tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post345844976514830796..comments2024-03-30T00:33:32.285+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and I'm on holidayPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-22792232468056461772017-01-18T15:53:21.735+13:002017-01-18T15:53:21.735+13:00"that something called "Liberalism"..."that something called "Liberalism""<br /><br />I am assuming you have heard of Friedrich Schleiermacher, John Shelby Spong, Loyd Geering, Don Cupitt, Katharine Jefferts Schori, among many others?<br /><br />'Liberal churches are dying. But conservative churches are thriving.'<br /><br />"A Canadian study found that conservative churches are still growing, while less orthodox congregations dwindle away.<br /><br />Mainline Protestant churches are in trouble: A 2015 report by the Pew Research Center found that these congregations, once a mainstay of American religion, are now shrinking by about 1 million members annually. Fewer members not only means fewer souls saved, a frightening thought for some clergy members, but also less income for churches, further ensuring their decline.<br /><br />Faced with this troubling development, clergy members have made various efforts to revive church attendance. It was almost 20 years ago that John Shelby Spong, a U.S. bishop in the Episcopalian Church, published his book “Why Christianity Must Change or Die.” It was presented as an antidote to the crisis of decline in mainline churches. Spong, a theological liberal, said congregations would grow if they abandoned their literal interpretation of the Bible and transformed along with changing times.<br /><br />But the liberal turn in mainline churches doesn’t appear to have solved their problem of decline.<br /><br />Over the last five years, my colleagues and I conducted a study of 22 mainline congregations in the province of Ontario. We compared those in the sample that were growing mainline congregations to those that were declining. After statistically analyzing the survey responses of over 2,200 congregants and the clergy members who serve them, we came to a counterintuitive discovery: Conservative Protestant theology, with its more literal view of the Bible, is a significant predictor of church growth while liberal theology leads to decline. The results were published this month in the peer-reviewed journal, Review of Religious Research."<br /><br />https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/04/liberal-churches-are-dying-but-conservative-churches-are-thriving/?utm_term=.6647d32fcd87<br /><br />'The Empty Church: The Suicide of Liberal Christianity'<br /><br />https://www.amazon.com/Empty-Church-Suicide-Liberal-Christianity/dp/0684828111<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43825429760914306502017-01-18T02:01:05.559+13:002017-01-18T02:01:05.559+13:00"Liberalism is gutting the older mainstream d..."Liberalism is gutting the older mainstream denominations of the Gospel."<br /><br />I took this to mean that something called "Liberalism" was reducing the participation, membership, and budgets of congregations that belong to "denominations of the Gospel." If "Liberalism" and "denominations of the Gospel" can be made clearer, if some mechanism of change can be specified, and if we have data on participation, membership, and budgets, then this is a claim of cause and effect open to evidence-supported discussion. Such a discussion could be worthwhile if it illumined the social forces causing nearly all large denominations, even the conservative evangelical Southern Baptist Convention, to slow or negative rates of growth. I care about that and I think other readers do too.<br /><br />But no--<br /><br />"...the trajectory of mainline Protestant denominations towards an explicitly Liberal theology..." <br /><br />So what was actually meant was something like--<br /><br />*Liberalism* is making the older *denominations of the Gospel* more explicitly *Liberal*. <br /><br />"...has been well documented and is observable enough to both think and talk about."<br /><br />Yes, with similar clarifications, one could have a somewhat impressionistic discussion of that. But such a discussion would be much less valuable to me and I suspect to other readers.<br /><br />Bowman Walton<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70025369037059080922017-01-17T21:42:28.011+13:002017-01-17T21:42:28.011+13:00No, not me, Brian!No, not me, Brian!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1952872740328648642017-01-17T20:35:40.033+13:002017-01-17T20:35:40.033+13:00"Brian, reading about the history of other Pr..."Brian, reading about the history of other Protestant traditions through the lens of one's own is not acquiring the understanding that practitioners of those traditions have and use in their own communities."