tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post3777285710171373220..comments2024-03-29T06:58:28.383+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Shadow Synod?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-14834621166387651612016-09-05T08:48:12.287+12:002016-09-05T08:48:12.287+12:00Now, for a bit of light relief. No, Nick,. I do no...Now, for a bit of light relief. No, Nick,. I do not believe that Roman Catholics in general have more in common with the Baptists that with Anglo-Catholics. Their theology of the Eucharist, and of Adult-only Baptism, is very different. But, perhaps you don't know either enough Anglo-Catholics or even Baptists, Agape!<br /><br />Brian, your answer to my question - as to the veracity of M.M.'s calling to be an Apostle - is not adequately dealt with by your muddying of the waters with the calling of Matthias as a replacement for Judas. M.M. didn't just replace someone, she was directly called and commissioned by Jesus during one of his post-Resurrection appearances. <br /><br />I feel that you may still be resisting the possibility/probability that Jesus intended - post Resurrectiuon - to INLCLUDE a WOMAN among his Apostles. Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55540868749545314802016-09-05T00:07:17.887+12:002016-09-05T00:07:17.887+12:00"Do you not, then, believe that Mary Magdalen..."Do you not, then, believe that Mary Magdalene was actually sent or commissioned by Jesus to tell the male Apostles that He was now risen from the dead? A pretty important sending and commissioning of M.M. - right there in the Scriptures?"<br /><br />Why should I doubt that? It's there in the Gospels, which I believe are historically trustworthy.<br /><br />"Or is that one bit of the Scriptures you just can't believe to be authentic?"<br /><br />Why do ask that? Have I ever indicated I hold a liberal, Jesus-Seminar-like view of the Gospels?<br /><br />"One of the most important messages of the Gospel is that of Jesus, Risen from the dead. And Mary was its first proclaimer - sent by Jesus Himself."<br /><br />Yes - but what follows in the days and weeks ahead? Does she take Judas's place among the Twelve? No. That calling went to Matthias.BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55713316543354588662016-09-04T22:50:39.160+12:002016-09-04T22:50:39.160+12:00Peter; it's we who are slack. The NZ bishops (...Peter; it's we who are slack. The NZ bishops (as they can under canon law) transferred the assumption to the Sunday. <br /><br />No offence to Baptists; I think Romans have more in common with them than Anglo-Catholics.<br /><br />NickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70551939434137329722016-09-04T22:42:17.578+12:002016-09-04T22:42:17.578+12:00Andrei, do you believe that Jesus - biologically m...Andrei, do you believe that Jesus - biologically male - represented only the male of the species at his Incarnation. Would that not preclude his redemption of the female of the species? My (simple but logical) belief, is that Jesus represented the whole of humanity in his Incarnate presence in this world, This leads to a much larger and more inclusive understanding of human redemption by Christ, who represents ALL humanity, not just the male of the species. This may explain his desire - like a mother hen - to gather her chicks under her wings.Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41986459216008679282016-09-04T22:37:47.578+12:002016-09-04T22:37:47.578+12:00Yes, I recall that point, Nick.
I wonder if we Kiw...Yes, I recall that point, Nick.<br />I wonder if we Kiwis inherently think Aussies might be a bit slack?<br /><br />PS I think "baptist"s like to be spelled "Baptist"<br /><br />:)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-47864468656983303632016-09-04T22:29:12.364+12:002016-09-04T22:29:12.364+12:00Peter; a small point for Fr Ron which I have point...Peter; a small point for Fr Ron which I have pointed out on an earlier thread. The Assumption ( a holy day of obligation for Romans not some random feast day) was on a Monday. Fr Ron went to a Cathedral in Cairns the day before and was surprised the holy day of obligation was not celebrated. Had he gone to mass on the Monday (the proper day), he would not have been surprised. Sometimes I wonder how Catholic Anglo Catholics really are when any baptist could search our calendar on the net.<br /><br />NickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-91116807732070384652016-09-04T22:09:53.783+12:002016-09-04T22:09:53.783+12:00Dear Brian, I hope you miight look at my blog, in ...Dear Brian, I hope you miight look at my blog, in order to read tonight's sermon at SMAA by an English Anglican theologian and the Precentor of Christ Church, Oxford, The Revd. John Paton. In it he speaks about the root meaning of the Greek word 'Apostello', virtually 'Being Sent or Commissioned'.<br /><br />Do you not, then, believe that Mary Magdalene was actually sent or commissioned by Jesus to tell the male Apostles that He was now risen from the dead? A pretty important sending and commissioning of M.M. - right there in the Scriptures? Or is that one bit of the Scriptures you just can't believe to be authentic? One of the most important messages of the Gospel is that of Jesus, Risen from the dead. And Mary was its first proclaimer - sent by Jesus Himself.<br /><br /> Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-2511299651161801382016-09-04T21:38:48.218+12:002016-09-04T21:38:48.218+12:00Hi Andrei at 2.35 pm
AFL? Collingwood?
