tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post2831547020148566715..comments2024-03-29T22:00:02.999+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Framing the question well, the answer encourages rather than condemnsPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-81094483186932936782013-08-05T14:05:47.606+12:002013-08-05T14:05:47.606+12:00I also have to wonder, and this is new for me, abo...I also have to wonder, and this is new for me, about the amount of time and energy being expended by both sides.<br /><br />In a world in which every day there are thousands of children starving to death, is God really preoccupied with this issue one way or another?<br /><br />I'm no longer sure.<br /><br />I am sure that if all the gay rights activists and all the social conservative activists just stopped what they are doing and went to work in the poverty ridden slums of Asia or South America, the world might be a slightly better place.<br /><br />And I AM sure that I want BOTH sides to stop using the State to coerce people to conform, either to "Gay Rights" or "Family Values." Using State power to force people to think or live a certain way is never Christian.<br /><br />THE STATE IS NOT OUR FRIEND!<br /><br />Nuff said. Thankyou and goodbye.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-20321257251359331632013-08-05T13:14:59.677+12:002013-08-05T13:14:59.677+12:00These statements are from an unmoderated post;
&q...These statements are from an unmoderated post;<br /><br />"What those in the Church(es) who have problems with Gays"<br /><br />"Those in the Church who really believe Gays are worse sinners than straights"<br /><br />Both of those statements are offensive, hurtful, and just plain wrong. That is not to say that there are not individuals in the Church who may think such things, but to paint all of us who are struggeling mightily with this issue, who have close friends or family who are gay, but who nevertheless feel compelled by God to both love all people AND strive to be obedient to Scriptures teaching on marriage, is simply just another form of bigotry, and totally unfair to us.<br /><br />Such statements take no consideration of others feelings, and no consideration of how they impact our relationships with family and friends.<br /><br />They make civil, respectful, and loving debate and discussion impossible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-44011042963754485932013-08-05T09:32:30.309+12:002013-08-05T09:32:30.309+12:00My tether, Shawn, with Ron's comments, is just...My tether, Shawn, with Ron's comments, is just about at an end ...Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-85869994359828927712013-08-05T09:12:19.437+12:002013-08-05T09:12:19.437+12:00For God's sake Peter, man up, and get a grip o...For God's sake Peter, man up, and get a grip on your blog. Ron's abuse will never stop, and this will blow up in your face badly if you continue to allow him space to vent his bigotry and hatred.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-18876533329642751042013-08-02T09:21:24.692+12:002013-08-02T09:21:24.692+12:00Thanks Bryan. Hi Ron,
I find it singularly unhelp...Thanks Bryan. Hi Ron,<br /><br />I find it singularly unhelpful that nearly always in your comments you presume that conservative Christians, whether Catholic or Protestant, have only previously been incapable of speaking with grace, mercy and peace.<br /><br />Your attitude to conservatives seems to proceed from gigantic misunderstanding of the reality of conservative Christianity.<br /><br />Speck, log?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-29326408839290486522013-08-02T08:08:40.515+12:002013-08-02T08:08:40.515+12:00Here's more on from the article I cited entitl...Here's more on from the article I cited entitled "<a href="http://woodsydude-gkcrocks.blogspot.com/2013/07/shock-pope-francis-preaches-gospel-and.html" rel="nofollow">Shock: Pope Francis Preaches Gospel and Media Reports It ... Enthusiastically?</a>"<br /><br /><br />This just in: Catholics believe (I know it's shocking) in grace, mercy, forgiveness, and redemption, "and if a man seeks the Lord, and is trying to do God's will and has homosexual inclinations, who am I to judge?" Disturbing I know. The pope then goes on to reveal something more shocking still; that those who have homosexual tendencies are not only our "beloved brothers and sisters", but should not be- hold your breath now- "marginalized by the rest of society". I mean the next thing you know he's going to be talking about how every man is in need of forgiveness (not just homosexuals), and that we should reach out to those who are the most vulnerable and on the margins of society. Wait. That is exactly what he is saying, and what the Church has always said. All he is really doing here is restating an old Christian adage- which compels the Christian to separate the <em>sin</em> from the <em>sinner</em>. Apparently some in the media have never heard this expression. In any case, what we are witnessing here is the media actually lauding (as opposed to mocking) the underlying teaching of the Church, a teaching that goes something like this; 'we all fall short of the glory of God, and the last thing anyone should say is that a man is irredeemable or unworthy of love.'