tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post2876833409542495966..comments2024-03-30T00:33:32.285+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Limits of authority?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70680118326682632802013-08-07T15:59:15.188+12:002013-08-07T15:59:15.188+12:00Alison; given the way comments on this thread bega...Alison; given the way comments on this thread began, you might be interested now in this delightful interview and the book they speak of:<br /><br />http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/08/when-god-spoke-greek<br /><br />Enjoy!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-28071216117888643252013-08-03T12:25:17.569+12:002013-08-03T12:25:17.569+12:00From Bryden (sorry, pushed 'delete' by mis...From Bryden (sorry, pushed 'delete' by mistake instead of 'publish'):<br /><br />I don’t know Alison if you know the film, Dead Poets Society, in which Robin Williams plays the role of a literature teacher at a prestigious boys’ academy. Well; as he’d say, “Thank you for playing” - sincerely. However, I can assure you my question was and is no “trick question”; it is most important. And thank you Tim for nicely amalgamating both sides of my old 45 vinyl with your paraphrase of both Peter’s question and my own. (Even if I do not quite agree with you thereafter about how we may seek to navigate the necessary issue of the hermeneutics of the Scriptural canon - see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/40623476/Lions%20Work%20ed%2011.pdf if you can be bothered!) Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-42756094125582524112013-08-03T11:31:35.093+12:002013-08-03T11:31:35.093+12:00I can assure you Ron, it is highly unlikely that m...I can assure you Ron, it is highly unlikely that most English speakers - including yourself - would naturally and easily pick up the double entendre in the phrase “responsible speech”, one that necessarily addresses <i>both</i> senses, “both answering and answerable”, as they duly respond to God’s addressing them. Unless of course they are Augustine! See July 25, 2013 at 11:41 AM. And surely he is no Parsifal ...<br /><br />For there’s also the implied question: What constitutes “responsible speech”? And once again the answer to that question is seldom appreciated; it takes an Augustine to try to make it plain. Yet even he is barely understood nowadays ... For my money, I’d like to suggest you engage with Jean-Luc Marion’s <i>In The Self’s Place: The Approach of Saint Augustine</i>, notably his opening chapter on the double meaning of Confession - both in praise of God’s glory and in our own laying bare of our sin before the sheer glory and beauty and holiness of the One True God - whose praise thereafter acknowledges such contemplation of the divine mercy and compassion in Christ Jesus and the Gift of the Holy Spirit with regard to human sinfulness that we are ever set upon an utter dialectical journey of double confession that the cosmos will indeed be filled the Glory of the Triune God for ever! Really; absolutely really!!! Or just try Rev chs 4 & 5 ...Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8431243729878668112013-08-01T15:44:22.484+12:002013-08-01T15:44:22.484+12:00Dear Tim, although you and I don't see eye to ...Dear Tim, although you and I don't see eye to eye on every matter propagated on this blog, I do appreciate your very clear reasoning set out above, on the dangers of a literalisitc interpretation of every Bible passage. <br /><br />One of the problems with biblical literalism is the old chestnut of: if Cain, after slaying Abel, went off and got married; whom did he marry? Was it a sister we didn't hear about in the narrative? What might this have to say about other people's existence at the time - besides Adam, Eve and their 2 sons?Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-78099353640807346202013-08-01T05:51:27.574+12:002013-08-01T05:51:27.574+12:00Excellent points, thank you, Tim.Excellent points, thank you, Tim.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-21525346539186740982013-08-01T05:19:20.829+12:002013-08-01T05:19:20.829+12:00If I might weigh in briefly here (I'm on holid...If I might weigh in briefly here (I'm on holiday, and so busy with family stuff and only checking blogs occasionally), I don't think the question of 'how we authorise our belief' (which I take to mean 'What authority do we recognize in deciding what we think is true?') is a simple one at all. All the usual answers have inherent problems.<br /><br />Let's start with 'The Bible'. The problem is that no 'Bible-believing Christian actually takes all the statements in the Bible as authoritative for their belief and practice. If we did, we'd be stoning people to death for adultery and for cursing their parents, returning all land to its original owners every fifty years, and abolishing the system of lending money at interest. We might even appeal to a bloodstained sheet as evidence that, contrary to the accusations of her new husband, a bride was a virgin on her wedding night.