tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post3760896935895799468..comments2024-03-29T17:55:30.203+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Anglican Assessment of Papa FrancisPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10229809722767577092013-03-17T20:36:05.960+13:002013-03-17T20:36:05.960+13:00Just to get back to the person of Pope Francis, ra...Just to get back to the person of Pope Francis, rather than Anglican/RC issues, there has been a great deal of concern about his actions (or lack of them) during the military junta in Argentina. This article from New Republic seems to me to be the only one that presents any hard evidence/testimony, rather than relying on unsubstantiated allegations.<br />It is also reasonably balanced, rather than starting from a pro or anti position.<br />http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112656/pope-francis-and-argentinas-dirty-war-what-he-knew#Andrew Reidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-37989526444287657772013-03-17T14:46:35.872+13:002013-03-17T14:46:35.872+13:00Martin, I gather you have not heard much evangelic...Martin, I gather you have not heard much evangelical preaching. I have, and it doesn't shy away at all from the passage you seem to be referring to. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-42850439411647466332013-03-17T14:43:53.872+13:002013-03-17T14:43:53.872+13:00Glad to see you agree with me, Fr Ron!Glad to see you agree with me, Fr Ron!MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-79929609590847379872013-03-16T22:40:12.259+13:002013-03-16T22:40:12.259+13:00"Calvinism is founded upon the doctrine that ..."Calvinism is founded upon the doctrine that we are ALL sinners saved by grace alone. The Roman church teaches that we are saved by works of righteousness as well as grace."<br /><br />Well, no, not exactly - but it fudges the difference between justification and sanctification (as that renowned Anglican Tom Wright now seems to be doing, if I can decipher his prolix paragraphs), and its popular piety is indeed one of rewards for good deeds - which is exactly how most 'Christian' people today still think of 'heaven'. Yet Christ does teach there are rewards for obedience ('ten cities, five cities, one city'), which evangelical preaching often shies away from teaching about.<br /><br />MartinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-28159662435402346662013-03-16T17:31:45.236+13:002013-03-16T17:31:45.236+13:00"the Articles of Religion as embodying the tr..."the Articles of Religion as embodying the true principles of Anglican doctrine, together with the Book of Common Prayer and the Edwardian Ordinal. For example, this is written into the constitution of the Anglican Church of Australia."<br /> - MichaelA -<br /><br />See what I mean? No other comment!<br /><br /> Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-79092516453259552332013-03-16T16:54:51.936+13:002013-03-16T16:54:51.936+13:00"May I step in and ask two questions of the &..."May I step in and ask two questions of the 'unconditional welcomers'?<br />1. Would you yourself go to Rome?<br />2. Would you yourself send someone to Rome in the form of your local RC congregation?"<br /><br />My answer to 1 is "Of course not". My answer to 2 is "In Sydney, of course not. In the USA, quite possibly. If there were no faithful Anglican churches within reach, I would much rather that person be at a Roman Catholic Church (if run by a faithful priest) than at a TEC church. TEC is headed by a woman who denies the necessity of Christ's saving work, and its bishops include such luminaries as Shannon Johnston who has just welcomed and recommended the wierd pagan John Dominic Crossan."<br /><br />In any case, its not a matter of ""unconditional welcoming": When the Pope teaches something that is in accordance with sound scriptural doctrine, I will applaud it. If he teaches something else, I will oppose it. Just like I do with everyone. MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-34633776543891374442013-03-16T16:42:34.508+13:002013-03-16T16:42:34.508+13:00"Perhaps Joshua can now see why very few Angl..."Perhaps Joshua can now see why very few Anglicans care to go back to the 'certitude' of the 39 artifacts. We have moved on. Hurry, Joshua, you may just get left behind!"<br /><br />Actually, Fr Ron, the vast majority of Anglicans in the world subscribe to the Articles of <br />Religion as embodying the true principles of Anglican doctrine, together with the Book of Common Prayer and the Edwardian Ordinal. For example, this is written into the constitution of the Anglican Church of Australia. <br /><br />So hurry up, Ron, you may have already been left behind!<br /><br />I would have thought a more credible response you could have given to Josh was to point out the wording of Article 19: "...so also the Church of Rome hath erred...". The Articles disagree with Rome about some things (as do you) but they still refer to it as a "church". <br /><br />From an Anglican perspective (including a reformed evangelical anglican perspective), the RCC is still a church, even when we disagree with it.MichaelAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-2829462435064972352013-03-16T14:52:38.352+13:002013-03-16T14:52:38.352+13:00Constantly telling others that they lack humility ...Constantly telling others that they lack humility is an expression of self-righteous judgementalism.