tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post809409272519756901..comments2024-03-28T22:29:52.666+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: It is not just a question of orthodoxyPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-29954910789782370862016-04-28T19:04:08.311+12:002016-04-28T19:04:08.311+12:00Thanks, TrevDev. Your view sounds pretty balanced ...Thanks, TrevDev. Your view sounds pretty balanced in the circumstances.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1050165914747219352016-04-24T14:33:54.829+12:002016-04-24T14:33:54.829+12:00williamp says, "If Truth never changes, then ...williamp says, "If Truth never changes, then any dissembling of a particular Truth that's clear in Scripture will be accomplished at a high price." The problem is, though, that those on the pro-blessing side believe that there are other truths which are equally clear in Scripture and which have the power to show the church that it should, in certain circumstances, modify its rules regarding same-sex relationships. The issue is not one of "dissembling" but of how to rightly apply some scriptures in the light of others. <br /><br />The pro-blessing people (with whom I sympathise) may be wrong and ultimately come to recognise it, or so may the conservatives, but I don't believe that, as God looks down on us as we debate this issue, He sees intransigent fools on either side of forum - just faithful but flawed believers trying to discern the course of action that is most obedient to Him.<br /><br />TrevorTrevDevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07875646655407335207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-34855858300582389912016-04-24T13:56:51.157+12:002016-04-24T13:56:51.157+12:00Thanks, Peter. I see most of those who are on the ...Thanks, Peter. I see most of those who are on the side of blessing same-sex relationships in the same way you do, and I think there are arguments on that side, based in the revelation of the Kingdom of God, that many on the conservative side have dismissed too quickly or not considered at all. I also agree that there is much unwarranted stereotyping in the way each side views the other. That's why we must keep the dialogue going, if at all possible.<br /><br />TrevorTrevDevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07875646655407335207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-25725452755965475722016-04-21T13:48:49.861+12:002016-04-21T13:48:49.861+12:00Sometimes it may be helpful to get back to basics,...Sometimes it may be helpful to get back to basics, as I believe something Pageantmaster has done in his principal comment. If Truth never changes, then any dissembling of a particular Truth that's clear in Scripture will be accomplished at a high price. Thus, the issue reduces to one of belief, not of "judging" another. Obviously, parties in "all sorts and conditions" of relationships are deserving of compassion that seeks to reflect the wide love set forth in the Gospel. The beginning words of a beloved hymn: "Christ for the world we sing", reflects this scope of this compassionate work which can and should be done without falling into a trap that may indeed be appealing but also unwise. williamphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15462159892385010372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-47402846303201284192016-04-21T12:38:41.999+12:002016-04-21T12:38:41.999+12:00Pageantmaster said...
"I see that JI Packer n...Pageantmaster said...<br />"I see that JI Packer now serves as a priest and theologian emeritus in the Anglican Church in North America [which covers Canada too]."<br /><br />Ah! That makes sense now. ACNA's Theologian. Thank you, Pageantmaster. Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-9489550023245483302016-04-21T08:56:36.655+12:002016-04-21T08:56:36.655+12:00I see that JI Packer now serves as a priest and th...I see that JI Packer now serves as a priest and theologian emeritus in the Anglican Church in North America [which covers Canada too]. <br /><br />Bishop Henry Scriven serves as the Mission Director for Latin America in the Church Mission Society [CMS] into which the South American Mission Society [SAMS] was merged.Pageantmasternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-2739721476735187312016-04-21T08:37:48.398+12:002016-04-21T08:37:48.398+12:00My recollection is that New Westminster Canada for...My recollection is that New Westminster Canada former Bishop Michael Ingham [also English] purported to remove the ministerial status of JI Packer. Of course JI Packer was ordained a priest in the Church of England, so no one in the CofE or Anglican Communion took any notice of it, any more than they did of the late Presiding Bishop's purported renunciation of the ministry of English Bishop Henry Scriven.Pageantmasternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-4146498048452506942016-04-21T08:12:51.406+12:002016-04-21T08:12:51.406+12:00Hi Ron, Brian, Pageantmaster,
