tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post710654682319782295..comments2024-03-29T17:55:30.203+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: What Benedict can do, Rowan can do betterPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-82207319838262653142009-11-12T21:45:32.610+13:002009-11-12T21:45:32.610+13:00It has been a good conversation, thanks. I think y...It has been a good conversation, thanks. I think your question (2) is beautiful :-)liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-2507226171054709292009-11-12T21:26:54.113+13:002009-11-12T21:26:54.113+13:00Hi Bosco
(1) I bow to your better knowledge of pre...Hi Bosco<br />(1) I bow to your better knowledge of pre and post Catechism Catholicism!<br />(2) I see now that when presented with an RC priest talking in a satisfyingly (to me) 'diverse' manner, I should ask if he agrees with the Catechism to the standard required to enter the POs!!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-76681418055435972312009-11-12T21:24:08.921+13:002009-11-12T21:24:08.921+13:00I am not convinced that moving a tiny number of pe...I am not convinced that moving a tiny number of people from one denomination to another has much to do with ecumenism and church unity at all.<br /><br />Your other point merely reinforces what I said a couple of comments ago. The current and previous pope have arguably brought a centralisation to a degree never previously seen in Christian history. The vast majority of priests and nuns you write of predate the production of the Catechism and, as I wrote, present a diversity that Benedict is trying to deal with. Theologians employed in Roman Catholic institutions are regularly another matter, and you will be as aware as I that any distancing from the Catechism's teachings is met by their losing their employment in those institutions. It confirms the points I made well before the AC's publication, that any new members of POs have to take the full Catechism as their standard and furthermore are directly under the pope. They will certainly NOT have the diversity you appreciate, and that Benedict certainly doesn't.liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54102195104930469072009-11-12T15:48:23.178+13:002009-11-12T15:48:23.178+13:00Hi Bosco
The aim of ecumenism is church unity. Chu...Hi Bosco<br />The aim of ecumenism is church unity. Church unity is achievable where separated churches join together: it is arguable that Bendict's offer is indeed counter-productive to this in respect of the AC and RCC. Church unity is also achievable where one church absorbs others: it is arguable that Benedict's offer is a step on the way to this end. But, as you point out, it is quite arguable that no such step will be the result. <br /><br />I agree that the Anglo-papalist bluff has been called; and energy towards or away from the Covenant may change as a result. But I wonder - you may not -whether Benedict has also shone a light on some deficiencies in Anglican leadership at this time? A counterpoint, however, could be that Benedict has cast a shadow over his own leadership.<br /><br />If all Catholic priests, nuns, and theologians I know have signed up to the Catechism then diversity of thought may take place within the RCC!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-39283536317623512962009-11-12T15:28:05.776+13:002009-11-12T15:28:05.776+13:00You are misunderstanding this if you are placing t...You are misunderstanding this if you are placing this announcement in the category of "Roman ecumenicism". There has clearly been absolutely no involvement by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. No one is suggesting this is a step forward for ecumenism, all are measuring how much of a setback it is.<br /><br />If we are now agreeing that a miniscule group may actually take this up it will be added to another of Benedict's errors of judgement and its real significance may be that it may loosen the deadlock in the Church of England where a real alternative has now been provided for FIF et al. The Anglo-papalist bluff has now been called. It may also lessen the energy or alter the dynamics for an Anglican "Covenant". So yes, I agree, whatever the take-up the announcement may be significant - but possibly not as Benedict's overt intention.<br /><br />As to the difference in doctrinal affirmation, the text requires members joining the PO to profess acceptance of the complete Catechism of the Catholic Church. That is quite a bit different to assenting to the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral - even if such does occasionally lead to some fringe elements.liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-22444118499429978872009-11-12T11:45:15.077+13:002009-11-12T11:45:15.077+13:00Hi Bosco
It perhaps depends on perspective! Benedi...Hi Bosco<br />It perhaps depends on perspective! Benedict's offer is not very generous measured by, say, the normal standards of Anglican ecumenicism, but it is generous measured by normal standards of Roman ecumenicism.<br /><br />I quite agree the actual take up may be miniscule. I still think it significant that the offer has been made!<br /><br />As for unity/uniformity of thought: is Roman Catholic theology not a little bit, or even more diverse than you make out here? And is not Anglican unity-with-diversity in Christ not dependent on a common understanding of who Christ is, an understanding that sometimes seems very fragile when Spong, Cupitt and co get to work on christology?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87727977975132417702009-11-12T11:19:13.030+13:002009-11-12T11:19:13.030+13:00I am yet to be convinced that Personal Ordinariate...I am yet to be convinced that Personal Ordinariates and their equivalents are “provisional steps on the way to true unity”. I would suggest the majority of ecumenists see both the process and, with reference to Eastern Rites, the product as being a step away from unity. I am not convinced that anything like the numbers being suggested (half a million) will take up the offer – I posit it will be an embarrassing fizzer. I am not convinced that the offer is quite as generous as you allow, as those Benedict is inviting fit his understanding of Christianity (over against many of his current flock), there is no ongoing precedence for non-celibate priests as John Hepworth has declared, and he himself will not even be accepted to function as a priest. Roman Catholic ecclesiology is SIGNIFICANTLY different to Anglican ecclesiology which sees the fullness of the catholic church in each diocese. Finally, my primary point is that I differ in understanding unity as being in Christ and God, rather than primarily in uniformity of thought. What Anglicanism used to offer was a diversity of understanding and interpretation held in unity in Christ, in God.liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54890827492497062572009-11-12T09:36:18.416+13:002009-11-12T09:36:18.416+13:00Hi Bosco
That is quite a few Personal Ordinariates...Hi Bosco<br />That is quite a few Personal Ordinariates to keep an eye on. One imagines ++R might have to bring a few bishops out of retirement ...<br /><br />Your essential point (as I understand it) is that Personal Ordinariates, an actuality in the RCC, a possibility in the AC (if I were listened to), do not, of themselves, accomplish true unity in the body of Christ. I agree. My responsive point would be that all such moves would be provisional steps on the way to true unity and would be better than the hardened divisions resulting from schism.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-20753773010876941722009-11-12T09:20:20.710+13:002009-11-12T09:20:20.710+13:00BREAKING NEWS: In response to Pope Benedict’s will...BREAKING NEWS: In response to Pope Benedict’s will for the unity of the worldwide church, Archbishop Rowan Williams has in a masterstroke indeed produced an even better deal. Fine details of Cantuar’s Apostolic Constitution will be released on the feast of Ridley, Latimer, and Cranmer but the broad outlines are being announced in a joint press release later today. They will include a pro-gay-anti-women-in-orders Personal Ordinariate, an anti-gay-couples-as-bishops-pro-gay-blessing-pro-women-in-orders Tikanga, a flying bishop for those anti-chasuble-pro-lay-presidency, an Impersonal Ordinariate for those pro-women-in-orders-as long as they aren’t over men, and so forth. Original estimates are that at least 300 million should take up the offer of each new structure. The end result will be the same as Pope Benedict’s vision, Christian will never have to meet at the Lord’s Table again with persons they essentially disagree with.liturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.com