<br />Oh, I dunno - that's a bit like saying only an Arabic speaking Muslim "understands" Islam - and as all we know, the world is full of vast numbers of (usually) Arabic speaking Muslims who "misunderstand" Islam, which is only "understood" by the New York Times. The best (most profound and most sympathetic) interpreter of Islam I ever met or read was (the Arabic speaking) Bishop Kenneth Cragg ... an Anglican of course. :) And my guide to understanding the early church and the differences between Latin and Greek thought has been Gerald Bray ... another Anglican. Maybe you underestimate the power of a good liberal education? And the ability of an 'outsider' to see things an 'insider' can't? Of course there are things we inhabitants of the Anglosphere won't easily see or readily understand (such as why the dispute between Lutherans and Calvinists was so fierce in 17th and 18th century Germany - but Britain was also at war internally 1642-53 over comparable matters).<br />"This is especially true where one's own tradition has defined itself in opposition to the tradition of interest. For example, Father Ron is less helpful as a guide to evangelical faith and practice than Peter."<br />What a beautifully English way of putting it! But I lack all tact and manners: I think Peter is likely a more helpful guide to Anglo-Catholic faith than dear Ron! <br />"So whatever we call them, we cannot have a continuing witness to the distinctive insights of Luther, Calvin, Wesley, etc. without continuing communities of practice."<br />What I said above about Islam. From what I know about neo-pagan-liberal Swedish Lutherans (for instance), I seriously doubt you would understand Martin Luther very well from them. The Uniting Church of Australia would be embarrassed to meet John Calvin today. And modern Methodists, at least in the US, are seriously divided by the incubus of liberal Protestantism. Isn't GWB a Methodist? And the once future President HRC? 'Continuing communities of practice' only make sense if they continue to practise what their "founders" taught.BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89780452681454175212017-01-17T13:58:02.107+13:002017-01-17T13:58:02.107+13:00Bryden,
"I sense Shawn you are perhaps rathe...Bryden,<br /><br />"I sense Shawn you are perhaps rather missing the point"<br /><br />Always a possibility!<br /><br />Yes, I do understand what you are saying, and yes to due humility, however, with a caveat. The essence of the Reformation was a firm belief that Rome was well off track with regards to the Gospel, and to Christian/Church praxis. That required a view that the Gospel and Christian practice could be determined from Scripture. Not perfectly, and not with total clarity, but with enough clarity that a determination could be made that reform was a necessity. And surely that determination of Luther and Calvin required a view that was not solely situational, but assumed that a broader clarity, over and above our situated reality, could be found in the Word.<br /><br />I am not sure if what Bowman and you are saying is the same, yet. But I am sure that, even with due humility, God has revealed Truth with enough clarity in Scripture that Truth can be found and known in His Word,again not with perfect clarity, but with enough, and that Semper Reformanda, based on the diligent study of Scripture is a possibility Which means that critiquing doctrines and practices, in all churches, is also a possibility, regardless of our individual situated being. Otherwise, an acknowledgement that we are all situated can too easily dissolve into postmodernism's denial that any Meta-Truth is possible. And that is as much a heresy as modernism. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-35871154423281531472017-01-17T11:32:07.008+13:002017-01-17T11:32:07.008+13:00I sense Shawn you are perhaps rather missing the p...I sense Shawn you are perhaps rather missing the point - or at least, one of the points Bowman is trying to make.<br /><br />The hermeneutics of a Richard Hooker are not quite the same as that of the Puritans. Otherwise I suspect there would not have been quite so much fuel for the English Civil War. And yet both would I also suspect say they were seeking the Truth.<br /><br />So; it’s not a case frankly of postmodernism. Rather, it’s a case of due humility, an acknowledgment that we humans are all always “situated”. Au contraire; it’s only the hubris of an Enlightenment Project’s Modern Universalism that would try to say otherwise ...<br /><br />Francis Schaeffer put it nicely when he distinguished between true Truth and exhaustive Truth. Only God knows the latter; while those of us who seek after His Truth, by means of the Scripture’s written Truth, always seek the former, for this side of the parousia, like everything else, we know only that Truth in faith not by sight. Now; such a faith based hermeneutic is not to be contrasted with knowledge (back to the Enlightenment’s Modernistic heresy). Such people as Polanyi and TF Torrance, AE McGrath and John Webster all know that ANY human knowledge necessarily employs a faith dimension. Consequently, it’s a case of faith, hope and love, embodied in those communities who seek to practice certain forms of Truth.<br /><br />And finally, on the basis of that last sentence, please don’t merely lump me into a supposed “postmodern” camp <i>simpliciter</i>! For what else are we dealing with when we have FOUR Gospels rather than only one. True; as I am fond of saying, we don’t have twenty four!! Multiculturalism’s pluralism <b>is</b> a false ideology. Yet the likes of Richard Bauckham and Francis Watson’s work is surely right: their careful detailing of the particularity of the four amongst the coherence of the single whole as testimony to the Truth of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is the best summary I have encountered. And we’d all be wiser if we were to sit humbly at their feet ...Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60037496755650279792017-01-17T09:39:29.546+13:002017-01-17T09:39:29.546+13:00"reading about the history of other Protestan..."reading about the history of other Protestant traditions through the lens of one's own is not acquiring the understanding that practitioners of those traditions have and use in their own communities."<br /><br />It might, it might not. It depends on how well the person writing has done their homework. I don't think that can be elevated to an absolute rule the way you have. I get the distinct whiff of post-modernism in much of what you say, and this is a good example.<br /><br />"This is especially true where one's own tradition has defined itself in opposition to the tradition of interest."<br /><br />It may be less true, if the critique of the other tradition is accurate. Ron's critiques of evangelicalism are more often then not inaccurate. It does not follow that all critiques from outside evangelicalism are.<br /><br />Post-modernism posits that there is no over-arching Truth by which all truth claims can be evaluated. That we cannot understand any community other than our own because we have not had the lived experience that people within that community have had. Down that road lies the plague of multiculturalism.<br /><br />Despite the name, Protestantism is not merely reaction. It is also a positive statement, a claim of Truth.<br /><br />I believe that the five Sola's are an accurate distillation of Biblical truth, truth with a capital 'T'. On that basis I understand and believe that prayers to Mary and the saints are contrary to Biblical teaching, and thus on that basis I can critique the practice in both Roman Catholic and Eastern orthodox churches. That I may not have has the lived experience of practitioners within those traditions is irrelevant. Where God's revelation in Scripture is concerned, something is either true or not true. Truth is determined by God, and given to us in Scripture. Multiple "truths" determined by diverse human communities, or diverse faith communities, do not determine God's truth. That is putting the cart before the horse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43261063085092924272017-01-17T08:31:02.747+13:002017-01-17T08:31:02.747+13:00Bowman,
" but I cannot reconstruct it from y...Bowman,<br /><br />" but I cannot reconstruct it from your comment of January 15."<br /><br />I have no idea what that means.<br /><br />"The posited web of causal relations connecting the irregular practice of St Mary's, Glasgow and, say, the decisions of the millions of people whose grandparents attended *mainline* churches in the US is not explicit enough to think about."<br /><br />I have no idea what that means either.<br /><br />But the trajectory of mainline Protestant denominations towards an explicitly Liberal theology has been well documented and is observable enough to both think and talk about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-67321769693909434762017-01-17T04:14:13.629+13:002017-01-17T04:14:13.629+13:00Shawn, I am not uninterested in your intended repl...Shawn, I am not uninterested in your intended reply to my argument of January 14, but I cannot reconstruct it from your comment of January 15. The posited web of causal relations connecting the irregular practice of St Mary's, Glasgow and, say, the decisions of the millions of people whose grandparents attended *mainline* churches in the US is not explicit enough to think about. <br /><br />By "mainline" I mean the denominations of the old "Protestant Establishment" in US society, just as by "mainstream" I would mean, not just those denominations, but also the Roman Catholic Church, the larger Orthodox jurisdictions, and probably the Mormons. At least in the US, both terms classify churches by their relation to our society at a particular time.<br /> <br />Brian, reading about the history of other Protestant traditions through the lens of one's own is not acquiring the understanding that practitioners of those traditions have and use in their own communities. This is especially true where one's own tradition has defined itself in opposition to the tradition of interest. For example, Father Ron is less helpful as a guide to evangelical faith and practice than Peter. So whatever we call them, we cannot have a continuing witness to the distinctive insights of Luther, Calvin, Wesley, etc. without continuing communities of practice. <br /><br />Bowman WaltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10603144918619596812017-01-16T09:55:42.935+13:002017-01-16T09:55:42.935+13:00Shawn: I'm afraid this is Kevin Holdsworth all...Shawn: I'm afraid this is Kevin Holdsworth all over. To judge form his blog - and his complete inability to sustain an argument with an opponent - he seems to make up the content of the Christian faith as he goes along, jettisoning the parts he doesn't like.<br />His grasp of theology, not to mention Christian liturgy, is very weak.<br />As things are, the Scottish Episcopal Church has a tiny following and getting smaller. BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55024317834979354732017-01-15T22:39:26.971+13:002017-01-15T22:39:26.971+13:00Bowman said:
