tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post769231532680145957..comments2024-03-29T22:00:02.999+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: The big picturePeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-72977736331720823232012-03-26T16:27:37.373+13:002012-03-26T16:27:37.373+13:00"Do you really think that The Radiant Transce..."Do you really think that The Radiant Transcendental Being Who IS alive all beings and things has given Christians some kind of exclusive "covenenant"."<br /><br />Difficult question to answer given the way you have it worded. My first question is, who is this "radiant transcendental being" your talking about?<br /><br />But to give the short answer to your question it is, yes. God has spoken exclusively in the history of Israel and the Person of Jesus Christ.<br /><br />"Remembering that ALL of those who ever got to define what is "authentic" or "traditional" did so because they ALWAYS had the levers of worldly power in their time and place, with NO exceptions."<br /><br />I can think of a huge number of exceptions to that claim. Christianity, in its first three hundred years or so, defined what was authentic and traditional at a time when they had no worldy power and were persecuted by the State.<br /><br />Today in the West, including the U.S., conservative Christians do not hold any real worldy power and are often the targets of secular legal persecution.<br /><br />Conservative Christians in many other places around the world often the targets of serious and deadly persecution. <br /><br />"Even more so when there are now well over 30,000 different and differing Christian denominations"<br /><br />This is something of an overstatement. While there are serious differences, there is also a core orthodoxy that is agreed to by most Christian churches, what C.S. Lewis called mere Christianity.<br /><br />"This essay (and website) provides a unique assessment of the "big picture" re what right-wing Christianity, as a would be totalitarian power and control seeking entity in the USA"<br /><br />Hysteria mongering by the Left about what "right wing" Christians are up to rarely have any basis in reality.<br /><br />Every political movement, religious or secular, seeks power and influence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-50677949103513094932012-03-26T14:59:30.524+13:002012-03-26T14:59:30.524+13:00Do you really think that The Radiant Transcendenta...Do you really think that The Radiant Transcendental Being Who IS alive all beings and things has given Christians some kind of exclusive "covenenant". Especially to those who pretend to claim some kind of "traditional" authenticity. <br /><br />Remembering that ALL of those who ever got to define what is "authentic" or "traditional" did so because they ALWAYS had the levers of worldly power in their time and place, with NO exceptions. <br /><br />Even more so when there are now well over 30,000 different and differing Christian denominations, sects and sub-sects all competing for market share in the market place of whats-in-it-for-me religious consumerism!<br /><br />This essay (and website) provides a unique assessment of the "big picture" re what right-wing Christianity, as a would be totalitarian power and control seeking entity in the USA is really all about.<br /><br />http://tpjmagazine.us/adams29Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-13692007213941873282012-03-23T21:55:30.243+13:002012-03-23T21:55:30.243+13:00I have heard it whispered on the grapevine that th...I have heard it whispered on the grapevine that the Chicago/Lambeth Quadrilateral is not a bad place to start from, when assessing what might be a basic 'Instrument of Unity' for loyal Anglicans. It did hold together until someone cried 'foul' and decided to opt out of Communion.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-26648770938746349652012-03-23T21:31:31.460+13:002012-03-23T21:31:31.460+13:00Point taken, Bosco! I shall try to grey down the b...Point taken, Bosco! I shall try to grey down the black and white :)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-89813950981929858632012-03-23T16:14:12.677+13:002012-03-23T16:14:12.677+13:00You appear to be turning my comment into an either...You appear to be turning my comment into an either/or black/white binary option – whereas I was using words like “increasingly”, “more and more”, “Less and less”. <br /><br />It is this binary approach that, interestingly, undergirds the “Anglican Covenant” and is one of its most damaging aspects. We already have our God-given strong centre – it is the hardening of the soft edges that reinforces/causes our disunity and, yes, certainly detracts from mission. <br /><br />Blessingsliturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-81064027211236592232012-03-23T15:16:23.403+13:002012-03-23T15:16:23.403+13:00Peter Carrell
