tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post3754974011678621432..comments2024-03-28T22:29:52.666+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: GAFCON and the future shape of the Anglican CommunionPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-73693960748333515252013-11-03T17:15:59.643+13:002013-11-03T17:15:59.643+13:00Oops; apologies - (and cf. Romans 16:25 for the ex...Oops; apologies - (and cf. Romans 16:25 for the expression) - a typo in haste ...Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-76538581766149697252013-11-03T17:12:51.700+13:002013-11-03T17:12:51.700+13:00Thank you Ron for the engagement yet again, and fo...Thank you Ron for the engagement yet again, and for not giving up on me - just as I too now try to reciprocate.<br /><br />Well; what IS the Gospel, Ron? For any of us? While it is most certainly Good News, I have also to conclude it involves as well what is aptly termed bad news too. The references are just too many to count! See only a recent post of mine on another thread re Baptism and the NT Catechism. Today’s Gospel was an aspect of this even; and our preacher took the line of summing it up as “transformation”, a word I’ve used myself often. You might have also.<br /><br />Where the line is drawn between what may be continued after “repentance and belief” (Mk 1:15), what necessarily given up, and what might be adiaphora (but depending upon circumstances perhaps: giving up alcohol for a while while working with alcoholics, say; wearing ceremonious vestments, etc.) is the heart of your and my disagreement. “My Gospel” (and cf. Romans 1:25 for the expression) is certainly full of joy and fresh new wine and fresh praise and confession; that is why I love St Augustine’s <i>Confessions</i>, a glorious testimony but far more than that! I love too Luke’s constant reference to “joy” in his Gospel and Acts: <i>it rings true!</i><br /><br />The reason I might be coming across to you all “hell-bent” is a complex business: you have never actually argued your position cogently or coherently enough re homosexual persons not having to “give up” their <b>expressing</b> their orientation in homoerotic behaviour; and moreover you are doing this precisely - or rather, not doing this - as a priest and teacher in the Church - my own church furthermore! People listen to you; as they do myself. We cannot both be correct on this one ... and the issue is not one of adiaphora ... So; I persist in ‘calling you out’. What might stop the seeming negativity is probably a serious hermeneutical engagement by yourself that goes beyond 13 second sound bytes ... And while of course none of us are ‘saved’ by our ‘theology’, as priests in Christ’s Church we are beholden NOT to lead “little ones” astray (Matt 18) - which warning of course is addressed to all us “teachers”; just so James 3:1 ...Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-9150806176168059312013-11-03T13:03:55.889+13:002013-11-03T13:03:55.889+13:00Hi Ron
I am omitting bits of the comment below for...Hi Ron<br />I am omitting bits of the comment below for which there is no justification on the basis of what Bryden has written:<br /><br />""By seeming to grant gay men and lesbian women this means of sanctification, as a means that is of their actual lives lived here unto salvation, you are actually thereby creating a "fowler's snare". - B.B.<br /><br /><br />May I respectfully suggest, Bryden, that it might be you who may be "creating a fowler's snare" - [what you are saying runs the risk of being understood as demonising a group within humanity]!<br /><br />Where in all of this is "The great love of God as revealed in the Son" I wonder? My job as a priest, is to help people to find the way to heaven, not to condemn them to hell. [Your theological stance appears to point in a different direction].<br /><br />I struggle to find the Gospel in [what you are saying re homosexuality]. <br />"Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-83504296070519759592013-11-03T03:29:44.233+13:002013-11-03T03:29:44.233+13:00Actually Ron, there is a distinction, one that has...Actually Ron, there is a distinction, one that has been made for centuries by the Church. The institution of marriage has been sanctified precisely as a means of our own human sanctification - but formally for that relationship which is between a man and a woman. Other means are precisely offered others - should they so choose/feel called. You seem unable or unwilling to discern this important and vital distinction. <br /><br />By seeming to grant gay men and lesbian women this means of sanctification, as a means that is of their actual lives lived here unto salvation, you are actually thereby creating a "fowler's snare". <br /><br />And while surely salvation is supremely God's business, as you say, yet your very own tradition wld state of the Church two vital things: that she formally encourage her children in their lives leading to salvation; and that she formally do not lay any obstacle upon them that would hinder such lives. <br /><br />Frankly Ron your position is self-contradictory. Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-9342689858748610652013-11-02T20:16:40.313+13:002013-11-02T20:16:40.313+13:00"...perhaps we could also say that those who ..."...perhaps we could also say that those who find themselves burdened with same-sex attraction (for whatever reasons, due to whatever aetiology) are similarly needful - specifically now re their sexuality. And if not, why not?" - Bryden Black <br /><br />I'm not aware, Bryden, of having suggested anything other - than that all of us; heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual, trans-gender and a-sexual; we all of us need salvation. My point is that not one of those categories is any more (or any less)in need of salvation than any other.<br /><br />You seem to suggest that, in some way, gay people are in greater need of salvation than straights. I do not believe that. Full stop.<br /><br />In any event; salvation is God's business - not ours. As Saint Paul says, when he agonises about the fact that he often chooses the wrong path: 'But, thanks be to God for the victory IN CHRIST JESUS!<br /><br />I really do recommend to you Father Faber's wonderful hymn: "There's a wideness in God's mercy" - <br />then, maybe, you wouldn't worry so much about your need to take responsibility for the salvation of other people - or even your own.<br /><br />I sometimes think that professional theologians feel they have all the world and her husband hanging on their diagnosis of what is wrong with the world. Just 'Trust and Obey, there is no other way". <br /><br />Really, Bryden, its all about "You in your small corner and I in mine. We, pray. Then we do what we can, personally, to be obedient to <br />God's call on our lives.<br /><br />There was lovely piece of scripture for the Gospel at Mass this morning" "I will lose nothing of all that the Father has given to me, and I WILL raise it up on the last day" - Jesus. When were we given to Christ by the Father? -In our Baptism. Our Baptism is kept alive in us by the work of the Holy Spirit and through our frequent reception of Christ in the Mass. It's all pretty simple, really. No amount of theologising will make it any easier - simply because, God sent His Only-Begotten Son into the world so that none should perish, but have eternal life. I reckon God is generous enough to deal with our petty concerns - about angels and pinheads. He is more concerned about the lack of love in the world. And one way of helping that situation is for us not demonise others, in the Name of Christ.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-64850573925323370212013-11-02T13:35:26.280+13:002013-11-02T13:35:26.280+13:00The idea that Columbus proved that the earth is a ...The idea that Columbus proved that the earth is a sphere (or, rather, an oblate spheroid) is a fiction made up by Washington Irving (author of The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and, I think, Rumpelstiltskin). What he proved is that those were correct who told him, before he set out, that the diameter of the world is larger than he thought it was. Google flat earth myth.Janicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-18967983032281446092013-11-02T11:23:51.458+13:002013-11-02T11:23:51.458+13:00Thank you Ron for advancing the discussion a step....Thank you Ron for advancing the discussion a step. Perhaps we might now advance it another step further again.<br /><br />Given that both you and I confess the need of a saviour, which very confession is an integral part of that salvation beyond profession, perhaps we could also say that those who find themselves burdened with same-sex attraction (for whatever reasons, due to whatever aetiology) are similarly needful - specifically now re their sexuality. And if not, why not?Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-59022821684659920682013-11-01T23:30:19.471+13:002013-11-01T23:30:19.471+13:00Bryden, if I did not believe in the need of a Savi...Bryden, if I did not believe in the need of a Saviour, I certinaly would never have lived my live in the way it has unfolded. It is the very basis of my existence. I am a sinner. I know it. I acknowledge my need, every day, of redemption, and Jesus Christ truly is "My way, my truth my life"<br /><br />Paraphrasing St. Paul's assurance"<br /><br />"There is nothing in all creation - not even Bryden Black's theology - that can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Deo gratiasFather Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-13995896131437285032013-11-01T03:55:07.065+13:002013-11-01T03:55:07.065+13:00Dear Ron,
