tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post7244906299828735480..comments2024-03-30T00:33:32.285+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Will the train crash?Peter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-43667665983688992882009-07-23T14:06:50.240+12:002009-07-23T14:06:50.240+12:00Hi Anonymous
I think we are talking at cross purpo...Hi Anonymous<br />I think we are talking at cross purposes, you from the vantage point of far away, so accessing the web presence of our church, but not its daily and weekly life. It is with respect to the latter that I speak of the Template as a sad episode in our life.<br /><br />Further, banging on about the status of the Blessing of a Relationship in relation to the Template misses my point that this service is not itself a formulary of the church, something I would object to.<br /><br />That there are things in the life of our church which anticipate things I object to in TEC makes what point? TEC is in a particular relationship with the Anglican Communion in which various statements as to who should do what and who will do or not do what are the subject of current controversy. That situation does not apply to ACANZP. Nor does the situation in ACANZP generate the news items here that TEC generates, with consequent unsettling of clergy and parishioners here. So, currently, I am paying some attention to TEC. The roles could reverse: ACANZP could become the centre of Communion attention; our decisions could be the subject of media articles, and could consequently cause great upset. You would find then that I have a keen and critical interest in the state of the play here!<br /><br />As for 'berating' TEC? Perhaps I am. If so I think I am the only commentator doing so who also thinks TEC should remain in the Communion!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-73925656746333874952009-07-23T13:40:24.855+12:002009-07-23T13:40:24.855+12:00I suspect, to be charitable, you are reading Anony...I suspect, to be charitable, you are reading Anonymous’s comments too hastily.<br /><br />We are discussing the status of the Blessing of a Relationship in your province. This is not affected in the slightest by whether the Worship Template is (status 1) a formulary or (status 2) authorised [see three comments up]. You thought the Worship Template is a formulary (1), but it is not. The Worship Template is authorised (2). The Worship Template allows (status 3) the Blessing of a Relationship. The Blessing of a Relationship would still have the allowed status (3) even if the Worship Template were to become a formulary. The status of the Blessing of a Relationship would not change by whether the Worship Template is a formulary (1) or authorised (2). I hope this is now clear and that we can agree on this?<br /><br />We have already established that the Worship Template does not alter flexibility of Sunday worship. There are no appendices to the authorised Worship Template. The explanatory note is no nail in any coffin, certainly not of the suite of “life events” rites that this Worship Template allows. If your reasoning held any water whatsoever and your speaking in the past tense of it as a “sad episode in the liturgical life of our church” one would have expected for the Worship Template to cease being authorised in your province, particularly as you state it has consequence unintended by General Synod. I have yet to see evidence of your suggestion that this is the case.<br /><br />The Waiapu booklet further supports my point that your province anticipates much that you berate in TEC (especially the recent GC decisions), but as I do not have it to hand, and you are unwilling to place it online, possibly another, Howard Pilgrim for example, may oblige by placing it online and move this discussion forward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-17631786688820207532009-07-22T19:11:01.854+12:002009-07-22T19:11:01.854+12:00"What is important is that whether or not you..."What is important is that whether or not your Worship Template is a formulary makes absolutely no difference to the status of the Blessing of a Relationship which it allows. You and those debating with you appear to be suggesting that its being a formulary would have affected the status of the Blessing of a Relationship. It does not. So, once again, I cannot follow your logic that this would lead you to leave your church." If you do not understand the significant difference between something 'allowed' in the church and something embedded in the church in a formulary then I am not the one to explain it to you, what with my logic you cannot understand and all that.<br /><br />"We have established that the Worship Template was not introduced to allow flexibility in your Sunday service – you already had that. Clearly, then, it was introduced to allow for rites not covered by your already broad liturgical provisions: the suite of services “for life events”." I think you are dead wrong here. It was introduced to allow flexibility. Its application to other rites an unintended consequence spotted by some smart thinkers. The reasoning behind the Template was flawed; the process and explanations given to justify its appendices somewhat weak; and the fact that GS had to subsequently add an explanatory note to the Template was the nail in the coffin of a sad episode in the liturgical life of our church.