<br /><br />Obviously, then, the concept of 'the authority of the Bible' does not mean 'the authority of every single statement in the Bible'. We therefore need some sort of hermeneutical system for deciding which statements continue to have authority for us, and which do not. A 'canon within the canon', perhaps? And there is also the problem that much of the Bible is, in fact, narrative. How are we to understand the concept of an authoritative narrative?<br /><br />What about tradition? All well and good, and often very helpful, but there are problems here, too. For one thing, have you noticed how the word 'tradition' is almost always a bad word in the gospels? How Jesus often sees it as a barrier to obeying the command of God? And for another thing no church that claims to recognize the authority of tradition actually obeys everything in the tradition. So once again, how do you decide what's authoritative and what's not?<br /><br />Anabaptist-oriented folk like me tend to appeal to Jesus as the Word of God, but even that is problematic. After all, how do I know anything about Jesus unless the gospels are at least reasonably historically reliable (and, of course, scholars are all over the map on this one)? Are we back to 'the authority of the Bible', then? Well, not necessarily - a reasonably reliable gospel tradition is not necessarily the same thing as an infallible and inerrant Bible.<br /><br />So - as I say, I see it as a complicated question, and I think that people who are looking for solid rock certainty are not going to get it.Tim Chestertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13676859074652475474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-29615454841825666432013-07-31T19:24:21.346+12:002013-07-31T19:24:21.346+12:00I wonder if it is only Alison and I who find some ...I wonder if it is only Alison and I who find some of the theological gobbledegook expressed in response to her quite simple question of Peter, and her quite simple answer to Bryden, to be somewhat esoteric, and hardly helpful to anyone not acquainted with academic discourse?<br /><br />Really! For Bryden to feel the need to express his comments in the original German language, lest he lose the force of his argument, is nothing more than scholastic persiflageFather Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-78971935875851126332013-07-31T18:45:35.490+12:002013-07-31T18:45:35.490+12:00Hi Alison
That is quite persistent refusal on your...Hi Alison<br />That is quite persistent refusal on your part to answer the questions!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-39431681315021107762013-07-31T17:58:28.193+12:002013-07-31T17:58:28.193+12:00For those who can be bothered to read all this .....For those who can be bothered to read all this ... It might throw some light on our "Discuss" requests ...<br /><br />http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2013/07/22/10-basic-facts-about-the-nt-canon-that-every-christian-should-memorize/Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55536599267915810992013-07-31T16:23:11.139+12:002013-07-31T16:23:11.139+12:00Thanks, Bryden,
I never realised it was a trick q...Thanks, Bryden,<br /><br />I never realised it was a trick question.<br /><br />AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3257502544503325742013-07-31T16:21:17.691+12:002013-07-31T16:21:17.691+12:00"And there is only one answer to that: the Bi..."And there is only one answer to that: the Bible. Without the authority of Scripture we would not know what to have faith in in the first place." Shawn<br /><br />So it was not possible to have faith prior to the writing of the Scriptures and agreement about the canon?<br /><br />AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33066757689528238512013-07-31T16:18:54.384+12:002013-07-31T16:18:54.384+12:00"Hmm." Peter Carrell
How then, Alison, ..."Hmm." Peter Carrell<br /><br />How then, Alison, do Christians discern the truth?<br />July 26, 2013 at 1:48 PM <br /><br />it would be helpful to learn from you, Alison, what your positive contribution to the question of discernment is. <br />July 26, 2013 at 6:05 PM <br /><br />Hi Alison, I'd slightly rephrase Peter's question and ask:<br />How do you authorise your belief? <br />July 26, 2013 at 8:15 PM <br /><br />I am also concerned that I have not yet heard an answer from you to the question I asked. <br />July 27, 2013 at 8:01 AM <br /><br />Still pending Alison ... <br />July 27, 2013 at 8:02 PM <br /><br />pray tell, how dost thou, O Alison, authorize thine own belief? <br />July 28, 2013 at 12:36 PM <br /><br />I continue to look forward to your own constructive proposal! <br />July 28, 2013 at 1:33 PM <br /><br />"Equivocation rules" - OK?! <br />July 29, 2013 at 9:57 AM <br /><br />Hi Alison<br />I think Bryden is keen to hear from you, as I am, about what authorises your belief.