Yes, all these thing...Hi Ron, Brian, Pageantmaster,<br />Yes, all these things matter.<br />Also matters that the church does not fracture unnecessarily, does not fracture over a molehill it has made into a mountain, or over something which we are genuinely divided on in terms of conscience and conviction.<br />As far as I know Jim Packer and others are debarred from ministry in the ACC and treated as though they are not clergy any longer.<br />As for unravelling the creeds, Brian, let's not hastily unravel,our commitment to one church!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-62799016153454095262016-04-20T22:20:15.127+12:002016-04-20T22:20:15.127+12:00"But remember also that the clearest definiti..."But remember also that the clearest definition of Christian charity is "to will and act for the good and glory of the other" (as that defrocked-and-disbarred-from-the-ministry Anglican theologian Jim Packer has defined it somewhere). It is not 'loving' to confirm a person in sinful ways. I once knew a retired missionary lady (ex-OMF, China) who was known for saying at least once: 'Young man, I must warn you, if you continue the way you are going, you will end up in hell.' Was she unloving or just tactless?" - Brian Kelly -<br /><br />1. I wasn't aware that Jim Packer had been 'de-frocked and disbarred from Anglican ministry'. Peter, can you confirm that?<br /><br />2. " the clearest definition of Christian charity is "to will and act for the good and glory of the other" - Jim Packer via Brian Kelly -<br /><br />And where does sexism or homophobia fit into that premise? Obviously these do not fit in with the requirement of 'loving asist loved us".<br /><br />3. It also is not 'loving' to 'confirm' what you see as the 'sinful ways' of another person. You may conceivably be wrong in your judgement. Indeed you could be committing the sin of presumption by arrogating to yourself the right to judge another's 'sins', when you are not immune to sinning yourself. Let God be the Judge. He alone can condemn - or Redeem. Humility in this matter is a wonderful charism - not always easy to practice, but a blessing to be aware of. Jesus was quite cklear in his injunction: "Do not judge, lest you be judged yourselves!"Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8107578277138120572016-04-20T18:09:48.561+12:002016-04-20T18:09:48.561+12:00"The problem is that it does matter, and the ..."The problem is that it does matter, and the reason is that it is not possible to change the church's teaching without doing spiritual violence to the Scriptures."<br /><br />Pageantmaster is correct, and periodic concerns about niceties of language and 'civility' must not obscure the matter. Truth - biblical truth and theological truth - is SYSTEMIC: try taking away one clause of the Creeds and see what happens to the rest. It will fall aprt like flatpack furniture (at least, the kind I used to buy). And it's no good saying to a patient, 'Don't worry, the cancer is only in your leg, the rest of your body is fine.'<br /><br />If any of my beliefs or teachings are demonstrably false, I should certainly be called unorthodox; and if I fail to love *as Christ loved us* (which I do every day), then I deserve to be called unloving. But remember also that the clearest definition of Christian charity is "to will and act for the good and glory of the other" (as that defrocked-and-disbarred-from-the-ministry Anglican theologian Jim Packer has defined it somewhere). It is not 'loving' to confirm a person in sinful ways. I once knew a retired missionary lady (ex-OMF, China) who was known for saying at least once: 'Young man, I must warn you, if you continue the way you are going, you will end up in hell.' Was she unloving or just tactless?BrianR https://www.blogger.com/profile/11084982458935874569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-67712371401275020192016-04-20T14:06:55.531+12:002016-04-20T14:06:55.531+12:00The problem is that it does matter, and the reason...The problem is that it does matter, and the reason is that it is not possible to change the church's teaching without doing spiritual violence to the Scriptures. In order to pave the way for change, some way has had to be found around a clear reading by adding either additional constructs or by changing the way we regard Scripture and that leads to a reduced place and authority for them in our lives. It leads to an undemanding and less powerful witness, and a God who blesses what we decide He will bless, rather than the other way round. It comes down to the question Christ asks St Peter: "Who do you say that I am." Are we prepared to say that: "you are the Christ?" and obey Him, or will we say: "Did God really say?"