<br /><br />"Your bishops who prepared those rites, then prepared the Worship Template and had this passed by your General Synod. They then produced their explanation of their position in a joint statement to their diocese about sexuality. It will be easier for you to obtain this booklet from the Waiapu Diocese than me being as you say “such a long way away”. I hope you will scan this and put it on scribd (that you use so well on one of your other sites) and post a link and a blog post about it so that we and your readers can continue progressing on at least the facts before you work on some interpretations and response." I believe a blog is still free to set up and Scribd still free to use ... I leave it to another with time and motivation to follow your suggestion. If Waiapu itself wants to further promote its booklet then I shall consider engaging with it!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-19713708540146849912009-07-22T15:09:41.542+12:002009-07-22T15:09:41.542+12:00It is good that we are progressing to agreement at...It is good that we are progressing to agreement at least on the facts. <br /><br />As an aside it is interesting that you and some of your church members thought that the Worship Template is a formulary – again this means you and they are not paying attention to the process of how a formulary is arrived at, let alone at General Synod. It once again also highlights both the poor communication and training in your province.<br /><br />What is important is that whether or not your Worship Template is a formulary makes absolutely no difference to the status of the Blessing of a Relationship which it allows. You and those debating with you appear to be suggesting that its being a formulary would have affected the status of the Blessing of a Relationship. It does not. So, once again, I cannot follow your logic that this would lead you to leave your church.<br /><br />We have established that the Worship Template was not introduced to allow flexibility in your Sunday service – you already had that. Clearly, then, it was introduced to allow for rites not covered by your already broad liturgical provisions: the suite of services “for life events”. <br /><br />Your bishops who prepared those rites, then prepared the Worship Template and had this passed by your General Synod. They then produced their explanation of their position in a joint statement to their diocese about sexuality. It will be easier for you to obtain this booklet from the Waiapu Diocese than me being as you say “such a long way away”. I hope you will scan this and put it on scribd (that you use so well on one of your other sites) and post a link and a blog post about it so that we and your readers can continue progressing on at least the facts before you work on some interpretations and response.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-6000066234326679872009-07-21T15:00:36.580+12:002009-07-21T15:00:36.580+12:00Hi Anonymous
I am much relieved to find that I hav...Hi Anonymous<br />I am much relieved to find that I have misunderstood so much about the life of my church which you understand so well, and from such a long way away, including the very much overlooked point here that the Worship Template is completely unnecessary because of the flexibility already allowed for in NZPB.<br /><br />I have been confused because I have heard argument that the Worship Template is a formulary and thus (so the argument went) certain allowed services were authorised, if not themselves formularies). Thankfully I did not leave the church during this time of confusion!<br /><br />But, checking my canons book, you are correct: the Template is not a formulary!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-2469284634160833992009-07-21T14:38:46.815+12:002009-07-21T14:38:46.815+12:00Your readers I hope are charitably taking your rep...Your readers I hope are charitably taking your repeated changing tracks as genuine confusion on your part rather than belligerence. No one (but you now) has suggested that the Blessing of a Relationship is a formulary of your church. You show an inability to understand what a formulary is or how it is arrived at on another one of your sites.<br /><br />Liturgical resources can be (1) a formulary (2) authorised but not a formulary (3) allowed. “For all the Saints” is a liturgical resource in your province that is not a formulary, nor is it authorised – it is allowed. It is available on one of the official websites of your province. <br /><br />The “Blessing of a Relationship” is a liturgical resource in your province that is not a formulary, nor is it authorised – it is allowed. It is available on one of the official websites of your province.<br /><br />The Blessing of a Relationship is allowed by your Worship Template which was authorised by your General Synod. Your Worship Template is not a formulary.<br /><br />Your Worship Template was not required for “approving flexibility for Sunday Worship” as you (unspecified plural) thought. Adaptation for non-communion services is allowed through page 54 of NZPB which is a formulary. Adaptation for communion services is allowed through pages 511-514 of NZPB which is a formulary.<br /><br />Your province was the first in the Anglican Communion to allow the Blessing of a Relationship, in Canada was next, TEC is following.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-68080029242171397892009-07-18T12:42:38.129+12:002009-07-18T12:42:38.129+12:00Hi Anonymous