A world w...Hi Andrei at 2.35 pm<br /><br />AFL? Collingwood?<br /><br />A world without All Blacks?<br /><br />And, ballet?<br /><br />Does any right thinking bloke want to live in this world?<br /><br />:)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-77584065343179537192016-09-04T20:41:49.682+12:002016-09-04T20:41:49.682+12:00Hi Brian and Andrei
You say gender matters for som...Hi Brian and Andrei<br />You say gender matters for some ministries but not for others.<br />Fair enough because you have some weighty arguments and history on your side.<br />But if you accept that gender does not matter for some ministries then you are so far apart from me when I say it does not matter for any ministry: the Spirit of God is poured out on men and women!<br />Gender distinction matters in a number of important matters of human life which I firmly uphold: men to be husbands and fathers, women to be wives and mothers. But I do not see that gender distinction matters in the church of God.<br />Nor do I see that the argument for gender distinction mattering stands up to much scrutiny when it distinguishes "priesthood" from "ministry" or "representing Christ the male" from "representing Christ".<br />Yes, Christ came as a male and not as a female but his disciples were both male and female and to none of the women did he say that they might not represent him to others. Such as the Samaritan woman at the well did to her own people!<br />It seems odd on the day of the canonization of Mother Teresa (which, of course, I do not believe in!) that in catholic thinking a woman can be a canonized saint but not a canonical priest. Dare anyone say that Mother Teresa was not Christ to those to whom she ministered?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-32752778072334836442016-09-04T20:21:00.519+12:002016-09-04T20:21:00.519+12:00What if Brian function doesn't take precedent ...What if Brian function doesn't take precedent over created identity.<br /><br />In Dr Suess's words, "What if, just maybe.." Esther being born for 'such a time and role as was hers' as leader for and hope of the Jewish people, was beneficial because of her created identity as a woman of character?<br /><br />Jeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-86756620179380146932016-09-04T20:02:33.679+12:002016-09-04T20:02:33.679+12:00Fr Ron & Brian re Jewish law playing a part in...Fr Ron & Brian re Jewish law playing a part in the choosing of the 12 - I suppose one cannot ever know for sure except by divine revelation, however, both the yes they were and the no they weren't could be correct. While Jesus opposed some of the cultural laws or I like to think of it as re-configuring them in preparation for the coming of the Kingdom, there are also many examples whereby he was loyal to Jewish laws such as observing feast days.<br /><br />So the reason for choosing the twelve apostles could be due to Jesus's adherence to Jewish law at the time, and representative of the 12 tribes of Israel, or it could be Jesus intentionally choosing men to model the leadership pattern of his church from this time forth.<br /><br />Andrei, I agree with complementarism in principle - men are indeed a different breed altogether, always looking for the easiest way to acheive something! However, experience dictates to me gender traits while sometimes they do, they do not aways co-relate with roles or hobbies. Say my brother cooks for his family and enjoys it more than his wife. And my female accountant friend loves car racing. <br /><br />In truth, while I have been led to the realisation of the transformation wrought through the coming of the Holy Spirit and the fulfillment of the law, and an understanding of the priesthood of all believers; the strongest conviction on this issue for me has being the witnessing the Ministry of a few women, called to leadership through direct encounters with the Holy Spirit, and the subsequent fruit produced through their service to Christ. One being the Rev'd Junko Preston, a Japanese Kiwi. Her story is one of being called into her role for a very specific purpose.<br /><br />In all things if I am concerned about a trend in the church en-mass or false teaching it is when I encounter viewpoints denying the ressurrection of Christ or belief's of all religions leading to God or denying the divinity of Jesus.