Two responses. I cannot follow your chr...Dear Ron, <br />Two responses. I cannot follow your chronological explanation since I accessed Ould AFTER you.<br /><br />Then secondly. Thanks for explaining to me how you explain the current understanding of same-sex attraction. It parallels - until towards the end when you stray into Biblical hermeneutics - what I already well appreciate. Where you and I might seriously differ is as follows.<br />Current interpretation - and I deliberately use that word versus your “facts”; all ‘facts’ are just that soley by means of some heuristic ‘explanatory frame of reference’ or ‘theory’ - of human sexuality may stand for what it attempts to be, an understanding, for better or worse. Where Scripture comes in however is where <i><b>behaviour</b></i> comes into play - irrespective of attempts at explanatory causation. And I am firmly of the view that same-sex attraction’s causation is multifactorial; it may <i>not</i> be explained by any reductionist theory; the best science to date confirms this.<br />So back to “behaviour”: all our contemporary ‘science’ has done is to proffer something re ‘the way things appear to be’. Where the Christian Scriptures come in is at a different level: where certain forms of behaviour are concerned - and there are many such human acts enumerated in the tangled tale of Scripture - these are proscribed, some for reasons that are obvious (at all times and places) and others for reasons that might be more or less obscure - until we start digging via a hermeneutical process. Such a process then reveals certain acts - “seething a kid in its mother’s milk” for example - pertain to fertility rites among the Canaanites (rather than being a promotional means of selling twin-drawer Fisher & Paykel dishwashers to kosher minded Jews in America), and so may be ignored (except if one is a kosher minded Jewess). Other acts - like homosexual behaviour - irrespective of deemed causation are nonetheless still taboo.<br />Sure; I’m fully aware some today, derived from apparent ‘new science’, try to couch <i>some</i> forms of this activity as kosher, <i>given certain situations as opposed to others, like seeming ‘monogamy’ versus promiscuity</i>. But this merely assumes a hermeneutic that dismisses all mention of NT references to same-sex activity as being their observations of such activity in different situations than the now presumed ‘monogamous’. How can you know this? How can you presume to know Paul did not observe the full gambit of homosexualities (NB Plural), the full gambit of forms of homosex activity? The entire Graeco-Roman culture knew of a staggering range ... Of course, such folks as Scroggs and Haller try to do this - but the exegetical evidence just isn’t there. What’s there is a classic form of eisegesis that precludes what they wish to avoid - on other grounds entirely. Frankly, the ‘new science’ aetiology is a <i><b>hermeneutical</b></i> furfie! The only way to embrace it fully is to discount entirely the Fall, and to claim the natural world <i><b>as it currently appears</b></i> is very good. Fine; but doing that simply opens a can of worms that leaves you without the need for any saviour figure ... Do you want to do this?Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87897101127853021072013-10-31T21:16:13.168+13:002013-10-31T21:16:13.168+13:00"What do we have to conclude from such an app..."What do we have to conclude from such an approach?" - Bryden Black -<br /><br />I'll try, once more, Bryden, ro answer your question -hopefully with our host's approval this time:<br /><br />A matter of public record is the fact the Peter Ould makes the public claim that, in his own experience, homosexuals can be 'cured' of their condition by some sort of spiritual 'therapy'. <br /><br />What I am saying is that, the former head of a high-profile organisation in the USA, that claimed to have 'cracked it', not so long ago recanted his insistence on a 'cure' for homosexuality.<br /><br />What responsible psychotherapists have discovered, is that bi-sexual people (like Mr Ould) can sometimes be encouraged to choose to direct their activity towards exclusively heterosexual expression - by dint of marrying and having children. <br /><br />For many bi-sexuals, anyway, this has always been an option. It does not mean that they are 'cured' of their homosexual inclinations, it may mean that they have been able to sublimate them, by restricting their sexual activity to the opposite gender.