<br /><br />I feel that it is a pity that this is the presenting issue, but one needs to be clear that a lot more goes with change than liturgy in His Church.<br /><br />Prayers for your church as you discern these things.Pageantmasternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-779573394461080572016-04-20T09:03:02.264+12:002016-04-20T09:03:02.264+12:00Peter, I am surprised that you chose to excise wha...Peter, I am surprised that you chose to excise what I thought was perhaps the most important point of my response to you on this issue. However, as I have said before - your blog; your decision.<br /><br />Christ IS risen, Alleluia. He is risen indeed, Alleluia, Alleluia!<br /><br />May I just say that all of the conservatives present must have learned something valuable from the input of the Oxford Speaker. Something which, I hope, will have affected their stance on the innate grace of our human sexual nature.Father Ron Smithhttp://kiwianglo.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-58549553369779593252016-04-19T22:26:23.674+12:002016-04-19T22:26:23.674+12:00DEar Ron
I am only prepared to publish the first p...DEar Ron<br />I am only prepared to publish the first part of a comment you have submitted on this thread. Do NOT discuss other people and their innermost beings on this blog. Do it on your own blog, be sued for doing so if you will, but do NOT do it here. It wastes my time!<br /><br />COMMENT FROM RON, expurgated:<br /><br />""There is no conspiracy, deliberate or accidental to de-orthodoxify our church. All the believers in the bodily resurrection of our Lord who also propose that we bless same sex relationships will continue after May to believe in the bodily resurrection of our Lord." - Peter Carrell<br /><br />An excellent point you make here, Peter. People to whom I have spoken on this issue are mostly loyal and worshipping Anglicans,content to recite the Creeds, respond to the call to confession at the Eucharist, grateful for their absolution, and keen to get on with the exigencies of life with a lively faith in God and a belief that God is merciful. Some even, like myself, understand that the mother of Christ really did say: "All generations will call me Blessed".<br /><br />[excised]<br />"Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-38030014950714478482016-04-19T22:23:11.443+12:002016-04-19T22:23:11.443+12:00Hi Bosco
Increasingly I am coming to a conviction ...Hi Bosco<br />Increasingly I am coming to a conviction that we are dealing with a first-order issue with a difference. That difference is that it is (arguably) a first-order issue of a kind that we should not walk apart over (because it is an issue which (a) concerns all the vulnerabilities and frailties which mark us as sexual beings and thus calls us to unusual sensitivity and compassion, and (b) challenges us to think with unusually deep insights so that, for instance, conservatives might see those who oppose conservatives (e.g. on the basis that it is a second-order issue rather than a first-order issue) as working on the basis of compassion and care rather than on some slippery slope of an agenda to progressively liberalise the church in all its doctrines).<br /><br />But in saying that, I want to carefully note that there have been ways in which these matters have been "forced" on Anglicans so that walking apart has seem like the only option before them. I pray that those of us working to hold this church together do not find we are working for a church which forces this church into schism.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-59106471155784013362016-04-19T16:59:47.013+12:002016-04-19T16:59:47.013+12:00I also thank you, Peter (yes - a fascinating "...I also thank you, Peter (yes - a fascinating "twitter exchange"). And agree with you.<br />But am I right then: you do not see blessing committed same-sex couples as a first order question (using that model)?<br /><br />Easter Season Blessings<br /><br />BoscoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60980987690126327592016-04-19T16:02:37.104+12:002016-04-19T16:02:37.104+12:00Well said, Peter. Thank you.
Tim C.Well said, Peter. Thank you.<br /><br />Tim C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com