To ++Rowan's credit, he has tri...Peter Carrell<br /><br /><i>To ++Rowan's credit, he has tried these ten years to work for a Communion in which together we might continue to engage in the search for God's truth for everyone.</i><br /><br />This idea of the search for God's truth requires some qualification.<br /><br />1. There already exist settled truths. Acceptance of those settled truths becomes the entry condition for participation. Some things are beyond examination. Not everything is open to question.<br /><br />2. Man is not capable of reasoning his way to divine truth. It must be revealed to him. No appeal to reason or experience qualifies as a valid argument to establish truth. We do not begin with ourselves and reason outward to truth. We receive truth and reason on that basis. Why is this important? It limits the scope of the authority that may be employed. Our experiences, objective or subjective, do not constitute an authority.<br /><br />Without these limiting criteria, the discussion is futile. The parties involved will not join in a common search for truth. They will engage in a conflict of competing and mutually-exclusive authorities. It will produce a long tiresome and ultimately fruitless discussion that can only be settled by a raw exercise of power. Which is pretty much why the Anglican Communion is in the state its in.<br /><br />carlcarl jacobshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195615264891904953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-75735781722376772722012-03-23T13:04:59.451+13:002012-03-23T13:04:59.451+13:00Hi Bosco
Even in a post-denominational world it is...Hi Bosco<br />Even in a post-denominational world it is notable that post-denominational Christians are not welcome at Catholic Mass unless they are Catholics (work to do on unity there), that (supposing we were both vicars) you and I may rejoice to see other churches growing but become somewhat despondent if people are leaving our parish churches and our jobs are under threat which (in my experience) normally leads to a visit to the bishop to see if she has a job for us elsewhere (and not to the local Presbyterian moderator etc): in sum, denominations do not matter like they used to, but they still do.<br /><br />I am trying to mount an argument for the Covenant when others ae mounting arguments against the Covenant. That they choose to find the Covenant divisive, indeed even make the Covenant divisive is a pity: there is nothing divisive in the Covenant in itself. <br /><br />We do live in a divided church and Communion and it is an entirely fair and appropriate question to ask if the Covenant will help overcome those divisions or not. My argument is not that the Covenant in itself will overcome those divisions; my argument is that the Covenant presents us with an opportunity to consider whether we wish to remain in our divided state or not; and offers a mechanism (via its contents) for future divisions to be addressed and overcome.<br /><br />I am taking it for granted that those opposed to the Covenant are not particularly serious about addressing our present or future divisions because what I am not seeing are any constructive alternative proposals.<br /><br />It is indeed, as you propose, possible to 'get on with some mission and ministry' and not worry about these things. I suggest that without some attention to what holds us together, this will mean further fragmentation.<br /><br />To be frank, I think our fragmentation affects our mission, so, in the end, I think I cannot divorce work on unity from work on mission and ministry!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61383912009897468972012-03-23T12:47:26.861+13:002012-03-23T12:47:26.861+13:00Greetings Peter
Numbers are not unimportant, but ...Greetings Peter<br /><br />Numbers are not unimportant, but I’m not as convinced by your statistics. Writing on some form that you belong to a denomination doesn’t say a lot. CARA has Mass attendance amongst USA Roman Catholics at 22%. Suddenly we might be talking 15 million, not 68 million. In NZ part of our problem is that Anglicans continue to think of ourselves as having a million members here – a bit more honesty might actually help our mission IMO. <br /><br />I think we increasingly live in a post-denominational context. People, more and more, have little interest in what denomination a church is – many churches cannot even be categorised in that last-millennium manner. Less and less people are committed to staying within one denomination for life or of marrying within their own denomination.<br /><br />As to the advertising in this post in favour of the “Anglican Covenant” – I will not reflect on the fact that nothing within that document is actually discussed in any detail, there is just the advertising-speak that it would help unity and not signing is against unity. IMO the opposite is true – it has artificially created yet another (unnecessary) division within the already fragmented/fragile Anglican community – now dividing individuals and communities into “pro”, “anti”, and “apathetic” groups in relation to this human document. The time, energy, videos, meetings, flights, debates, synods, etc. would have been better spent IMO on addressing the actual issues and getting on with some mission and ministry.<br /><br />Blessings<br /><br />Boscoliturgyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11822769747947139669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-65985725645665929512012-03-23T12:43:27.338+13:002012-03-23T12:43:27.338+13:00Hi Ron,