"Thank you for the more charita...Hi Anonymous<br /><br />"Thank you for the more charitable tenor of your recent posts." OK<br /><br />"The paragraph of concern at the difficulty of communications in your province is drawn a little from searching for things online but mostly paraphrases your own posts and responses." Fair enough <br /><br />"You still have not mentioned the affirmation of Christ’s Lordship in TEC, or today’s passing that tithing be a minimum to be Episcopalian." I do not have time to search these out - I have been to the resolutions page and been overwhelmed by the sheer number there; I have also not yet come across an 'easy digest' of the days deliberations at GC. If you could point me to one ...<br /><br />"I am astonished again that you cannot ascertain the correctness of the assertion that you have lost 70% of your worshippers recently in one of your only seven dioceses." These statistics are not available on the web. I may be able to do a search of the Dunedin year books in our Diocesan archives ... again, time ...<br /><br />"Your positive comments on the Anaheim Statement and its respectful reception by the majority appears to contradict your call for ACNA’s acceptance as it appears there is little justification for ACNA’s existence." I think there is justification but perhaps I shall give it in a post rather than in a comment. <br /><br />"Then you consistently seek to have TEC and ACNA part of the same communion – why can ACNA then not be part of a bigger TEC (as it was)?" I think ACNA folk want to work on different agendas when they meet in Convention. But that's only a partial answer. <br /><br />"D025 and B033 were not changes to our ordination canon – you continue to confuse their status." I maintain my position that, irrespective of non-change to canons, B033 was associated with a willingness to be in moratorium and D025 is associated with a willingness to move out of moratorium.<br /><br />"You should not be surprised that the future is not predictable even by what you term “the two most powerful leaders of TEC”." Except that some TEC bishops seem very clear that D025 will lead to gay and lesbian bishops in due course. <br /><br />"Your own position is unclear and appears to vary, and you are just one person – why do you expect no compromising within the largest legislative body in the world after India’s parliament?" I always expect compromise when legislatures meet. Along with others I am wondering if what has been delivered is 'honest' ...<br /> <br />"The collection of NZ Anglican rites formally in the name of your Liturgical Commission, online, and used by clergy and bishops in your province you now suggest has not been presented to your General Synod – or at least you do not know – and of course we agree there is nowhere to check. And you suggest that TEC is unclear!!!" I do not think GS has ever been formally printed with texts for same sex blessings that it has then approved as formularies. I can be sure of that because that would have created a stir. Because of the ambiguous thing known as the Template people assert that these somewhat hidden, though available, liturgical resources are authorised . If they are it is by an indirect route and I think ACANZP Anglicans are entitled to be unclear about that. By contrast I think TEC has been very clear that it is authorising the development of pastoral resources while also being clear that these will not (unless and until presented to GC and approved in the prescribed way) become formal services of TEC enshrining doctrine.<br /><br />You see: I can be clear about what TEC is clear about ...:)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-62072680316634362862009-07-18T12:30:48.652+12:002009-07-18T12:30:48.652+12:00Thank you for the more charitable tenor of your re...Thank you for the more charitable tenor of your recent posts.<br />The paragraph of concern at the difficulty of communications in your province is drawn a little from searching for things online but mostly paraphrases your own posts and responses. <br />You still have not mentioned the affirmation of Christ’s Lordship in TEC, or today’s passing that tithing be a minimum to be Episcopalian.<br />I am astonished again that you cannot ascertain the correctness of the assertion that you have lost 70% of your worshippers recently in one of your only seven dioceses.<br />Your positive comments on the Anaheim Statement and its respectful reception by the majority appears to contradict your call for ACNA’s acceptance as it appears there is little justification for ACNA’s existence. Then you consistently seek to have TEC and ACNA part of the same communion – why can ACNA then not be part of a bigger TEC (as it was)? D025 and B033 were not changes to our ordination canon – you continue to confuse their status. You should not be surprised that the future is not predictable even by what you term “the two most powerful leaders of TEC”. Your own position is unclear and appears to vary, and you are just one person – why do you expect no compromising within the largest legislative body in the world after India’s parliament? <br />The collection of NZ Anglican rites formally in the name of your Liturgical Commission, online, and used by clergy and bishops in your province you now suggest has not been presented to your General Synod – or at least you do not know – and of course we agree there is nowhere to check. And you suggest that TEC is unclear!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-54486355926494232582009-07-17T22:03:02.754+12:002009-07-17T22:03:02.754+12:00Hi Anon1
I do not know the Dunedin attendance figu...Hi Anon1<br />I do not know the Dunedin attendance figures 1989 compared with the present. I should be a little surprised if it was as much as 70%. I do not think the Dunedin Diocese has particularly promoted same sex blessings within it's own area and as far as I know they have never brought them to General Synod (nor has anyone else) for explicit approval.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-34893663559468633722009-07-17T21:56:22.940+12:002009-07-17T21:56:22.940+12:00Hi Anonymous (i.e. not Anon1),