<br /><br />Re the actual article reference to this post and the use of equality. Sometimes I think the moral relativism that has developed in certain societies creates confusion around the application and understanding of ideas. Whereas oringinally the application of equality held a moral quality, it is now often applied while ignoring any moral understanding; such as prostitution as a profession should be as equally valid as any other (e.g. a denial of their being anything potentially harmful in the practice of prostitution itself either to the women involved or society in general). What seems to be increasingly lost is the moral or value or ethical based compass, and why not if people believe there is no higher point of reference than what they think is right. Such relativity may be less likely to develop in non-Christian communities where the sense of family duties and expectations are more engrained than in the current western world.Jeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33948753169806908012016-09-04T18:01:36.390+12:002016-09-04T18:01:36.390+12:00"And I don't think men and women are inte..."And I don't think men and women are interchangeable - I think they are complementary - Some things men do better than women and vice versa and some things are impossible for a man that a woman can do. This is undeniable."<br /><br />This is the key point which Peter is at pains to deny. If function takes precedence over created identity, then gender (actually: sex) doesn't matter (and even personal Christian faith isn't necessary provided 'the job is done'). It is only one step from this to declare that divinely-created maleness or femaleness is of no significance in itself - and only one step from this to deny that marriage is a divine institution of male-female relatedness but a volitional affection of any kind (and we are back in the pagan world of Plato's 'Symposium').<br /><br />The logic of the modern secular, post-Christian world is easy to follow, even if the rapidity with which it happened came as a surprise to many of us. BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89111010974014638972016-09-04T14:35:14.709+12:002016-09-04T14:35:14.709+12:00It is not a denial of gender to ask whether gender...<i>It is not a denial of gender to ask whether gender is crucial to a ministry,</i><br /><br />Here you conflate "ministry" with ordained Priesthood - the two are not synonymous<br /><br />Throughout the history of the Church women have been heavily involved in the ministry<br /><br />The title "Ëqual to the Apostles"has been applied to many women - some will be on your Anglican Calendar perhaps other not - Nino baptizer of the Georgians is on the RC Calendar so maybe the Anglican one for example. <br /><br />I think that when the Priest consecrates the Eucharist he stands in the place of Christ who was unequivocally a man<br /><br />And I don't think men and women are interchangeable - I think they are complementary - Some things men do better than women and vice versa and some things are impossible for a man that a woman can do. This is undeniable<br /><br />The Bible is full of gender symbolism "Christ the Bridegroom of the Church" for example.<br /><br /><i>"On the question of priorities: I live in the Western world, God's life in me and in my church is incarnate in that same Western world. I am happy to work with God on being the church and sharing the gospel in that Western world where women and men relate differently to other worlds."</i><br /><br />I wonder if that is really true outside the Parnell bubble - I see no sign of it in my kids or their friends - there are some troubled people that's for sure and the Church needs to minister to them, that's for sure as well but focussing on a particular issue at the expense of the vast majority...<br /><br />My eldest daughter rang me for Father's day last night. About now she is going into the MCG with her Husband to cheer Collingwood against Melbourne - she is really excited because for her birthday a couple of weeks back her husband bought her tickets for the Ballet - its a Ballet about Nijinsky performed by the Royal Australian Ballet - this is what she told me in our conversation and this is true love on display as men relate to women and accommodate themselves to each other :) Andreinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-51340465256083977032016-09-04T13:10:33.716+12:002016-09-04T13:10:33.716+12:00Hi Andrei
It is not a denial of gender to ask whet...Hi Andrei<br />It is not a denial of gender to ask whether gender is crucial to a ministry, nor if, in the end, we conclude that gender is not crucial to a role.<br />There are many roles for which gender is not crucial!<br /><br />On the question of priorities: I live in the Western world, God's life in me and in my church is incarnate in that same Western world. I am happy to work with God on being the church and sharing the gospel in that Western world where women and men relate differently to other worlds.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-88699621156568914692016-09-04T13:03:16.782+12:002016-09-04T13:03:16.782+12:00... can you guarantee that development through dee...<i>... can you guarantee that development through deeper insight will not - albeit over the next 200 hundred years - not yield to the inclusion of women in that continuation?</i><br /><br />The only thing we can guarantee is that the Church will persist until Christ's return because he told us so - and much else besides. There are some fairly heavy duty warnings about apostasy and false prophets in the Bible<br /><br />But this denial of gender thing is a post Christian heresy that only afflicts North America and North Western Europe and those places whose culture is derived from them - most of the world sees things differently.