"the reason that they are not i...Bowman said:<br /><br />"the reason that they are not is exclusively due to something he calls "liberalism.""<br /><br />Like this for example...<br /><br />'Episcopal Church Celebrates Epiphany With Muslim Song'<br /><br />"One Episcopal church in Scotland celebrated Epiphany this year by letting a Muslim sing a song — which denied the very basis of the Christian holiday. In fact, the song, taken from Surah 19 of the Quran, explicitly rejected a doctrine fundamental to the Christian faith.<br /><br />On Epiphany Sunday, January 8, 2017, Muslim singer Madinah Javed sang a portion of Surah 19 — including a section which flatly states that Jesus is not the Son of God — during a Eucharistic service at St. Mary's Episcopal Cathedral in Glasgow."<br /><br />https://pjmedia.com/faith/2017/01/12/episcopal-church-celebrates-epiphany-with-muslim-song/<br /><br />That is Liberalism, and that is a perfect example of how Liberalism is gutting the older mainstream denominations of the Gospel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54768949963339520402017-01-14T20:09:36.585+13:002017-01-14T20:09:36.585+13:00Presbyterians. In old payphones in NZ you had to &...Presbyterians. In old payphones in NZ you had to 'Press Button A' to connect, 'Press Button B' to get your money back if the call didn't connect - or if you didn't want to pay for a quick shouted message (e.g. 'I've arrived') before you were cut off automatically. Of course, the suggestion that we Scots don't like paying for anything is racist slander. Now have I mentioned free internet resources?BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-67847312083125938212017-01-14T18:01:05.424+13:002017-01-14T18:01:05.424+13:00Apologies for the double posting...things got...co...Apologies for the double posting...things got...confusing. <br /><br />Brian, what on earth were or are the "Press Button B's"???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-4030270113619046052017-01-14T13:25:09.816+13:002017-01-14T13:25:09.816+13:00I'm not sure if my last post made it to Peter,...I'm not sure if my last post made it to Peter, so...<br /><br />To clarify, as Ron tends to radically over-state the reality, I have been Evangelical for over twenty years now, and in the Vineyard church for 15 years. <br /><br />I had a brief flirtation with Roman Catholicism in the mid 1980's, and I have one foot, so to speak, in the Anglican Church solely because I am married to an Anglican Minister.<br /><br />I don't think the reality of my theological and church history amounts to being a "spiritual gypsy".<br /><br />And of course none of this is relevant to the issues actually being discussed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89882323641920186982017-01-14T12:48:39.780+13:002017-01-14T12:48:39.780+13:00"(b) Some important currents of the ecumenica..."(b) Some important currents of the ecumenical tradition are not fully knowable apart from the old "denominations," and the latter still do a reasonably good job of representing the former. You can still learn about St Thomas from Catholics, Luther from Lutherans, Calvin from the Reformed, etc. And although some are deluded about this, you still cannot learn about Calvin from Catholics, Luther from Calvinists, or St Thomas from Lutherans. Alas, you cannot learn about Richard Hooker or St Maximus from any of them, and in a global village that matters."<br /><br />- But I have learnt about just of all of these (for free, thanks to the internet!!!) from Anglicans like Gerald Bray and Alistair McGrath and Baptists like Tim George and from Richard Reeves at Gordon-Conwell, and someone whose name I forget at Covenant St Louis. Good church historians are there for the finding in the evangelical world, you just need to know where to look.<br />BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-78256696038240724372017-01-14T12:39:08.246+13:002017-01-14T12:39:08.246+13:00"Please also do not - here - judge fellow Chr..."Please also do not - here - judge fellow Christians as being potentially immature in their faith because their commitment to the local (say, Presbyterian) church in Omakau does not translate to a commitment to remain Presbyterian when they move to Otematata and find the local church best expressing the gospel is, say, the Baptist church."