<br /><br />- How, in your view, do Christians (or should Christians) discern truth?<br /><br />- What is the basis for your own belief about God?<br />July 30, 2013 at 7:26 AM <br /><br />G’day Alison,<br /><br />Nothing very complicated actually; in fact, it’s quite simple.<br /><br />either continue down the road of equivocation; or address those concerns raised by this really rather basic human question. The choice is yours. And thank you in anticipation. <br />July 30, 2013 at 1:28 PM <br /><br />AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-83305639914611376042013-07-31T10:19:59.771+12:002013-07-31T10:19:59.771+12:00Thank you Alison for your seemingly “straightforwa...Thank you Alison for your seemingly “straightforward” answer to my question. <br /><br />But I say “seemingly” now myself for a very good reason. For if this were your answer to the question, What authorizes your belief(s)?, then in effect you are saying that your own faith authorizes your belief(s). Now; to be sure, this is indeed what most people in western societies do actually mean, given our contemporary culture and its philosophical and (a)theological history these past decades/centuries. But it simply will not work! It is a tautology and a mere existential declaration. It is actually a case once more of the Emperor’s clothes.<br /><br />On the contrary - and to answer now your own request of myself - a genuine Christian answer to my question goes as follows: the triune God authorizes Christian belief. My/our part thereafter is just this, as Eberhard Jüngel puts it so succinctly: Verantwortliche Rede. I give the original German, since the German initially catches the necessary double meaning in English of “responsible speech” - “both answering and answerable”. The entire point of the Christian Faith is that we humans of ourselves cannot help ourselves, as the old BCP puts it. Just so, the entirety is therefore based on God’s own Good and Compassionate Grace, as declared and demonstrated in the economy of salvation, climaxing in Jesus Christ and the Gift of the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />There is of course far more that should immediately follow from this, like where Peter started on this thread, quoting myself: “Scripture is both the authoritative witness to and unique instrument in the saving economy of God”. For here we have a necessary tying together of the Word-made-flesh in Jesus and that indispensable, authoritative testimony to this Person. For what will we ‘fill’ the word “Jesus” with? Not all uses of the word “Jesus” and “Christian” are equally authoritative - far from it! Here again there are nuances: we have four Gospels, not merely one; yet we do not have 24 - others are precisely outside the canon! And thereafter again, as Karl Barth famously elaborated, the Word has a necessary threefold form: the Person of Jesus Himself; Holy Scripture; and finally, the Church’s proclamation. The last thing (for now) I’ll touch on is the Church’s own witness in word and sacrament, “founded on the apostles and prophets”. Here of course such things as interpretation come into play - the meaning of texts and the significance of the sacraments. But others (like Martin) have already given us a steer here. To close, I’d only recommend again what someone else on this Blog profusely thanked me some time ago for bringing to her attention: Paul Griffiths & Reinhard Hütter, eds, <i>Reason and The Reasons of Faith</i> (T&T Clark, 2005), being papers from the Princeton Center of Theological Inquiry colloquia between 2000-2003. It speaks into our age and its unique dilemmas just brilliantly.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91928751519197926212013-07-31T00:55:18.882+12:002013-07-31T00:55:18.882+12:00Alison,
My position has not moved at all. And I h...Alison,<br /><br />My position has not moved at all. And I have already posted above the proof that Scripture does indeed clearly teach that Adam sinned and passed on his corruption to all humanity.<br /><br />Faith in what? People had faith in Hitler. Christian faith is a response to God's revelation. The question you have steadfastly refused to answer is; how does God reveal Himself so that we can have true saving faith in the first place?<br /><br />And there is only one answer to that: the Bible. Without the authority of Scripture we would not know what to have faith in in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-52411750781258164932013-07-30T21:19:13.732+12:002013-07-30T21:19:13.732+12:00"Haranguing" Alison?
Hmm.
