tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post9189229662281429079..comments2024-03-29T06:58:28.383+13:00Comments on Anglican Down Under: Communion's Cultural Cleavage Rends Asunder What Man Joined TogetherPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-42902972194552546422010-07-07T18:59:31.147+12:002010-07-07T18:59:31.147+12:00Sorry Alison and Howard
No time to try to recompos...Sorry Alison and Howard<br />No time to try to recompose my own lost comments!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-61271310901206023002010-07-07T18:58:52.700+12:002010-07-07T18:58:52.700+12:00[REPOSTED]
Thanks Peter
Following your points, he...[REPOSTED]<br />Thanks Peter<br /><br />Following your points, hence, do you think it was right and God's will to execute homosexuals (Lev 20:13) from the time of Moses until the New Testament period? Did God change his mind after that? Or do you think that Lev 20:13 was wrong? If not, how could it have been right at one stage and wrong later?<br /><br />A similar question in relation to Jeffrey John: you know that previously for the Archbishop of Canterbury that even Jeffrey John's claim of celibacy was not "good enough". Why has there been a shift in the ABC's position?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-23700978082352073162010-07-07T18:58:00.424+12:002010-07-07T18:58:00.424+12:00[REPOSTED]
“"kill gays" legislation will...[REPOSTED]<br />“"kill gays" legislation will not be proven to be wisdom from above”<br /><br />So the Bible is wrong (Lev 20:13) http://hermdownunder.blogspot.com/2010/07/further-note-re-leviticus-and-1.html<br /><br />I am not sure why you think you can speak for “conservatives” as accepting celibate homosexuals for ordination. The Catholic Church, with a far greater number of conservatives (and numbers matter to you), does not allow celibate homosexuals to be ordained.<br /><br />AlisonPeter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-77751463947293031772010-07-07T18:53:05.404+12:002010-07-07T18:53:05.404+12:00[REPOSTED]
cont'd - from Howard Pilgrim
3. I ...[REPOSTED]<br />cont'd - from Howard Pilgrim<br /><br />3. I like your diverging ships analogy, and prefer it to plate tectonics which suggests that the forces driving us apart are beyond human control. My reason is that we are not talking about vast, unrelated social systems heading in different directions. People with conservative beliefs about sexuality are found in every society, as are people of different sexual orientation. Those African and Asian "prelates and princes", for example, have people in the engine rooms of the ships they command who may be far from happy at the direction their ships are heading, but know better than to express their opinions right now. A few are speaking up them, bravely, but not getting much attention worldwide. Is there any prospect of mutiny, or even a peaceable take over from among the lower ranks on those ships? Maybe. If the conservatives in the USA can have a go, so might liberals in Africa.<br /><br />4. As for the Catholic Church, which you say "does not allow celibate homosexuals to be ordained" ... where was your head when you wrote that gem? Perhaps you might care to restate your point, with due regard for the principle of honesty (see 1. above).<br /><br />Lest I convey a wrong impression with these four reservations, let me say again that I think you have giving voice to some truths we are all just beginning to grasp together, and that your clarity of purpose in reporting back as you have is admirable. Well done, Peter - as an organiser of the hui, you have much to be proud of.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74124999486586127682010-07-07T18:50:58.148+12:002010-07-07T18:50:58.148+12:00[REPOSTED]
Hi Peter,
After finding the hui both in...[REPOSTED]<br />Hi Peter,<br />After finding the hui both intense and exhausting, I took a long weekend off these issues to recharge my batteries, having noted that your reporting on the hui's process was admirable, especially in your "Very Fruitful Thursday" post. I would now like to add a few points to the subsequent discussion.<br /><br />1. The impact of two respected academics testifying to their experiences as gay Christians was felt by all present and, as you reported, has shifted the grounds of discussion, at least for those of us who were present. Nevertheless, it is significant that many other gay and lesbian participants did not yet feel it was safe to add their voices to that public testimony. A bottom aspirational line for me is a church in which "don't ask, don't tell" is no longer the ruling principle for clergy or laity. A church in which it is unsafe to speak honestly is seriously compromised in its claim to embody Christ.