If ACNA survives, ...Hi Anonymous (i.e. not Anon1),<br /><br />If ACNA survives, which I believe is possible, I shall be proven correct. If it does not we shall both be correct, but you shall have more satisfaction as you will be able to say 'I told you so' whereas I will only be able to say 'I thought that might happen'!<br /><br />For those who remain in TEC there is respect for difference of opinion. But I did not say, "As to your thesis that differences of opinion are not respected within TEC, and strongly held positions different to that of the majority have no place there,". My point is that TEC has done things knowing not only that some would differ in opinion but some would leave. If you continue to misquote me I shall be disinclined to respond to you.<br /><br />You make allegations about the poverty of communication in our church which leads me to wonder if you are a member of our church for what you say is quite similar to other complaints I have heard voiced from within our ranks!<br /><br />The authorities whose hands are being stayed for the time being are (a) our bishops (b) our General Synod. This is my interpretation of the current situation. I will happily publish the protests of any bishop or member of General Synod who says it is not the case.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-58055448619425185632009-07-17T20:20:20.255+12:002009-07-17T20:20:20.255+12:00Once again can’t follow your logic: when ACNA brea...Once again can’t follow your logic: when ACNA breaks up – how will it “prove which of us is correct”?<br /><br />As to your thesis that differences of opinion are not respected within TEC, and strongly held positions different to that of the majority have no place there, it is again noticeable that you blog makes no mention of Bishop Gary W. Lillibridge of West Texas’s “Anaheim Statement” – but, of course, the respect shown to those who do not accept the majority position, and the respect shown back from the majority to those who differ from them completely contradicts the whole thrust of your blog and its justification and support of the schismatics. <br /><br />It is difficult to ascertain what would be “a certain type of promotion” in your province. There appears to be no mechanism whatsoever to keep your clergy, let alone your laity informed of anything within your province. Websites do not function and clearly you regard even official diocesan websites as counting for nothing. Clergy including bishops using the allowable rites as they do is clearly not what you mean. You do not clearly recall the General Synod meetings you have been to and there is no record of their decisions online. Up to date formularies, canons, and passed motions are not publicly available. There is nowhere anyone can actually see what your primates are thinking. You have acknowledged there is no up to date knowledge by anyone of how many are even attending or attached to your churches. When you say people might leave your church – how would those “people” ever discover the events that are actually happening (you, as a priest and member of General Synod were unaware of your own Liturgical Commission’s rites not to mention the content of the Worship Template that you appear not even sure you seriously debated)? How would anyone even notice that people had left?<br /><br />Who are these "authorities" whose hands are being "stayed"? Clearly not that of your bishops, your Liturgical Commission, or General Synod.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1815207780178217842009-07-17T18:07:39.621+12:002009-07-17T18:07:39.621+12:00"One of the things (I believe) which is stayi..."One of the things (I believe) which is staying the hand of ACANZP authorities re same-sex blessings is that, notwithstanding their availability on Dunedin's website, a certain kind of promotion of them will lead to people leaving our church."<br /><br />Can you elaborate on this, Peter? My understanding is that Dunedin diocese has lost about 70% of attendance since 1989 - outstripping even Newark!<br /><br />Anon1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-26521195117759788772009-07-17T14:09:09.886+12:002009-07-17T14:09:09.886+12:00Hi Anonymous
It is probable rather than certain, i...Hi Anonymous<br />It is probable rather than certain, in my view, that ACNA will not survive. Time will prove which of us is correct!<br /><br />When I say 'one critique etc' I am attempting to summarise a variety of observations I have seen made over recent times, including local conversations, which note that it is a genuinely difficult thing to include those who want X to happen and those who do not want X to happen.<br /><br />In the specific case of the movement towards greater explicit and formal inclusion of gay and lesbian people in TEC, it has done this knowing (in my view, you may well disagree with my view) that to do so would set up a situation in which a number of people were likely to leave. There is nothing particularly profound in the observation. One of the things (I believe) which is staying the hand of ACANZP authorities re same-sex blessings is that, notwithstanding their availability on Dunedin's website, a certain kind of promotion of them will lead to people leaving our church.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-36304017787857055352009-07-17T13:21:58.737+12:002009-07-17T13:21:58.737+12:00Please justify your "One critique of TEC is t...Please justify your "One critique of TEC is that it has included one group of people at the expense of another." <br /><br />If you are looking for certain predictions - here is real breaking news for you: ACNA will not survive united.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com