tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post3772546459161717910..comments2024-03-28T22:29:52.666+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: If we love Polynesia, we will not dismember themPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-80382672420212503552014-05-11T13:15:01.349+12:002014-05-11T13:15:01.349+12:00It seems to me that - in terms of 'keeping par...It seems to me that - in terms of 'keeping parishes alive' - there should be a proper understanding of self-sufficiency, proportionate to membership. No matter how much money one pours into a project, if the local people do not support it, then it just may no be viable.<br /><br />Mission is something else, though. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-84268776841952185422014-05-09T17:01:20.665+12:002014-05-09T17:01:20.665+12:00Re your first para, Jean: yes,that is something Ma...Re your first para, Jean: yes,that is something Maori have tried to achieve in the past at GS. I am not quite sure of the status of that quest, e.g. is a report about it coming back to this Synod? Is the quest now superseded by the motions I am discussing here?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-52701480150858211752014-05-09T16:46:22.151+12:002014-05-09T16:46:22.151+12:00So a fair approach might be, assuming an agreement...So a fair approach might be, assuming an agreement on the amount Tikanga Maori currently receive, to allocate a percentage of the funds where they have total tino rangatiratanga over and the remaining percentage where they still apply and report for (so they have more freedom but also benefit in some of the spending from the perspectives of other Tikanga?)<br /><br />I guess in terms of the Pakeha Tikanga having other forms of income this also has to be considered in the light of the Pakeha Tikanga also having a mandate to which includes ministry to Maori (alongside of course all ethnicities). And this is great, especially how most clergy now often include the Te Reo in services, we just have to work on the songs! I know a considerable amount of time and effort went into running services at a local Maori Church in our area for many years until the church was closed but not before trying to get assistance/support from a local Marae to keep it alive.<br /><br />JeanJeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-24539861174209562852014-05-09T06:47:05.728+12:002014-05-09T06:47:05.728+12:00Hi Jean
As I understand the driving issues behind ...Hi Jean<br />As I understand the driving issues behind the motion they have this background:<br /><br />1. Distribution of the SJC Trust Board funding is undertaken on a reasonably equitable basis but there may be some continuing concern as to whether Maori ought to get a straight 50% of the funds (which is a tricky question to answer because on one analysis of the distribution they do get that, but another approach to it suggests they don't ...).<br />2. Even if we all agree that everything is fine and equitable re the distribution, there remains this difference between Maori and Pakeha: the distribution from the Trust is a huge proportion of all funds Tikanga Maori has available to them. (One Maori colleague once said to me, The Trust Board funding is our economy), whereas Pakeha have other sources of funding via diocesan trusts, which means that when Maori seek funding they have to negotiate with other Tikanga, do so annually (which is tiring re all the forms to fill in), and generally feel beholden to others whereas Pakeha also do that AND have sources of funding they need consult no one but themselves about, do not need to fill in forms to draw down on, and do not need to report back to themselves about usage (save, obviously, for audited annual accounts in accordance with the law of the land).<br /><br />That is, my sense is that Maori would like tino rangatiratanga over their 'share' of the SJC Trust Board funds (however that share is to be calculated) in a manner similar to the tino rangatiratanga which NZ pakeha dioceses enjoy over their own trusts.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-4257833795615933302014-05-08T16:35:08.556+12:002014-05-08T16:35:08.556+12:00Hi Peter
Thanks again for educating me!
I have a...Hi Peter<br /><br />Thanks again for educating me!<br /><br />I have always liked the idea of the three tikanga - I suppose because of the way it fits in with the idea of the trinity. One church, three bodies.<br /><br />I like the idea of Hui Amorangi being made into five distinct dioceses as well as enabling them to focus on their respective communities it would recognise the tribal differences within Maori culture. It would also give them more freedom to operate within their cultural parameters. I see no reason why these could not be funded in the same way as the Pakeha Diocese are.<br /><br />While reconginsing the Treaty I too would be saddened if the Polynesian Diocese were removed from the Maori and Pakeha. Recognising New Zealand very early on encouraged Pacifiic immigration, our association and oversight politically of Pacific nations both in Aid and Governance (now including Kiribati) and the origins of Maori from the Pacific Islands I think gives Pacific Christians a special place in our church.<br /><br />I like the idea of the trust funds being distributed by the three groups as this is to me would help maintain an association and unity between the Tikanga. In terms of Tino Rangitiratanga what is it specifically that Tikanga Maori feel they have been denied the right of decision or influence over in this area? (e.g. do they feel they have received less funding than what is fair or are there other concerns?)<br /><br />Education across Tikanga so we all can understand each other better would further boost our unity in Christ (this probably already happens). I think it would also especially help Maori who are participants (both lay and clergy) in Tikanga Pakeha. <br /><br />Jeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19355766069976809692014-05-08T10:13:13.931+12:002014-05-08T10:13:13.931+12:00I am so saddened whenever this issue raises its he...I am so saddened whenever this issue raises its head, that the Anglican church here in New Zealand has bought into the "spirit of the age" by setting up ethnicity based decision-rights instead of the Spirit of Christ, which as Chris has already noted is one of unity as children of the same Father, and where there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, Greek nor Jew.<br /><br />Until this fundamental mistake is reversed, then each decision will lead to a growing sense of embitterment as the sense of entitlement of each party is infringed.<br /><br />MaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72995899327011783632014-05-08T07:25:39.640+12:002014-05-08T07:25:39.640+12:00Hi Jean
