tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post359271623066422691..comments2024-03-29T06:58:28.383+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Definitive Communion split coming over marriage? [UPDATED]Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-22492809584407946642015-06-13T21:26:26.646+12:002015-06-13T21:26:26.646+12:00Hi Anonymous
While I appreciate the service you ar...Hi Anonymous<br />While I appreciate the service you are providing re the flow of information, I will not publish your comments again unless you supply your name.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-7260137977294678212015-06-13T09:03:22.509+12:002015-06-13T09:03:22.509+12:00"The General Synod of the Scottish Episcopal ..."The General Synod of the Scottish Episcopal Church has today voted to begin a process for change in relation to its Canon on Marriage. It has therefore instructed the Church’s Faith and Order Board to begin the two year process which may lead towards canonical change. That change would potentially allow the marriage of same gendered couples in Church in late 2017. The option which Synod voted for states:<br /><br />Removal of section 1 of Canon 31. This option would remove section 1 from Canon 31* in its entirety so that the Canon was silent on the question of a doctrine of marriage.<br /><br />General Synod also decided to add a conscience clause that ensures that no cleric would be obliged to solemnise a marriage against their conscience...."<br /><br />http://www.scotland.anglican.org/faith-and-order-board-marriage/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-3671446639779281112015-06-12T19:45:55.254+12:002015-06-12T19:45:55.254+12:00I think it would be wise for ANZAP to keep marriag...<br />I think it would be wise for ANZAP to keep marriage and blessing as they stand at the moment. My premise is based on the following:<br />a) What has happened in countries where churches have introduced blessings or ordination of same sex couples (e.g. US, Canada). It<br /> appears division and more vehemence appears by those holding both views, sitting alongside the verse<br /> a house divided against itself wall fall.<br />b) The 'next move' in the story, to remove gender from marriage canons to me seems a step where all loose. For sure heterosexual or <br /> same sex attracted, gender is important and seperate from sexuality; to remove this is to take away how God made us.<br />c) What is the hurry? I understand for committed same sex christ followers their desire is to have their faith involved in a relational bond. <br /> At the same time the possibility of marriage of such couples by law has only recently been made here, it would be unwise to rush into changing the biblical status of marriage in order to keep up with the play, what is the phrase; 'act in haste repent at leisure'. As one article points out blessing is done in the Name of God which points to not wanting to bless what God does not or conversely, not wanting to call unclean what God has made clean. While complete surety may never come, I do believe there may come a time when the certainty about where the Holy Spirit is leading us through the word and revelation is a lot clearer than it is now.<br />d) There is nothing new under the sun. I do not see the 20th century as particulary enlightened. I think it has been known throughout history that some people have desires for the same sex. I have real questions about their being no mutual same sex non-promiscuous relationships in biblical times such as existed in Assyria. <br />e) Theology and scripture - the views on homsexuality in scripture appear consistent throughout the Old and New Testament and none are seen in a positive light at the same time they are not seen on their own as the impardonable sin - having heard Vines before I couldn't help but consider his points yet at the same time have the sense it is what he wanted scripture to really be saying. There is no such cohension in the Bible with the issues of Slavery or the role of Women (being always seen in a negative sense). I totally agree with all those who advocate not using scripture to 'bash' those of differing points, nor to conform scripture to experience.<br /><br />On the other hand:<br />What an opportunity to take at present to really approach the practical question of Pastoral Care to people who have all sexual preferences. My take is that all our identities are in Christ - in that He loves and desires a relationship with all - not in our sexual preferences. How do we make talking about being sexually attracted in anyway not a taboo subject in churches? For there is nothing that we experience that is not common to man.<br /><br />I can also understand Tony Compolo's conclusion and acknowledge how he has struggled with his own opinion on this matter especially how rejection can be felt by those who are in stable same sex relationships and desire to also be faithful Christians. How was Jesus able to connect with those who broke 'the law' offering them grace and love, somehow accepting them 'as they were' yet keeping at the same time still upholding the principles they were breaking? What or how can we act more like Him?<br /><br />Blessings JeanJeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-67616970056405852032015-06-12T17:33:44.026+12:002015-06-12T17:33:44.026+12:00Dear Ron,