<br /><br />The Christians of the Middle East and North Africa <a href="http://d.christiantoday.com/en/full/34018/fadi-3.jpg?w=760&h=570&l=50&t=40" rel="nofollow">have much more pressing concerns</a> than the provision of transgender toilets, for example. But for now they persist in the full life of the Church.<br /><br />There are nearly 2000 listed protestant denominations, new ones appear weekly while others fade away<br /><br />But you know the places where the Church. (whether it be Roman Catholic, Anglican or Orthodox in flavour) is robust, dynamic and growing and you know where it is in trouble and that might give you a hint to where your priorities should lie and where blind alleys have been gone down<br /> <br /><br /> Andreinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-62657638755628675372016-09-04T09:23:28.988+12:002016-09-04T09:23:28.988+12:00Hi Brian,
Your summation is spot on.Commenting on...Hi Brian,<br /><br />Your summation is spot on.Commenting on the influence Hegel had on Protestant theology, Bertram Russel wrote:"Hegel thought that if enough was known about a thing to distinguish it from other things,then all of it's properties could be inferred by logic.This was a mistake,and from that mistake arose the whole imposing edifice of his system.This illustrates an important truth,namely,that the worse your logic,the more interesting the consequences to which it gives rise." <br /><br /> Cheers,Glen.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-78817115973523908412016-09-04T08:46:31.653+12:002016-09-04T08:46:31.653+12:00Dear Commenters,
The catholic/Catholic tradition i...Dear Commenters,<br />The catholic/Catholic tradition is both firm, apparently immutable and capable of development through deeper insight.<br /><br />As I understand that tradition the claim that development through deeper insight is possible has led to (e.g.) teachings such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption/Dormition of Mary.<br /><br />My question to those who hold fast to the immutability of the tradition re male episcopacy/priesthood as continuation of male apostles is this: can you guarantee that development through deeper insight will not - albeit over the next 200 hundred years - not yield to the inclusion of women in that continuation?<br /><br />the deeper insight would be that the calling of God and gifting of God through the Spirit is to men and women (so Acts 2, 1 Corinthians 12, etc);<br />the development would reach back into the tradition even as it promoted change by re-finding and re-evaluating the significance of the apostleship of Mary and of Junia.<br /><br />If so, then Anglo-Catholics will simply have reached that insight chronologically ahead of their Roman counterparts. I accept that such development might never take place in the span of human history within Eastern Orthodoxy.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-79057908824382383942016-09-04T08:44:04.441+12:002016-09-04T08:44:04.441+12:00Ron, I am not a Roman Catholic but an Anglican pri...Ron, I am not a Roman Catholic but an Anglican priest. What Australian RCs do is not my concern. By Catholicism I mean my agreement with Athanasius, Nicene orthodoxy, the Cappadocians, and the Chalcedonian Symbol. The authority and normativity of Scripture as God's Word Written is an ancient Catholic doctrine. A 'low' view of Scripture is not a Catholic doctrine: trust me, I have twice read through Athanasius (De Verbi Incarnatione) in Greek and you couldn't put a tissue paper between his view of Scripture and Calvin's. 'Sola Scriptura' isn't a Protestant idea at all.<br />As for Mary Magdalene, I was correct in what I stated: the expression "apostolorum apostola" ("female apostle of the apostles" - 'apostolorum' is genitive masc. plural, not dative - yes, I teach Latin) comes from Thomas Aquinas, as Benedict XVI observed in this address:<br />http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070214.htmlBrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-14865968594092433352016-09-04T08:24:38.591+12:002016-09-04T08:24:38.591+12:00FWIW Fr Ron;