<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://woodsydude-gkcrocks.blogspot.com/2013/07/shock-pope-francis-preaches-gospel-and.html" rel="nofollow">Read it all</a>.Fr. Bryan Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02040773309359417883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3155313044102665132013-08-01T21:52:18.566+12:002013-08-01T21:52:18.566+12:00Sorry, Kurt - it must be jet lag, after 2 months i...Sorry, Kurt - it must be jet lag, after 2 months in Europe at 35C, on return to N.Z at about 10C. I mistakenly addressed you in my last comment on this thread, while all the time thinking of Brian.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-9751663738839318332013-08-01T15:33:42.133+12:002013-08-01T15:33:42.133+12:00Your 'NEWS', Kurt, is not "BREAKING N...Your 'NEWS', Kurt, is not "BREAKING NEWS". Anyone with any understanding of the dogmatic stance of the Roman Catholic Church on issues of gender and sexuality already knows what the doctrine is. <br /><br />What Pope Francis was here saying in public has rarely, if ever, been uttered publicly before by a reigning pontiff. THAT is the real news, and it is precisely what the media were speaking about.<br /><br />What those in the Church(es) who have problems with Gays don't seem to understand is that we now have a Pope who is not afraid to enunciate in public the reality of the fact that homosexual people are beloved of God just the same as any other human being - no less, no more. <br />His Holiness was, in other words, speaking the Gospel of inclusion, which is the True Gospel. This is different from those in the Church who really believe that Gays are worse sinners than Straights.<br /><br />What the Pope did not say, however, is that for the Roman Catholic Church, heterosexual divorce is also sinful - as is sexual activity outside of marriage. This may just be why conscientious monogamously related Gay couples want the Church to acknowledge that their desire for a blessing of their faithful relationships is no less than that of conscientious heterosexual couples - whom the Church will bless, whether or not they are capable of producing children, which is one of the barriers put up by the Church against gay marriage.<br /><br />No, Brian, you have not discovered something new about the media. What you may have discovered - if you are open to it - is the fact that a living Pope is speaking the Gospel of inclusivity. Sin is possible in all relationships - whether straight or gay. That is what this Pope is emphasising in his joust with the media. Now that's new!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-50991679294352009622013-08-01T10:28:04.437+12:002013-08-01T10:28:04.437+12:00BREAKING NEWS: The Pope endorses Roman Catholic mo...BREAKING NEWS: <a href="http://woodsydude-gkcrocks.blogspot.com/2013/07/shock-pope-francis-preaches-gospel-and.html" rel="nofollow">The Pope endorses Roman Catholic moral teaching</a>!Fr. Bryan Owenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02040773309359417883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-23713385152816851342013-08-01T04:57:24.180+12:002013-08-01T04:57:24.180+12:00"Kurt the Pope didn't feel "compelle..."Kurt the Pope didn't feel "compelled" to "address the question" rather he was asked a specific question (in Spanish) and gave a detailed answer to that question (in Spanish) from which a couple of sentences have been extracted, translated into English and widely reported (sans context"<br />--Anddrei<br /><br />Perhaps so, but he also could have simply said "No comment."<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-18571966125843362682013-07-31T18:53:08.168+12:002013-07-31T18:53:08.168+12:00A moderated comment from Ron (please don't tal...A moderated comment from Ron (please don't talk about "so called Christians"- real Christians are entitled to argue that homosexual sexual activity is wrong without having fellow Christians then say unkind and untrue things about them)<br /><br />""to cite the Catechism is to acknowledge that the pope was speaking the Church’s long-voiced teaching on homosexual persons, in direct refutation of the prevailing “church hates gays” narrative the media promotes." - Janice - <br /><br />Sadly, Janice, it is not only the media who promote the idea that some Christians have less than respect for Gay people. ...<br /><br />I believe Pope Francis may be just opening the doors to a new understanding by Roman Catholic authorities to the fact that LGBT people are intrinsically oriented in their sexual make-up, and are to be judged for their behaviour in exactly the same way as those who are considered to be 'normal'.<br /><br />Scriptural statement on the issue are hardly to be considered informed by modern sociological and scientific observation of the phenomenon; ...."Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87671040299923397792013-07-31T12:14:26.288+12:002013-07-31T12:14:26.288+12:00Elizabeth Scalia has an interesting take on it, ev...Elizabeth Scalia has an interesting take on it, even referencing Sun Tzu's <i>The Art of War</i>.