I am not in despair though clearly I may...Dear Ron,<br />I am not in despair though clearly I may have given that impression!<br />TEC may be showing the way forward here (with Canada, thank you, Tim).<br />Time will tell.<br />Nevertheless I would be a bit surprised if the global church found itself following TEC's lead in some great majority. I cannot even see the Communion doing that (maybe Scotland, Ireland, Wales and ACANZP will follow suit ... maybe just Scotland???).<br />Why not? Because it is engrained in Scripture and tradition that marriage is between a man and a woman. It goes against that grain to say otherwise.<br />Nevertheless, to reiterate a point I made above in response to Tony Campolo, and to support your point here, to a degree, it is much better for any two people in a sexual relationship to be faithful, loving, stable than to be promiscuous, unfaithful, unstable and unloving. That the church might find a way to support such faithfulness is a reasonable question to ask? I remain unconvinced that changing our 'engrained' doctrine of marriage is something the church is authorised to do.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-39767528093186526642015-06-12T17:31:23.369+12:002015-06-12T17:31:23.369+12:00Tony Campolo could have mentioned contraception wh...Tony Campolo could have mentioned contraception which has surely had a far bigger effect on a far larger group of people with massive social and moral consequences than the recognition of ss partnerships. I really wish someone had charted in an in depth scholarly way the Anglican path in this matter from the 1880s to 1958.It would surely have some salience with our present difficulties.After all our conservative RC friends would say we are where we are now because of the Lambeth Conferences cautious welcome to contraception in 1930.It is said that this prompted the Papal Encyclical Casti Conubi<br />Perry Butler... ( have I spelt that right??MarcAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18347727959672751531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-37437772327564546132015-06-12T15:01:51.593+12:002015-06-12T15:01:51.593+12:00One key feature of the ATR and subsequent correspo...One key feature of the ATR and subsequent correspondence between Hill and Anderson is the desire for both engagement with other arguments and courteous reasons for upending their logic. Something we all need I sense ...Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-24664846061314018462015-06-12T10:07:07.806+12:002015-06-12T10:07:07.806+12:00Dear Peter, It should by now be quite obvious that...Dear Peter, It should by now be quite obvious that TEC occupies a significant role as a prophetic voice within the world-wide Anglican - Communion. This has brought us to the point where we now rejoice in the ministry of women, the understanding that homosexuality is a normal variation in the human condition and that gay people are not wilful dissenters from the sexual norm. We now have the Episcopal Church in North American leading us into a new paradigm of what constitutes the highest form of monogamous relationships - whether of homosexual or heterosexual couples - in the context of a legally-contracted marriage. Each of these new situations would not have been seriouly entertained - either in Church or society in former times. <br /><br />Contrary to your despait about this forward movement of the Church, I feel, with Tony Campolo, that the Church will need to catch up with the compassionate leading of the outside world on this justice issue - in order not to lose the support of living human beings on an issue that seems to be set to encourage faithfulness in relationships, rather than acceding to its alternative - which is rampant promiscuity, such as has become rife in the heterosexual world<br />Faithful same-sex marriages could be an encouragement, rather than a barrier to heterosexual couples. making the same faithful commitment.father ron smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-5286505008491588042015-06-12T09:43:56.763+12:002015-06-12T09:43:56.763+12:00Peter: The Anglican Church of Canada currently has...Peter: The Anglican Church of Canada currently has a task force working on revisions to the marriage canon, which will bring its report this Fall. There may be a motion at our General Synod in 2016 - I think there probably will be.<br /><br />Tim ChestertonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-48573902734455042992015-06-12T08:45:26.285+12:002015-06-12T08:45:26.285+12:00Dear Tony,
We need to find a way to welcome all pe...Dear Tony,<br />We need to find a way to welcome all people into the life of the church, even when we are part of the church which cannot see a way forward re same sex marriage itself. Thank you for this helpful comment (and explanation of your own stance which will not win you friends in certain parts of our church).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-14429993814480572762015-06-12T07:28:28.902+12:002015-06-12T07:28:28.902+12:00"...As a social scientist, I have concluded t..."...As a social scientist, I have concluded that sexual orientation is almost never a choice and I have seen how damaging it can be to try to “cure” someone from being gay. As a Christian, my responsibility is not to condemn or reject gay people, but rather to love and embrace them, and to endeavor to draw them into the fellowship of the Church. When we sing the old invitation hymn, “Just As I Am”, I want us to mean it, and I want my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters to know it is true for them too.<br /><br />Rest assured that I have already heard – and in some cases made – every kind of biblical argument against gay marriage, including those of Dr. Ronald Sider, my esteemed friend and colleague at Eastern University. Obviously, people of good will can and do read the scriptures very differently when it comes to controversial issues, and I am painfully aware that there are ways I could be wrong about this one.<br /><br />However, I am old enough to remember when we in the Church made strong biblical cases for keeping women out of teaching roles in the Church, and when divorced and remarried people often were excluded from fellowship altogether on the basis of scripture. Not long before that, some Christians even made biblical cases supporting slavery. Many of those people were sincere believers, but most of us now agree that they were wrong. I am afraid we are making the same kind of mistake again, which is why I am speaking out.<br /><br />I hope what I have written here will help my fellow Christians to lovingly welcome all of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters into the Church."<br /><br />Tony Campolo<br />http://tonycampolo.org/for-the-record-tony-campolo-releases-a-new-statement/#.VXngrJ4ayK0Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61707968613796844862015-06-11T22:24:25.388+12:002015-06-11T22:24:25.388+12:00Thanks Peter for this clearing house operation. Go...Thanks Peter for this clearing house operation. Good lines of discussion among all this material which mercifully supplements our own local meagre resources. Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.com