002017-02-19T20:38:02.543+13:00As you know, Glen, there is no Anglican doctrine o...As you know, Glen, there is no Anglican doctrine of the Pearly Gates, so I don't expect to be delayed for any chats there. Though I would love to meet my namesake :)<br /><br />I think many Anglicans will be more than troubled by what judgment involves. It certainly won't involve an examination on the finer points of Instinctive Anglican Genius for anything. Well, perhaps for making cups of tea :)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40090613966356883262017-02-19T19:55:19.067+13:002017-02-19T19:55:19.067+13:00Peter,
In acknowledgement of your response to my ...<br />Peter,<br /><br />In acknowledgement of your response to my post on Feb. 17th @ 7.27PM: I simply reiterate my statement: "Neither the Church nor Her Doctrine belong to man".<br />No person coming into the Church has any right to make demands of GOD.All of us, can only stand before GOD, through the "COSTLY GRACE" which He has bestowed upon us.It is "COSTLY GRACE", because it COST GOD the LIFE OF HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.<br /><br />Behind the issue, which the Church of England General Synod,the ACANZP Synod and this site(ADU), are debating; lies the assumption that man has the RIGHT to wander into this realm of decision making.The powers given to Peter (Matt 16:19) and the Disciples ( Matt 18:18), relate only to putting into effect Article 20.<br /><br />I respectfully suggest that the wonderful words about the "Instinctive Anglican genius for living with differences" would make for an interesting chat with St. Peter at the Pearly Gates.<br />Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70724548650076392482017-02-19T13:13:49.752+13:002017-02-19T13:13:49.752+13:00"For once [ :) ], Andrei, your most recent co...<i>"For once [ :) ], Andrei, your most recent comment expresses what I believe!"</i> <br /><br /><i>Au contraire</i> Peter a venn diagram of what you and I believe would consist of two circles that would virtually coincide I suspect<br /><br />Where our views diverge is over how much the Church should conform with the current zeitgeist and for the most part, the current topic being one an exception this is not so much a matter of theology rather one of practice and perhaps of culture<br /><br />The problem with keeping up with the latest fads is they change rapidly, faster than you can follow and in the meantime your rich Anglican Heritage gets forgotten and lost in running the Red Queen's race<br /><br />My daughter went to an Anglican Sunday School for a while supported by her Grandmother who thought it was a good idea but there was little difference between that and her everyday school experience, she didn't dress for the occasion, was confronted with whiteboards and over head projectors and so forth - it might as well have been lesson of multiplication of Fractions<br /><br />But going to Church with her grandmother was special, special clothes, head covered in a scarf and a non worldly environment where we leave the mundane at the door and this is what has stuck with three of my four kids, one for now being hostile to the Church, whatever the flavour, but God willing will like the prodigal return<br /><br />I'd suggest to you that when you become a Bishop, you dress like an Anglican Bishop (is that a purple shirt, Roman collar and pectoral cross?) as a matter of course because in doing so you show the world what you represent and from that evangelization opportunities will arise in everyday interactions. If you are dressed in<i>"business casual"</i> the girl at the supermarket checkout doesn't know you from Adam but dressed the way I suggest she does and if she is seeking or just plain curious the openings will be there and another lost soul may be won<br /><br />There are many seekers out there and they find answers of a sort in yoga, veganism , environmentalism, astrology and so forth but the approach of the "contemporary church" seems more akin to attending a self help seminar, powerpoint and bullet points leaving the spiritual yearning that many have unmet<br /><br />That's my thoughtsAndreinoreply@blogger.com