<br /><br />An intrinsically homosexual person<br />has very little incentive or even the chance of sexual congress with a person of the opposite gender. When heterosexual marriage is attempted by such persons, there is a very high failure rate in the marriage, causing distress to all parties - not to mention any children born of that union. <br /><br />This reality is borne out research into human sexuality, and by the general acceptance of the fact that human sexuality is not strictly binary. rather, it is a matter of conformation to a place on a wide continuum - extending from extreme femininity to extreme masculinity. <br /><br />No-one is exclusively masculine or feminine. People most threatened by this reality, are those whose own sexuality in threatened by self-discovery - of a trait in their own make-up that does not fit with their own understanding of themselves.<br /><br />The biological facts herein stated were totally unknown to writers of the Scriptures. This means that people today are wary of being bound by scriptural norms that do not - because they could not - take note of the reality of the human condition as has been revealed in today's world.<br /><br />This reality - of greater human understanding - is not confined to human sexuality. It also explains why the 'flat earth' theory had to be overcome - in order to explore the facts revealed by progressive knowledge, and understanding, of the cosmos.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-58254859061707045872013-10-30T21:54:15.101+13:002013-10-30T21:54:15.101+13:00Hi Ron
In your reply to Bryden I am prepared to p...Hi Ron <br />In your reply to Bryden I am prepared to publish the following,<br /><br />"You'll pardon me, Bryden, I'm sure, when I tell you that this was probably the paragraph that had been taken off Ould's link before I took my copy. When I see the text of this paragraph now, I can quite see why!"<br /><br />I appreciate one can then make a point that Mr Ould writes (nevertheless) as a married man, which is a matter of public fact. I think you are also saying other things which speculate too much on a state of mind/personal situation/experience of life which I think inappropriate to publish. (Note, I am not describing what you say as 'ad hominem', just too speculative).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8954982790579540552013-10-30T14:05:53.751+13:002013-10-30T14:05:53.751+13:00What is most interesting even insightful, Ron, abo...What is most interesting even insightful, Ron, about your posting this Ould link are not only your comments but what you choose to omit - Viz:<br /><br />"For any Bishop who privately supports LGB clergy like myself living lives of Biblical holiness not to speak out publicly against the Church of England endorsing same-sex blessings is for them to betray us. They will be saying to each and every one of us that our choices, our struggles, were not necessary, that in fact we could have given in a long time ago and sought a same-sex relationship. It will be the moment when they, willingly or unwillingly, abandon us and cast us to the edges."<br /><br />What do we have to conclude from such an approach?Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61026357716398136272013-10-30T13:43:23.990+13:002013-10-30T13:43:23.990+13:00Yes!Yes!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75121848645080912952013-10-30T11:58:15.055+13:002013-10-30T11:58:15.055+13:00Peter; if it's Peter Ould's commentary on ...Peter; if it's Peter Ould's commentary on the Gafcon Communique you are after; you can see it, uncluttered, on kiwianglo - together with my own comments. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-6351571811043696712013-10-29T22:05:08.414+13:002013-10-29T22:05:08.414+13:00Hi MichaelA
Peter Ould is a good writer and carefu...Hi MichaelA<br />Peter Ould is a good writer and careful thinker. However his website is really, really annoying: slow, and leaves traces of widgets on my 'history.' Does he have no many devices on the site? Are they deterrents to hackers targeting him?<br /><br />I don't know the answers to these questions but I gave up today trying to read the whole of the article you pointed to!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-39772675045853591622013-10-29T20:52:22.783+13:002013-10-29T20:52:22.783+13:00I guess you will never get unity from eccentric - ...I guess you will never get unity from eccentric - rather than concentric - circles in any case.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-44170485998854606322013-10-29T20:48:46.648+13:002013-10-29T20:48:46.648+13:00Thank you, Peter, for your courtesy in saving me f...Thank you, Peter, for your courtesy in saving me from an embarrassing mis-identification of the two Julians - one from the UK, and the other from ACNA - both gafocnites, but from different Western countries. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-64166113686440576032013-10-29T13:00:32.065+13:002013-10-29T13:00:32.065+13:00Precisely, Bryden!