<br /><br />Calvinism is founded upon the doctrine that we are ALL sinners saved by grace alone. The Roman church teaches that we are saved by works of righteousness as well as grace.<br /><br />The former is Biblical, the second is not.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61191560283070468372013-03-16T11:53:11.279+13:002013-03-16T11:53:11.279+13:00I, too, noted John's (Richardson's) query ...I, too, noted John's (Richardson's) query about whether, or not, any of us could recommend anyone to the ministry of the Roman Catholic Church. I see this as an unwillingness to believe that 'ALL of us' are Sinners - redeemed by Christ. none of us has the exclusive knowledge of salvation, which is: 'Hid, with Christ, in God'.<br /><br />A wee bit more humility about our own hold on salvation would more befit the role of an evangelist.<br /><br />Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison! Perhaps the assumed title of the new Pope; Francis I, might help us all to understand humility & graceFather Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-13278226972679647982013-03-16T06:30:14.874+13:002013-03-16T06:30:14.874+13:00Hi John,
I myself go quite close to Rome (I am mar...Hi John,<br />I myself go quite close to Rome (I am married into a Catholic family, am often at Mass, though not - of course - receiving the elements, and have always had, as a minister in local ministers' associations and other groups, warm, friendly relationships with Roman Catholic churches, including sharing happily in Ash Wednesday services). There is much to admire in the ordinary parish life of Romanism, with its joy in the Lord, love for people, and faithfulness to the gospel (leaning towards the four gospels and their emphasis on following, than towards Paul and his emphasis on saving faith).<br /><br />So I look forward, with each new pope to signs of rapprochement in Christ between our divided churches.<br /><br />Would I send someone to my local Roman congregation? Absolutely. Especially if that person were Roman in background and clearly most comfortable in a Roman church. Our local priest is brilliant and one of the most godly men I have ever come across!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-42074787872642496412013-03-16T06:23:35.433+13:002013-03-16T06:23:35.433+13:00Comment from Ron (minus the original last sentence...Comment from Ron (minus the original last sentence, Ron, which sentence is often the undoing of your comments!):<br /><br />I think Joshua yearns for the 16th century way of life, without any understanding, at all, of the remaining vlidity of all the other Catholic and Orthdox strands of the Church - of both East and West.<br /><br />Calvinism is just one tiny little aspect of the Christian endeavour - hopelessly outnumbered by millions of believing Christians of other Churches. The Body of Christ contains us all. That is my belief.<br /><br />Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-80763147200902844092013-03-15T22:47:12.435+13:002013-03-15T22:47:12.435+13:00May I step in and ask two questions of the 'un...May I step in and ask two questions of the 'unconditional welcomers'?<br /><br />1. Would you yourself go to Rome?<br /><br />2. Would you yourself send someone to Rome in the form of your local RC congregation?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03590979027426082714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-4127292305297011922013-03-15T22:34:07.752+13:002013-03-15T22:34:07.752+13:00Perhaps Joshua can now see why very few Anglicans ...Perhaps Joshua can now see why very few Anglicans care to go back to the 'certitude' of the 39 artifacts. We have moved on. Hurry, Joshua, you may just get left behind!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-80530322979338590862013-03-15T20:54:44.414+13:002013-03-15T20:54:44.414+13:00Hi Joshua,
The questions I ask are whether the pop...Hi Joshua,<br />The questions I ask are whether the pope loves the Lord Jesus and follows him (as far as I can see he does), has Rome engaged in any revision of its understanding of what it believes (its written canons notwithstanding), as represented by various Anglican-Roman, Lutheran-Roman documents (as far as I can see, they have), have Anglicans come to appreciate aspects of modern Romanism so we regret the tone of some of the 39A (many of us have), am I living in the 16th century (no)?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43810985978969052862013-03-15T17:20:31.373+13:002013-03-15T17:20:31.373+13:00David Ould on his blog asks a very pertinent quest...David Ould on his blog asks a very pertinent question:<br /><br />There are ways and means of welcoming Francis’ election charitably and generously without giving up the game. Or was the Reformation all just a bit of fuss about nothing?Joshua Bovishttp://creideamhamhain.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-24136055680428195012013-03-15T17:16:29.616+13:002013-03-15T17:16:29.616+13:00Why is this the question being asked?