<br /><br />At <a href="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/07/donrsquot-tell-the-press-pope-francis-is-using-them" rel="nofollow">First Things</a> she quotes Francis:<br /><br /><i>A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will — well, who am I to judge him? The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well. It says one must not marginalize these persons, they must be integrated into society. The problem isn’t this [homosexual] orientation — we must be like brothers and sisters. The problem is ... is lobbying either for this orientation or a political lobby or a Masonic lobby.</i><br /><br />Then she makes the following comment:<br /><i>In this case, nothing Francis actually said about homosexuality was new. In fact, in these two quotes Francis is doing nothing more than pronouncing long-standing Catholic teaching on homosexuality, sin, and the mercy of God.<br /> <br />Let that sink in for a moment: A pope is teaching the Christian faith, and the press is accurately quoting him, in blazing headlines that everyone will read.</i><br /><br />At <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2013/07/30/pope-francis-and-the-art-of-war/" rel="nofollow">The Anchoress</a> she states:<br /><br /><i>to cite the Catechism is to acknowledge that the pope was speaking the Church’s long-voiced teaching on homosexual persons, in direct refutation of the prevailing “church hates gays” narrative the media promotes... he neutralized the power of the media narrative; he exposed the truth that in Christ there is mercy and forgiveness, and that the church exists to offer this in his name; he set whatever “gay lobby” exists in the church on notice that while he has no intention of acting as gay-priest-witch-hunter, he won’t tolerate a bloc acting against the interests of the church.</i><br /><br />More times than I can count we have heard here, from people who could reasonably be described as gay lobbyists, that Christians who oppose the normalisation and blessing of homosexual practices "hate gays". Apart from being presumptuous the assertion is offensive and, dare I say it, un-Christian. These people stir up division and antipathy between Christians and between the church and the world. They are, indeed, the problem.Janicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-80214108129869729812013-07-31T10:13:14.533+12:002013-07-31T10:13:14.533+12:00The very fact that the Pope of Rome felt compelled...<i>The very fact that the Pope of Rome felt compelled to address the question as he did speaks volumes.</i><br /><br />Kurt the Pope didn't feel <i>"compelled"</i> to <i>"address the question"</i> rather he was asked a specific question (in Spanish) and gave a detailed answer to that question (in Spanish) from which a couple of sentences have been extracted, translated into English and widely reported (sans context)<br /><br />http://saltandlighttv.org/blog/world-youth-day/a-note-on-the-popes-remarks-to-journalists-en-route-to-romeAndreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04536593172412406428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-14575558651672161772013-07-31T08:05:44.601+12:002013-07-31T08:05:44.601+12:00Carl, you are again mixing apples and oranges.
T...Carl, you are again mixing apples and oranges. <br /><br />The very fact that the Pope of Rome felt compelled to address the question as he did speaks volumes.<br /><br />Kurt Hill<br />Brooklyn, NYKurtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55382611344312191292013-07-31T07:03:16.958+12:002013-07-31T07:03:16.958+12:00Greetings
Great post.
I like, Peter, the way you...Greetings<br /><br />Great post.<br /><br />I like, Peter, the way you use the word "evangelical" in this post (twice). I wonder how many readers will misread it as "evangelical" (it is possible to read your post in that manner). My preference is to use "evangelical" in the way you have here.<br /><br />Blessings<br /><br />Boscoliturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-26425557849357046242013-07-31T06:20:16.735+12:002013-07-31T06:20:16.735+12:00Hi Carl
On the matter of same sex sexual sin, as f...Hi Carl<br />On the matter of same sex sexual sin, as far as I can tell, the teaching of the RCC remains a teaching consistent with Scripture.<br /><br />I would be a little surprised if Francis 1 would not have a view on such an egregious sin as you mention. I take his comment about 'who I am to judge' to apply to those among us tempted to simply judge a self-identifying homosexual as being on a wrong path rather than being open to the work God is doing in that person's life as they seek God.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-16854366978184971402013-07-31T00:58:49.612+12:002013-07-31T00:58:49.612+12:00Peter
When we make judgments we must judge by a ...Peter <br /><br />When we make judgments we must judge by a right standard. That standard is not what is right in our own eyes. That standard is not a consensus of opinion. That standard is not some subjective impression of the Spirit doing a new thing. That standard is Scripture. We can (and should) condemn what Scripture condemns. So while it is true that naming homosexual behavior as sin is not a sufficient response, it is certainly a necessary response. You can't simply ignore the behavior. If a man deserts his wife and children for another woman do you refuse to condemn his behavior? Then let it be so for the homosexual.<br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.com