<br /><br />Ah, that made me smile because for three years of my childhood I lived in Otematata (my father worked at Benmore) and the only church I knew then was our local Catholic community which met (IIRC) in the school hall of Otematata District High School. I was only dimly aware of the existence of other 'churches' like the "Press Button B's" as we called them although I was assured they weren't 'real churches' and only we Catholics could trace our origins back to Christ. On my way home from school I would pass a mysterious building called 'Gospel Hall' which was always locked. Otematata was a thriving metropolis of about 4000 souls then, so I imagine the ecclesiastical choice today is rather less than in those heady days.BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-42089191466574409552017-01-14T09:59:55.803+13:002017-01-14T09:59:55.803+13:00To be clear, as I think Ron tends to radically ove...To be clear, as I think Ron tends to radically overstate the reality for his own polemical purposes, I have been firmly planted within one theological tradition, Charismatic Evangelicalism, for well over twenty years now, and mostly within one Church for the last 15, the Vineyard, which is why I approach many things from a Vineyard pov. The only reason I also have a foot, so to speak, within Anglicanism, is because I'm married to an Anglican minister. <br /><br />I had a brief flirtation with Roman Catholicism in the mid 1980's, but that aside, I don't think my church or theological history can reasonably be described as that of a "spiritual gypsy".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8189044476583213462017-01-14T09:51:01.561+13:002017-01-14T09:51:01.561+13:00Hi Bowman,
"but that Shawn objects that (b) ...Hi Bowman,<br /><br />"but that Shawn objects that (b) no denominations are the vehicle for any such traditions"<br /><br />No, that's not what I meant, or said, though I may have been unclear. <br /><br />First, I was speaking solely about Protestantism, and solely about the older Protestant mainstream denominations. There are many newer Protestant denominations that are vehicles for a clear and specific tradition.<br /><br />Secondly, even then, denominations alone are not the sole boundary markers. Evangelicalism is a movement within the wider body of the Church that sometimes manifests in a single denomination, but also transcends them, as it can be found within Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist churches, and so forth. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33466460612229971092017-01-14T08:44:25.682+13:002017-01-14T08:44:25.682+13:00Hi Ron
Please do not put speculative views about w...Hi Ron<br />Please do not put speculative views about what I would prescribe into my mouthpiece in response to a comment I have made descriptively about how many Christians currently act.<br /><br />Please also do not - here - judge fellow Christians as being potentially immature in their faith because their commitment to the local (say, Presbyterian) church in Omakau does not translate to a commitment to remain Presbyterian when they move to Otematata and find the local church best expressing the gospel is, say, the Baptist church.<br /><br />This blog is called "Anglican" Down Under precisely because I am committed to being Anglican, to reflecting on what it means to be Anglican and to both covertly and overtly arguing that the Anglican church is the best form of church to be committed to.<br /><br />I have found in the course of my life that not everyone is persuaded by my arguments and thus I try to relate well to Christians who do not share my commitments!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-68171800789779443262017-01-14T05:00:44.136+13:002017-01-14T05:00:44.136+13:00It seems that Ron and Shawn agree that (a) there i...It seems that Ron and Shawn agree that (a) there is such a thing as a tradition that is a "basis on which to judge the validity of the positions of others," but that Shawn objects that (b) no denominations are the vehicle for any such traditions, and (c) the reason that they are not is exclusively due to something he calls "liberalism." I cannot agree with any of these three propositions.<br /><br />(a) Christian formation is inherently a matter of tradition, but what is more or less adequate to the definition of identity (eg handbook theology, standard polemics) has never been adequate to the understanding or evaluation of positions of differently situated Christians. This is true whether the identity is denominational or theological.<br /><br />(b) Some important currents of the ecumenical tradition are not fully knowable apart from the old "denominations," and the latter still do a reasonably good job of representing the former. You can still learn about St Thomas from Catholics, Luther from Lutherans, Calvin from the Reformed, etc. And although some are deluded about this, you still cannot learn about Calvin from Catholics, Luther from Calvinists, or St Thomas from Lutherans. Alas, you cannot learn about Richard Hooker or St Maximus from any of them, and in a global village that matters.<br /><br />(c-1) English-speaking Protestants have inherited especially flimsy membranes between denominations that never needed to happen. It is not surprising that they are disintegrating as the founding reasons for them are gradually forgotten. Just because we are "in a change of era more than in an era of change," some once-urgent ideas are proving to be too shallow to survive, but that was also true in AD 100, 500, 1000... <br /><br />(c-2) Ecumenism and evangelicalism have both offered sturdier sacred canopies than the odd "distinctives" of the "denominations." The German liberal tradition somewhat facilitated early ecumenism, but today inherently conservative projects of retrieval matter much more. Some Pentecostal theologians (eg Simon Chan) have been bridging ecumenical and evangelical faith effectively.