Do you real...Why is this the question being asked?<br /><br />Do you really seriously think that the Magisterium would elect a Cardinal to the Papacy if he did not uphold the official doctrines of the RCC - the one in the same church that anathematises those who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus?<br /><br />Canon 14.<br />If anyone says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified, or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema.<br /><br />Canon 24.<br />If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema<br /><br />The Pope is a gently humble man, but do you think as Pontiff he can be divorced from the doctrine and theology of Rome? Unless of course this new Pope actually does not believe the official teachings of the very church he has been elected to lead?<br /><br />also remember our Articles? And what they say about the RCC?<br /><br />Article 19, which says the Church of Rome has erred<br />Article 22, which says the Romish doctrines of purgatory, of adoration of images or relics and of prayer to the saints are repugnant to the word of God<br />Article 28, which declares that transubstantiation is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, and opposes the reservation or adoration of the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper<br />Article 31, which says that “the sacrifices of masses, in which it was commonly said the priest did offer Christ for the quick and dead, to have remission of pain and guilt, were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceit”<br />Article 32, which opposes Rome’s demand for priestly celibacy.<br /><br />Here are some words from JC Ryle:<br /><br />Now what shall we say to all this? Nine times over the Thirty-nine Articles condemn, in plain and unmistakable language, the leading doctrines of the Church of Rome, and declare in favour of what must be called Protestant views. And yet men dare to tell us that we Evangelical clergymen have no right to denounce Popery, — that it is very wrong and very uncharitable to be so hot in favour of Protestantism, — that Romanism is a pretty good sort of thing, — and that by making such a piece of work about Popery, and Protestantism, and Ritualism, and semi-Popery, we are only troubling the country and doing more harm than good. Well! I am content to point to the Thirty-nine Articles. There is my apology! There is my defence! I will take up no other ground at present. I will not say, as I might do, that Popery is an unscriptural system, which every free nation ought to dread, and every Bible-reading Christian of any nation ought to oppose. I simply point to the Thirty-nine Articles.<br />I ask any one to explain how any English clergyman can be acting consistently, if he does not oppose, denounce, expose, and resist Popery in every shape, either within the Church or without. Other Christians may do as they please, and countenance Popery if they like. But so long as the Articles stand unrepealed and unaltered, it is the bounden duty of every clergyman of the Church of England to oppose Popery.<br />Joshua Bovishttp://creideamhamhain.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-5915811985720495502013-03-15T15:45:53.937+13:002013-03-15T15:45:53.937+13:00Are you saying, Joshua, that you have reason to be...Are you saying, Joshua, that you have reason to believe that the Pope is not a saved Christian?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-66149270863223564912013-03-15T14:40:08.640+13:002013-03-15T14:40:08.640+13:00Peter,
I find the comments by ++Venables to be pr...Peter,<br /><br />I find the comments by ++Venables to be problematic. The problem with public support and affirmation for the Pope is that the differences between Protestant Christianity and Roman Catholicism are too central – the whole issue of how we are saved cannot be glossed over. To say, suggest, imply or assume publicly that the Pope is a brother in Christ is saying that these differences are adiaphora as in the end do not impede our fellowship. It is unhelpful as it is confusing.Joshua Bovishttp://creideamhamhain.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60843035118137911162013-03-14T23:31:14.343+13:002013-03-14T23:31:14.343+13:00The fact that this new Pastor Pastorum has chosen ...The fact that this new Pastor Pastorum has chosen the name of 'Francis', is an augury of his trajectory as Pope. Whatever his understanding of the Bible - Word in The Book - he seems to be, rather, Christo-centric - centred on The Word made flesh - not just words but deeds, in his attitude towards the poor and the disenfranchised.<br /><br />For Pope Francis, I have llttle doubt that the Daily Mass will equip him for the ministry to which Jesus is calling him. After the example of Jesus and Francis, he will no doubt give better treatment to the 'lepers' of this world than sometimes the Church is wont to do.<br /><br />Deo gratias! May God richly bless him!Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.com.noreply@blogger.com