The vennerable life of the dea...Precisely, Bryden!<br /><br />The vennerable life of the dear old Communion could well be reconvenned by the use of simple Venn diagrams charting the way forward for the wayward.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-5467113485526383682013-10-29T12:43:35.738+13:002013-10-29T12:43:35.738+13:00First there was Henry Venn the elder (1725-97), fo...First there was Henry Venn the elder (1725-97), founder of the Clapham sect, and father of John Venn the elder, who himself was the father of another Henry Venn, the father of the final John Venn, popularizer of the diagrams that eventually bore his name (he did not exactly invent them; at least, so claimed my maths teacher at school when we were introduced to set theory).<br /><br />Does your post Peter therefore convey a subtext about how GAFCON might renew both Christian mission and Anglican church life in the 21st C?!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-86070999267867800612013-10-29T12:36:32.066+13:002013-10-29T12:36:32.066+13:00Dear Ron
I am not posting a comment by you which (...Dear Ron<br />I am not posting a comment by you which (a) mixes up Julian Mann a north of England CofE cleric with Julian Dobbs a bishop in CANA/ACNA/Nigeria; (b) makes a judgement about a commenter here.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-69214119032879080702013-10-29T10:12:17.881+13:002013-10-29T10:12:17.881+13:00Peter Ould is an activist in UK who has long urged...Peter Ould is an activist in UK who has long urged evangelicals to remain in the Church of England, even when he sympathises with their disagreements with liberal influences in the church hierarchy. Peter has now for the first time advocated realignment, and foreshadowed that it should be with Gafcon, if the CofE proceeds with plans to bless same sex relationships. See his leading article, "The Path after Pilling": http://www.peter-ould.net/<br /><br />Julian Mann is another evangelical who up until recently has maintained that orthodox evangelicals should remain under the oversight of CofE bishops. However, he has now openly advocated realignment under Gafcon: cranmercurate.blogspot.com. <br /><br />Realignment under Gafcon won't necessarily mean leaving the CofE. The way it is structured, congregations could remain part of CofE for decades or generations, whilst having nothing to do with the local CofE bishop, and indeed accepting oversight from a non-CofE bishop.MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33305453310975567942013-10-29T10:04:47.668+13:002013-10-29T10:04:47.668+13:00"I'm also a little concerned that the sta..."I'm also a little concerned that the staffing and funding they are proposing for GFCA intimates a move towards a third Venn diagram, where the GAFCON and Communion circles are entirely separate."<br /><br />I think you can be confident that the Anglican Communion Office will be permitted no input or participation in Gafcon finances whatsoever. <br /><br />But that does not affect whether Gafcon members are also members of the Anglican Communion - most are, and they clearly intend to remain so. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-69353182303947055652013-10-29T07:50:13.774+13:002013-10-29T07:50:13.774+13:00With the removal of content from most of the NZ Cu...With the removal of content from most of the NZ Curriculum (let's not get sidetracked with the effect of this philosophy on the church's teaching, study, and formation here!) and specifically the more than halving of the content in mathematics and the removal of understanding of Venn Diagrams as part of that (NB MichaelA) it is understandable why only one Kiwi has picked up Peter's challenge to comment. <br /><br />Blessings<br /><br />Boscoliturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40427251184686710602013-10-28T22:45:57.512+13:002013-10-28T22:45:57.512+13:00The Society for Venn Diagram Appreciation has just...The Society for Venn Diagram Appreciation has just made you a life member. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-37300155468718730132013-10-28T22:25:56.362+13:002013-10-28T22:25:56.362+13:00Hi Peter,
As a non-Kiwi I won't comment on ACA...Hi Peter,<br />As a non-Kiwi I won't comment on ACANZP at all, but rather on the strategy for the path ahead. As well as the work of God's Spirit, GFCA needs a strategy if they want the movement to grow among the Anglican Communion so it looks like your 1st diagram. Churches like TEC and ACC are never going to be part of it, but other national churches and dioceses may be persuaded if GFCA shows it isn't just an exclusive evangelicals club with schismatic inclincations, but an Anglican movement for the renewal of the church based on solid Anglican Scriptural foundations. <br />The communique seems to me to be about providing a lifeboat for faithful churches in faithless dioceses/national churches, strengthening the faith of those within the GAFCON circle and growing the GAFCON circle through evangelism and church planting - all great things. It would also be useful to invest some time in persuading orthodox churches and dioceses within the Communion not yet in the GAFCON fold that the movement will help them experience renewal and guard the future of the Communion.<br />I'm also a little concerned that the staffing and funding they are proposing for GFCA intimates a move towards a third Venn diagram, where the GAFCON and Communion circles are entirely separate. Andrew Reidnoreply@blogger.com