I don't "lust for the very ethos ...Hi Ron,<br />I don't "lust for the very ethos of Unity at all costs that is the Roman paradigm", but I do long for the unity in Christ which you value, which the NT teaches, and which (I suggest) is helped by an agreed framework of mutual accountability (as envisaged in the Covenant).Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-42420322898942150712012-03-23T11:58:03.242+13:002012-03-23T11:58:03.242+13:00"' Rather, the point of catholic theology..."' Rather, the point of catholic theology is to work out the application of the gospel through a church in mission which does not divide, not even in its institutional framework."<br /><br />And here, Peter, you have precisely the Roman Catholic understanding of catholic unity - under magisterial governance, by the Pope!<br /><br />I find it rather intriguing that someone who values the protestant ethos - which rejected uniformity under the dominance of Rome, should on this blog lust for the very ethos of Unity at all costs that is the Roman paradigm. <br /><br />This is why I am not a Roman Catholic, but I do value the catholic unity implicit in a proper understanding of All the Baptized being 'en Christo'. I find that unity mostly at the community around the altar, at the common Celebration of Christ in the Eucharist. "Where two or three...."Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-48420944235172190882012-03-23T11:20:23.196+13:002012-03-23T11:20:23.196+13:00Hi Rosemary,
"extremely judgemental, critical...Hi Rosemary,<br />"extremely judgemental, critical and superior" ... I shall keep rereading the post as I don't quite see that yet!<br /><br />However you could be right. In my defence I would say that I am trying to defend the virtue of the Covenant (over which many Anglicans have been extremely judgemental and critical) and also a defence of ++Rowan (of whom, I am noticing, reading around the internet, some extremely judgement and critical things being said). However I won't go so far as to say people are feeling 'superior' about the Covenant or about ++Rowan!<br /><br />I am sure God doesn't think in denominations; but I am in a denomination and have a role as an officer within that to work for its good health. But as you know, there are different visions of what will help its good health.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-87860204650579762882012-03-23T10:43:44.683+13:002012-03-23T10:43:44.683+13:00I think we can all get stuck in the smaller pictur...I think we can all get stuck in the smaller picture. As to this post, my first reaction is that you are seeing only what we have in this world. What’s more you give a picture of denominations that I don’t think about at all. As I said in an earlier post, God’s church is made up with people from all denominations. He doesn’t think in denominations .. only about His people. Jesus didn’t die for denominations, they are a failure of mankind that God in His kindness has used to teach us about various theological truths. We get very hot under the collar about them, but I never get the feeling that He does. However, I’m quite sure He does call us to various parts of His church, there to achieve what He has called us to, but unity isn’t it. Again, as I said before, in His eyes, we ARE unified, we don’t have to fight for it, we just have to search for the truth, and even in that, our understanding will be what He gives us as the Holy Spirit. However, do try not to be judgemental about those who don’t see things quite as you do. In this post you sound extremely judgemental, critical and superior, and that I’m quite sure, does nothing to help the cause of unity.Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16631238218649271544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-33215995440710827152012-03-23T09:51:37.932+13:002012-03-23T09:51:37.932+13:00So long as it is understand, Rosemary, that I incl...So long as it is understand, Rosemary, that I include myself 'under judgement': I am often somewhat short-sighted and small-minded myself.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74638041502851089402012-03-23T09:23:56.009+13:002012-03-23T09:23:56.009+13:00You are making a lot of very strong judgements abo...You are making a lot of very strong judgements about a lot of people here Peter. Sometimes I have wished to see you do so, strange to see it in this form.Rosemary Behanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16631238218649271544noreply@blogger.com