Both St Mary Magdalene and St Phot...FWIW Fr Ron; <br /><br /> Both St Mary Magdalene and St Photini, the Samaritan woman (her name means the enlightened one) are given the title ἰσαπόστολος, (isapóstolos) or равноапостольный, (ravnoapostol'ny) in the Eastern Church - that is Ëqual to the Apostles.<br /><br />Are such matters central to our Christian Faith, not at all - they are part of Christian tradition and heritage - how much value you place upon them is up to you and has no bearing upon your eventual fate on the Day of Judgment<br /><br />And nor are the liturgical practices of the Catholic Cathedral in Cairns<br /><br />The Liturgy is there to guide us in our worship, as well to grow us in the Faith but for many reasons it may not be possible to celebrate it strictly according to the rubrics and to focus on doing so is to miss the point entirely<br /><br />We work with what we have using it to the best of our abilities Andreinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-39442798230670873492016-09-04T07:38:08.183+12:002016-09-04T07:38:08.183+12:00Dear Brian as a (Roman) Catholic, have you not hea...Dear Brian as a (Roman) Catholic, have you not heard that the status of Mary Magdalene has fairly recently been overhauled by your Church, giving her a dignity she had not heretofore been given by Roman Catholics. Perhaps you should check up on the situation with your diocesan office.<br /><br />And, by the way; M.M. is not considered to be 'the Apostle OF the Apostles' but, because of the circumstances of her calling by Jesus, she is known as "The Apostle TO the Apostles. Agape.<br /><br />By the way, I was shocked in Cairns recently, to find that Mary, the mother of Jesus was not mentioned esspecially on the Sunday nearest to her 'Assumption' Feast day in St. Monica's R.C. Cathedral there. At the Main Sunday Mass, the only person at the altar, sans chasuble, was the local bishop. No incense, no Sung Responses by the Celebrant - nothing that we at SMAA, Christchurch, associate with the principle Mass on Sundays. What's happening to the Solemnity of the Catholic Faith in Australia, Brian?Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-30259071276031617592016-09-04T02:11:29.998+12:002016-09-04T02:11:29.998+12:00"Tell me Brian, are you being serious? Do you..."Tell me Brian, are you being serious? Do you really think that Jesus' choice of only male Apostles was entirely uninfluenced by the Jewish culture of that day"<br />- yes, I am quite serious as I am a Catholic Christian (not a liberal Protestant) who takes the deity of Christ and his sinlessness very seriously. "Cultural influence" cuts in several directions. It can mean 'going with the flow because you never think about it, or because you fear to oppose it, or because you agree with it'. I do not believe Jesus ever did anything he disagreed with out of fear of public opinion or because he didn't think clearly enough. I do not know what you believe about our Lord's sinlessness or knowledge (Charles Gore expounded his theory of kenoticism, of course, which I reject), but my view is biblical-patristic. There are cultural factors which are mere inheritances (such as our native language) which are ethically and religiously neutral, but we are not talking about this kind of "cultural influence". You seem to think Jesus can be explained as the cultural product of his time, but I take his Incarnation very seriously, and I have already pointed out several instances where his actions and words were notably counter-cultural. Jesus could easily, and often did, reject the "cultural" outlook of is time and place. <br /><br />"(which still seems to be the 'Sola Scriptura' culture, today - despite scriptural evidence to the contrary)."<br /><br />- Not at all. It is a universal Catholic Christian position and has been uniformly so from the First Century. Roman Catholic and Orthodox theologians understand exactly what I am saying. It is you who reject the historical Catholic consensus on the ministry, not I. But that's a perfectly understandable reflex of your theological liberalism. It has always seemed to me that "liberal Catholicism" takes its cue from a Neo-Hegelian view of history and progress - but I will take my stand with Kierkegaard against Hegel any day.<br /><br />"In any event, many in the Church today believe that Mary Magdalene was specially chosen by Jesus - post-Resurrection - to be the first (counter-cutural) female Apostle."<br /><br />Many people also believe they have been kidnapped by aliens, others believe in the Loch Ness monster. Millions more believe the Dan Brown novels and think that Mary of Magdala was married to Jesus and they sired the Royal House of France. Do you agree with them? If not, why not? Because these notions are fictional fancy? Just read the Bible for yourself: Mary of Magdala was NOT chosen by Jesus to be an "Apostle". As I said, it is simply medieval homiletics to call her 'the apostle of the apostles' - at the same time, in the High Middle Ages that a cult of the Magdalene began to sweep northern Europe. Like most medieval adventures in speculative thought - most especially in the Marianism of the High Middle Ages that we see in Dun Scotus and the invention of the Immaculate Conception - it has no or next to no biblical foundation at all. After John's Gospel we hear nothing at all of her in the post-Pentecost mission of the Church - which is what the Apostles were appointed to carry out. Why not? Er, because she wasn't an apostle. The only person Jesus directly chose to be an apostle after his earthly ministry was St Paul. <br /><br />BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-59007256251771630112016-09-03T21:28:54.818+12:002016-09-03T21:28:54.818+12:00Tell me Brian, are you being serious? Do you reall...Tell me Brian, are you being serious? Do you really think that Jesus' choice of only male Apostles was entirely uninfluenced by the Jewish culture of that day (which still seems to be the 'Sola Scriptura' culture, today - despite scriptural evidence to the contrary).