<br /><br />2. For me, the issue in contention has much more to do with truth than pastoral care. This is all about the faith once delivered to the saints, as distinguished from the faith once understood by the saints. What is the truth we share in Christ? What is the true nature of holiness? What is right and wrong in regard to sexuality? These questions define the heart of our discussion, and the reason it is such hard work. Deeply held convictions characterise both sides in this dialogue. Let's not belittle ourselves by saying otherwise. [to be cont'd]Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-74457206397285576552010-07-07T18:20:47.198+12:002010-07-07T18:20:47.198+12:00Hi Alison (and Howard)
I do not know why the comme...Hi Alison (and Howard)<br />I do not know why the comments here have gotten lost.<br />I may have a moment later to attempt to repost them.<br />Cheers<br />PeterPeter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-1487660150549921322010-07-07T18:13:06.936+12:002010-07-07T18:13:06.936+12:00Is there a reason why I cannot see any of the comm...Is there a reason why I cannot see any of the comments to this post?<br /><br />AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41219722916346024172010-07-06T14:57:38.323+12:002010-07-06T14:57:38.323+12:00Hi Howard,
It was Alison not me who wrote, "T...Hi Howard,<br />It was Alison not me who wrote, "The Catholic Church ... does not allow celibate homosexuals to be ordained". However I believe this statement to be true, though I do not know what link to send you to for confirmation. The idea (as I understand it) is that the Catholic church has enough troubles re its priests and their sexuality that it is cutting down one line of potential trouble by (as far as it is able) not ordaining any homosexuals. But if Alison and I are wrong in this understanding ... please point us to the chapter and verse which applies!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-7388953200218977002010-07-06T14:52:33.138+12:002010-07-06T14:52:33.138+12:00From Howard Pilgrim: [for some reason I cannot pub...From Howard Pilgrim: [for some reason I cannot publish this in the usual way]<br /><br /><br />Hi Peter,<br />After finding the hui both intense and exhausting, I took a long weekend off these issues to recharge my batteries, having noted that your reporting on the hui's process was admirable, especially in your "Very Fruitful Thursday" post. I would now like to add a few points to the subsequent discussion.<br /><br />1. The impact of two respected academics testifying to their experiences as gay Christians was felt by all present and, as you reported, has shifted the grounds of discussion, at least for those of us who were present. Nevertheless, it is significant that many other gay and lesbian participants did not yet feel it was safe to add their voices to that public testimony. A bottom aspirational line for me is a church in which "don't ask, don't tell" is no longer the ruling principle for clergy or laity. A church in which it is unsafe to speak honestly is seriously compromised in its claim to embody Christ.<br /><br />2. For me, the issue in contention has much more to do with truth than pastoral care. This is all about the faith once delivered to the saints, as distinguished from the faith once understood by the saints. What is the truth we share in Christ? What is the true nature of holiness? What is right and wrong in regard to sexuality? These questions define the heart of our discussion, and the reason it is such hard work. Deeply held convictions characterise both sides in this dialogue. Let's not belittle ourselves by saying otherwise. <br /><br />3. I like your diverging ships analogy, and prefer it to plate tectonics which suggests that the forces driving us apart are beyond human control. My reason is that we are not talking about vast, unrelated social systems heading in different directions. People with conservative beliefs about sexuality are found in every society, as are people of different sexual orientation. Those African and Asian "prelates and princes", for example, have people in the engine rooms of the ships they command who may be far from happy at the direction their ships are heading, but know better than to express their opinions right now. A few are speaking up them, bravely, but not getting much attention worldwide. Is there any prospect of mutiny, or even a peaceable take over from among the lower ranks on those ships? Maybe. If the conservatives in the USA can have a go, so might liberals in Africa.<br /><br />4. As for the Catholic Church, which you say "does not allow celibate homosexuals to be ordained" ... where was your head when you wrote that gem? Perhaps you might care to restate your point, with due regard for the principle of honesty (see 1. above).<br /><br />Lest I convey a wrong impression with these four reservations, let me say again that I think you have giving voice to some truths we are all just beginning to grasp together, and that your clarity of purpose in reporting back as you have is admirable. Well done, Peter - as an organiser of the hui, you have much to be proud of.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-55232254624178078262010-07-06T14:49:22.063+12:002010-07-06T14:49:22.063+12:00Hi Alison,