<br /><br />(c-3) In some locales, denominations are rightly viewed as unhelpful clericalist obstacles to the emergence of a place-engaged, laic, Christian polis. <br /><br />(c-4) Global polities on a synodical model (eg Central Methodist Conference, Anglican Communion, Orthodox Great Council) are still too young to evaluate. They may thrive if they attract loyalty as more than representative structures.<br /><br />Bowman Walton<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33980485153014430152017-01-13T23:44:03.324+13:002017-01-13T23:44:03.324+13:00With all due respect, Peter, it would seem that yo...With all due respect, Peter, it would seem that you do not consider commitment to a particular community in the Body of Christ to be important any more. Surely there must come a point where one makes an actual commitment to a particular Church community? Otherwise, what is the point of Baptism and Holy Communion within a specific Christian Family? Or is this what is now being taught at places like Laidlaw College - that commitment is not necessary as long as one is free to flit from community to community for the frisson of 'difference'. I'm not sure any other Church Leader would agree with you on this point. Occasional visits to other Churches are sometimes essential. However, one must surely commit oneself to a particular Church community to become a living member of the Body of Christ. The role of spiritual gypsy cannot be conducive to one's maturation in faith. Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-45155510989806779742017-01-13T21:39:34.200+13:002017-01-13T21:39:34.200+13:00And speaking of eclecticism Ron, to what degree ar...And speaking of eclecticism Ron, to what degree are your own feet "securely into one particular denominational tradition"?<br /><br />The classical Anglican tradition was defined in part by the 39 Articles, which you reject. Your own stated view of the Eucharist is the Lutheran one, not the classical Anglican view, and your theology and practice regarding Mary and the saints is Roman Catholic, also not the classical Anglican tradition.<br /><br />I'm not saying there is anything wrong with any of this necessarily, I'm not criticising, just pointing out that perhaps you and I are more similar in our denominational eclecticism than you may realise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-13359985622235759312017-01-13T20:58:24.578+13:002017-01-13T20:58:24.578+13:00Hi Ron
Shawn has a point: denominations are not wh...Hi Ron<br />Shawn has a point: denominations are not what they used to be.<br />There are plenty of people worshipping in Anglican churches today who do not consider themselves Anglicans, nor consider denominational loyalty much to shout about, especially not as they belong to this church in this town, to a different denominational church in another town and so forth.<br />We are in a change of era more than in an era of change ...Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-82173134525625222432017-01-13T20:33:46.616+13:002017-01-13T20:33:46.616+13:00Hi Ron,
"which is the one form you would cla...Hi Ron,<br /><br />"which is the one form you would claim as 'your own'?"<br /><br />Evangelical Charismatic.<br /><br />"until oner puts one's feet securely into one particular denominational tradition... one might have no basis on which to judge the validity of the position of others."<br /><br />100 hundred years ago, perhaps even fifty, that might have been true, maybe, but it's not at all true today. Mainstream denominations are meaningless. They no longer describe or represent a 'turanga waiwai'. Within the institution of the Anglican Communion you can find churches that have absolutely no true relation to each other in terms of theology, doctrine, and praxis. Merely being under the same episcopal oversight does not matter anymore. Natural diversity in unity has been overcome by anarchy. Holy Trinity Bromptom has more in common with Vineyard churches than it does with Liberal Anglican churches. HBT Anglican churches and Vineyard churches are, in terms of theology and praxis, within the same tribe.<br /><br />The true dividing lines today, the true 'turanga waiwai', are not found in denominational tribes, but in theological tribes that transcend the old denominations.<br /><br />Liberalism has rent asunder the old mainstream denominations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55931342114402088082017-01-13T19:47:54.857+13:002017-01-13T19:47:54.857+13:00Shawn, you write here of your willingness to exami...Shawn, you write here of your willingness to examine other brands of Christianity than you own. However, in your obviously eclectic experience of Christianity, what would you actually consider as beng 'your own' brand of Christian discipleship - from Roman Catholic to Vineyard and other experiences; which is the one form you would claim as 'your own'? My own experience is that, until oner puts one's feet securely into one particular denominational tradition - a 'turanga waiwai', one might have no basis on which to judge the validity of the position of others.Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.com