<br /><br />In any event, many in the Church today believe that Mary Magdalene was specially chosen by Jesus - post-Resurrection - to be the first (counter-cutural) female Apostle. And, again, in common with many conservative males in today's Church, the male disciples - because of their cultural presuppositions - obviously had a problem with that, and had to prove for themselves that Jesus had risen!Father Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17062632692873621258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-52955203980044777942016-09-03T20:57:29.985+12:002016-09-03T20:57:29.985+12:00Hi Peter,
By way of clarification,I am not per se...Hi Peter,<br /><br />By way of clarification,I am not per se against woman leading Churches.My stance is simply, the quality of their leadership. In fact,the best of them would be much preferable to many men who hold positions in the ACANZP.<br /><br />My posting on 31/8/2016 related to what I thought was a bit of pick and mix theology by another commenter:".......is securely in the Pauline model(Gal 3/28).I was not for a moment suggesting that women should not speak in Church.<br /><br />And,again my post on Sept 1 was in relation to posted comment ,"It must be annoying to realize that the Holy Spirit may also be considered a "feminine" <br />attribute of God." My understanding is that the Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons of the Godhead.Him being considered,merely an" Attribute of God" sounds a mite close to Arianism for my liking.Also,thinking in gender terminology, in this regards,is a bit close to Pantheism and "God the mother of life" teaching; emulating out of TEC. It has led to some shocking outcomes there,which I would rather not spell out on your site.<br /><br /> Regards,Glen.Glen Youngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75800922660508635362016-09-03T20:21:53.072+12:002016-09-03T20:21:53.072+12:00Chuckle .. “an exemplar of English hymnology.” ...Chuckle .. “an exemplar of English hymnology.” Oh yes, it certainly glorifies England!!!!! It’s a British Israelite hymn Andrei.<br /><br />I agree with much that you say, especially that it’s restoration is our task, my husband and I have worked hard for that for many, many years.<br /><br />I have four sons, three of whom are Christians, the third who THINKS he’s a Bhuddist says he can’t quite throw out the Christian faith because of his parents. So I’m with you there too.<br />Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11987628838945618258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-6189283824705641042016-09-03T18:45:55.097+12:002016-09-03T18:45:55.097+12:00"Andrei, haver you never thought that perhaps..."Andrei, haver you never thought that perhaps Jesus recruited his disciples, first, among men - because that was the Jewish Tradition. Nobody at that time would have listened to a woman's teaching or advice. That's why Mary Magdalene's Resurrection story was ignored by the male disciples - even though it was Jesus' commission"<br /><br />- Hyperbolic nonsense. There are many stories in the Old Testament alone of wise women instructing and advising: the woman of Tekoa, the woman of Abel, Bathsheba interceding with David, Lemuel's mother, the wife of Proverbs 31.<br />Do you really think the incarnate Son of God was incapable of standing against cultural mores if he wanted to - such as speaking with a Samaritan woman of dubious reputation or healing a woman on the Sabbath or allowing a woman of 'bad reputation' to wash his feet and dry them with her hair? If Jesus wished to break a received cultural practice, he evidently did.<br />As for Mary Magdalene and the other women: please read carefully! The disciples didn't believe at first what they were told but they did *not ignore the women: they went to the tomb themselves to find out (Matt 28.9; Luke 24.12; John 20.3-10). (As an aside, the whole business of the women's visits - plural - to the tomb is very complicated (how many visits? who went when and saw what?), and John Wenham, for one, has attempted a reconstruction of these movements.)<br />It was a nice homilietical touch in the Middle Ages to call Mary of Magdala 'the apostle to the apostles' (but why she alone? why not also Johanna and Mary?), but this has nothing to do with how Jesus ordered his church.<br />The trouble with all liberal religion is that it is so culture-bound: like the Bishop in hell in 'The Great Divorce', it spends its time imagining what Jesus would have become or taught if he hadn't died so young! In other words, religious liberalism is just another form of naturalism.BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.com