In any case,..."Haranguing" Alison?<br /><br />Hmm.<br /><br />In any case, I am not prevaricating. Perhaps procrastinating. Certainly prognosticating. I have actually begun the draft of the post you are asking for ...<br /><br />All in good time.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-80689818492944625072013-07-30T21:04:18.910+12:002013-07-30T21:04:18.910+12:00Shawn: yes, I think we are singing from the same G...Shawn: yes, I think we are singing from the same Geneva hymnbook. Insofar as the Scriptures use human language, they can be understood by anyone of normal intelligence equipped of a good translation and enough persistence. But to grasp their meaning with faith ('I, the reader, am a sinner in need of forgiveness and Christ is the means of salvation') does indeed need the work of the Spirit. This saving knowledge, as opposed to objectifying knowledge - such as the demons have.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-69539491031640149522013-07-30T20:58:21.924+12:002013-07-30T20:58:21.924+12:00Shawn, you have now moved from the not-mentioned-i...Shawn, you have now moved from the not-mentioned-in-the-Bible “original sin” to the not-mentioned-in-the-Bible “fall”. By doing so you are just reinforcing my point, and undermining your own. <br /><br />As to Peter’s and Bryden’s now-becoming-obsessive haranguing that I need to authorise my belief (a concept so esoteric even Bryden acknowledges it would not be found in a google search, nor does he provide his own authorisation as an exemplar, nor has Peter) in order to question the approaches others present here, I note all the while that Peter himself is continuing to prevaricate on the simply-understood question whether he agrees with Shawn’s last 2 paragraphs of 22 July 11:30am or not.<br /><br />Finally, my response to Shawn’s straightforward question (at least I can understand what he is saying): my faith.<br /><br />AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-76984923488620140852013-07-30T20:37:41.197+12:002013-07-30T20:37:41.197+12:00Hi Martin,
I think we are on the same page, but I...Hi Martin,<br /><br />I think we are on the same page, but I should have qualified what I said by saying, 'Human reason is radically corrupted, and, on it's own, without the light of the Holy Spirit, cannot be relied upon. With the Holy Spirit, reason, like tradition, is an important tool for understanding Scripture. But it is a tool only, and not itself a source of special revelation.'<br /><br />Hope that clarifies things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-71510596574653506942013-07-30T18:19:01.761+12:002013-07-30T18:19:01.761+12:00A brief response to some of Alison's comments ...A brief response to some of Alison's comments on Shawn's (alleged) views:<br /><br />"Revelation is by Scripture alone. There are different interpretations of Scripture. This is the fault of human error and sin. Human reason is radically corrupted and so cannot be relied upon to rightly interpret the Scripture."<br /><br />No, that is overstating things and is not what the Reformers actually claimed. Read Turretin on the perspicuity of Scripture ('claritas Scripturae'). Most of the Bible is *not actually difficult to understand; it is not some elaborate and esoteric code. That was the burden of Irenaeus's complaint against the Valentinaian Gnostics, that they treated the Bible like a cryptic code for their bizarre gobbledygook. Read any standard work on historical interpretation from Irenaeus to the present. Early Christians were sophisticated people! Check out resources on hermeneutics by Don Carson in the Institute of Contemporary Christianity. Human reason is used to interpret Scripture, but it needs the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture in its truest sense, as the personal conviction of sin and the call to repentance and faith.<br /><br />"Numbers do not matter. So a minority interpretation can be the truth, and a majority position false."<br />Up to a point. The Arians were probably the majority in the middle years of the 4th century, notwithstanding the decree of Nicea. The argument raged for years, and the central question for both parties was: which teaching truly interprets the Bible?<br /><br />"So God has produced the only source of revelation knowing that we cannot use it for that purpose."<br /><br />Not true. See above on historical hermeneutics. We have the dominical promise that those who seek will find.<br /><br />"And with eternally devastating consequences, or so some interpretations of Scripture have it – but who knows!"<br /><br />God knows. Every theoretical theological question needs to return to the personal one: Do I seek His glory or mine?<br /><br />"As to Shawn’s scattering of Bible quotes – some are well-known for their ambiguity even in the original Greek, none mention the doctrine explicitly, and all are open to a variety of interpretations."