Technically there is one Maori diocese whi...Hi Jean<br />Technically there is one Maori diocese which works via five distinct hui amorangi. The hui amorangi have increasingly acted as though they are autonomous dioceses and interestingly this year at GS the hui amorangi for the South Island is seeking a change of name which will include the word 'Diocese'.<br /><br />Tikanga Pasefika is directly equivalent to the Diocese of Polynesia (save for a few congregations which meet within Aotearoa NZ). Just one diocese though occasionally talk has arisen about the Archdeaconry of Tonga becoming a separate diocese within Tikanga Pasefika.<br /><br />Pakeha Dioceses' trust funds tend to come from legacies but a variation (I suppose) in the Diocese of Chch is that some funds could be traced back to the original 'Anglican settlement' of Canterbury. A variation on legacies would be funds arising from the sale of redundant church land and buildings (though often those funds will be tagged for the parish in which that property lies).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75297284446251183862014-05-08T05:33:47.258+12:002014-05-08T05:33:47.258+12:00Hi Peter
That is clear thanks. Just a few more ...Hi Peter <br /><br />That is clear thanks. Just a few more questions.<br /><br />I assume then the Maori and Pasifika Tikanga have seperate diocese? If so are they one diocese or many?<br /><br />Do the other funds for Pakeha diocese come from the likes of legacies?<br /><br />Cheers<br />JeanJeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-69146438345139196422014-05-07T18:57:24.230+12:002014-05-07T18:57:24.230+12:00Hi Jean
All distribution of St John's College ...Hi Jean<br />All distribution of St John's College Trust funds is governed and advised by three tikanga bodies with equal representation from each tikanga.<br /><br />Once the money is received 'down the line' e.g. in a diocese, then the diocese gets on and uses it according to their application, and reports back up the line on its use in terms of the application.<br /><br />Pakeha dioceses also have separate trust funds they can draw on both for general and for educational purposes. But the funds vary from diocese to diocese as some over the years have been better endowed than others.<br /><br />Ask a question if that is not clear as potentially a longer explanation could be given!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-6465415103730064972014-05-07T16:37:57.020+12:002014-05-07T16:37:57.020+12:00Hi Peter
You say funds are distributed to each di...Hi Peter<br /><br />You say funds are distributed to each diocese for spending, does each diocese mean the money is available to support all three tikanga in that diocese or do the three groups operate separetly? If so is the only way for the Maori and Pasifika Tikanga to gain access to funds through the joint decision making process? And if so does the meeting where it is decided if funds are allocated have equal representation of all parties?<br /><br />Once again excuse my ignorance, who me an Anglican?<br /><br />Cheers, JeanJeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-64102136040963660842014-05-07T13:01:48.521+12:002014-05-07T13:01:48.521+12:00Thanks Peter for raising again this serious matter...Thanks Peter for raising again this serious matter, one that has been simmering for a few years now.<br /><br />Yes; Acts of Parliament might just be the just and necessary way forward!Bryden Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15619512328964399016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-38509670351553928542014-05-07T11:36:13.524+12:002014-05-07T11:36:13.524+12:00Having lived and worked in Polynesia - during the ...Having lived and worked in Polynesia - during the reign of Bishop John-Charles Vockler, when Archbishop Winston Halapua was still a student - I am personally aware of how important is the connection between our New Zealand Church and the Diocese of Polynesia. To cut them off from us would be a drastic and infelicitous action.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-71658863468445116842014-05-07T09:11:45.645+12:002014-05-07T09:11:45.645+12:00fixer: John 17:20 - 'through their word' (...fixer: John 17:20 - 'through their word' (not words, apologies - details matter :) )Chris Sparknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-78030883489017547842014-05-07T09:05:35.394+12:002014-05-07T09:05:35.394+12:00On the whole this is new to me, but the spirit of ...On the whole this is new to me, but the spirit of it does worry me, because of money being (apparently) at the heart of it, and an assertion of 'our rights' seems to me somewhat un-gospel feeling, the opposite of Phil 2. <br />I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I am pleased that there is unrest at the motion.<br /> <br />Our oneness (in the terms of John 17) is in being 'those who believe in [Christ] through [the apostles'] words (verse 20), and are thereby made one in Christ, deeply. This of course assumes we are truly one as a result of the belief in the apostles' words, but in the light of that it is a powerful and much deeper reality, even than the real issues of a taonga and tino rangatiratanga.Chris Sparknoreply@blogger.com