It was not God's will to execute ho...Hi Alison,<br />It was not God's will to execute homosexuals for being homosexuals, but it was God's will to set out rules for living, in particular for Israel living its life as God's holy people in distinction from the ways of the surrounding nations. A number of offences against those rules had severe consequences, including the reviling of mothers and fathers, along with offenders against rule for sexual behaviour.<br /><br />It could be that God changed his mind. It could be that the circumstances of Israel changed in relation to God's plan for all humanity such that the severe punishments of the Levitical laws could be lightened. Such punishments as written down serve to imprint the seriousness of the need to live a holy life. A seriousness that certain children these days do not understand!<br /><br />I am not sure what is going on in the ABC's mind but I imagine that one thing which is different in 2010 from the ill-fated venture re St Albans is that some aspects of the Anglican ether are of a different emotional temperature ...Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-9802636899455820372010-07-06T13:48:46.774+12:002010-07-06T13:48:46.774+12:00Thanks Peter
Following your points, hence, do you...Thanks Peter<br /><br />Following your points, hence, do you think it was right and God's will to execute homosexuals (Lev 20:13) from the time of Moses until the New Testament period? Did God change his mind after that? Or do you think that Lev 20:13 was wrong? If not, how could it have been right at one stage and wrong later?<br /><br />A similar question in relation to Jeffrey John: you know that previously for the Archbishop of Canterbury that even Jeffrey John's claim of celibacy was not "good enough". Why has there been a shift in the ABC's position?<br /><br />AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-45463709943427929912010-07-06T12:19:40.074+12:002010-07-06T12:19:40.074+12:00Hi Alison,
All Christians proposing legislation fo...Hi Alison,<br />All Christians proposing legislation for the execution of people for sexual offences (however defined) should engage with numerous New Testament (and Old Testament) texts speaking of mercy, and in particular with John 8:1-11, in respect of whether Jesus endorsed each and every aspect of the prescribed punishments of the Mosaic law. My suggestion, which you may disagree with, is that "kill gays" legislation will not be proven to be wisdom from above in the light of the New Testament.<br /><br />It is not so much that the Bible is "wrong" but that some changes take place in the course of biblical history. The challenge for contemporary interpreters is to prayerfully discern which things in the Bible remain pertinent to life and which either no longer do so, or do not apply to particular circumstances.<br /><br />I am guilty of insufficient precision. Probably of other offences too. "conservatives" in the context of ADU is generally speaking "conservative Anglicans". But I take your implied point, there will be many conservative Anglicans around the globe who share with their Roman counterparts an unwillingness to permit any homosexuals to be ordained. My comments refer to those conservatives who have argued for the distinction between orientation and practice, and in doing so have argued that the former combined with celibacy is not a problem.<br /><br />Perhaps the Jeffrey John situation will prove that even celibacy is not "good enough".Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-73901086139717553312010-07-06T11:06:51.231+12:002010-07-06T11:06:51.231+12:00“"kill gays" legislation will not be pro...“"kill gays" legislation will not be proven to be wisdom from above”<br /><br />So the Bible is wrong (Lev 20:13) http://hermdownunder.blogspot.com/2010/07/further-note-re-leviticus-and-1.html<br /><br />I am not sure why you think you can speak for “conservatives” as accepting celibate homosexuals for ordination. The Catholic Church, with a far greater number of conservatives (and numbers matter to you), does not allow celibate homosexuals to be ordained.<br /><br />AlisonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com