<br /><br />Just about all doctrines involve a level of abstraction, a collation and ordering of biblical texts, which implies necessarily that the Bible has a symphonic unity, rather than a heterogeneous and often antagonistic collection of 'voices' - which is where the atomizing tendencies in modern secular 'biblical' studies has taken us. (The speech marks are deliberate because the modern secular approach doesn't work with the idea of a canon but rather 'ancient Jewish' or 'early Christian' literature.) That all human beings have a radical disposition to sin is taught by all Christians, Orthodox included.<br />Again, my best advice to Alison is to do some reading in the history of Biblical Interpretation. You can find a succinct introduction to these questions in the essays at the back of the ESV Study Bible, before looking at deeper engagement by first-rate scholars like Vanhoozer, Carson, Habermas or Tim Ward. The Reformers did not emerge in a vacuum or propose their ideas de novo. Their strongest roots are in the Antiochene school of Theodore of Mopsuestia.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-7290584600260892132013-07-30T17:01:10.003+12:002013-07-30T17:01:10.003+12:00... in case you have still to "translate"...... in case you have still to "translate" my repeated question: Shawn has himself now gone half way - but only half way - towards translating it himself, with his v latest "simple question".<br /><br />I'd however prefer not to use that word of yours, "translate"; I am not translating Peter's earlier question. Rather, the relationship between the two is more like this: they are the flip side of each other akin to two songs on an old 45rpm vinyl record. Nor am I saying Peter's is the A side and my question the mere B side!! Each question approaches the same core concern from a slightly different perspective, each worthy of being asked. Enjoy!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-18361964843872353202013-07-30T16:08:14.121+12:002013-07-30T16:08:14.121+12:00Alison,
Simple question. What is the basis in you...Alison,<br /><br />Simple question. What is the basis in your view for knowing that God has revealed Himself?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74150136951292317602013-07-30T16:05:36.327+12:002013-07-30T16:05:36.327+12:00Alison,
All forms of Christianity believe in the ...Alison,<br /><br />All forms of Christianity believe in the fall of humanity, including Eastern Christianity. They may not use the sane terminology, such as "original sin" but the basic idea is still there.<br /><br />"Sensible" answers have been given to Alisons questions contra Ron's usual and still ongoing Ad Hominem comments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40284826523512846652013-07-30T13:28:26.313+12:002013-07-30T13:28:26.313+12:00G’day Alison,
Nothing very complicated actually; ...G’day Alison,<br /><br />Nothing very complicated actually; in fact, it’s quite simple.<br /><br />You have demonstrated a penchant for dissecting others’ beliefs. Fair enough; that’s the world of blogging. Now it’s quite simply your turn. Rather than offering us only negative critique, let’s have some positive construction. To wit: what authorizes your own beliefs?<br /><br />Now; that is actually a very concise question, embracing especially some of the major themes of this thread and its title. Nor am I at all surprised a google search was pretty unhelpful! It’s not your average run-of-the-mill approach to life that is being addressed by the question. In fact, most of the time most people will strenuously avoid addressing the issues raised by it - as have you too to date.<br /><br />So; either continue down the road of equivocation; or address those concerns raised by this really rather basic human question. The choice is yours. And thank you in anticipation.Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-17193591631343632312013-07-30T07:26:07.199+12:002013-07-30T07:26:07.199+12:00Hi Alison
I think Bryden is keen to hear from you,...Hi Alison<br />I think Bryden is keen to hear from you, as I am, about what authorises your belief.<br /><br />True, in a comment above, you confess to not understanding Bryden's question. So let me repeat my own question and offer a reframing of his question. I do so on the basis that, as I re-read your comments above, you seem very clear about what does not work for you about discerning truth and authorising belief but say little about a constructive way forward.<br /><br />- How, in your view, do Christians (or should Christians) discern truth?<br /><br />- What is the basis for your own belief about God?<br /><br />I am working on my response to your questions to me about Shawn's presuppositions.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-23006439638350859422013-07-30T06:49:56.712+12:002013-07-30T06:49:56.712+12:00It is a little difficult to understand to what Bry...It is a little difficult to understand to what Bryden's sardonic comment refers. Best interpretation I can see, is it applies to the length of time it is taking for Peter to decide whether he agrees with Shawn's points or not.<br /><br />Alison.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com