tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.comments2024-03-19T16:52:19.962+13:00Anglican Down UnderPeter Carrellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comBlogger37207125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-9371319131108661952024-03-19T16:05:38.682+13:002024-03-19T16:05:38.682+13:00I find it interesting that some Christians reject ...I find it interesting that some Christians reject the more nasty or indefensible verses or dogmas while still holding onto some core belief. Many will boldly describe themselves as reasonable based on how little of their religion they still embrace versus how much they really reject. I think it's ironic when people realise the less you believe the more reasonable you are, but they stop before they reach the logical conclusion.<br /><br />Shalom, GusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-58268332330992972172024-03-13T12:56:34.591+13:002024-03-13T12:56:34.591+13:00Thought-provoking, +Peter! Thank you.
Last year b...Thought-provoking, +Peter! Thank you.<br /><br />Last year because of natural law comments at ADU I did try to learn something about it and came away with two impressions. (i) it *can* be used as a strict framework re right and wrong, at times seemingly very harsh and inflexible. (ii) it can also be used as common ground to facilitate discussion re morality involving diverse participants (without needing to defer to scripture which may offend some participants).<br /><br />One particular website (NZ Catholic, The Nathaniel Centre/bioethics) is the most helpful resource I've found for my learner level. The article (John Kleinsman, 2005) provides a useful intro and then describes how "in the history of the Catholic tradition two interpretations of natural law have dominated." The explanation of these made me realise it's not just one way of thinking!<br /><br />I've selected a paragraph to quote, the italics were in the source, to illustrate how there appears to be acceptance that change needs to be taken into account and this increases the level of difficulty:<br /><br />Quote.<br />Commenting on the way in which natural law operates, Gerard S. Sloyan (1990, pp. 58-59) writes: "The natural law has sometimes wrongly been proposed as indicating how people must choose in facing quite specific moral dilemmas ... a certitude is assumed concerning the natural law that can only be provided by a long and deep reflection on the implications of the teachings of Jesus and the apostolic age." What this means, in terms of the Catholic-Christian moral tradition, is that <i>natural law functions more as an approach to discovering moral value than as a body of established and specific content</i>. One of the consequences of embracing a more dynamic understanding of 'nature' and 'natural' is that it does become more difficult to 'know' exactly what the natural law proposes.<br />Unquote.<br /><br />Title: Christian Moral Argument and Natural Law "Faith and Reason" or "Faith vs. Reason"<br />http://www.nathaniel.org.nz/13-bioethical-issues/what-is-bioethics/128-christian-moral-argument-and-natural-law-qfaith-and-reasonq-or-qfaith-vs-reasonqLiz C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-16467956784066348042024-02-29T14:37:26.359+13:002024-02-29T14:37:26.359+13:00Because of both Christian history and world cultur...Because of both Christian history and world cultural history, I'd suggest that the person you are hoping for Peter would need to have an undeniable, deep, and authentic experience of God (so they are not just words in the wind), as well as a life of exemplary service, of walking the talk... someone like Desmond Tutu, Gandhi, the Dalai Llama, or even Pope Francis....<br /><br />*as well as* appealing intellectually and heartfully to a large cross-section of the Christian world. Mark Murphynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8290053410349382032024-02-26T12:45:26.657+13:002024-02-26T12:45:26.657+13:00Thank you +Peter for your thought-provoking and he...Thank you +Peter for your thought-provoking and helpful post.<br /><br />"knowledge" .. "human experience" .. "divine revelation"<br /><br />The situation in Alabama (the Supreme Court declared fertilized frozen embryos are people) illustrates how a particular theological perspective has big implications for people, especially if theology drives legal decisions.<br /><br />The [dominion] theology influenced Chief Justice...<br />https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alabama-justice-embryos-biblical-seven-mountains-rcna139969<br /><br />Parker wrote that Alabama had adopted a “theologically based view of the sanctity of life” and that “life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God.” To support his legal opinion, Parker repeatedly cited the book of Genesis, including a passage asserting that all people are created in God’s image.<br /><br />Perspective of a Texas cancer survivor...<br />WaPo gift article: https://wapo.st/3uVNk5H<br /><br />“I grew up in Catholic school, and my mom is a Catholic activist, so I have been very familiar with this kind of fetal personhood movement for a long time,” Madeline said. But she noted that individuals within the movement, including her mother, often have trouble reconciling their antiabortion beliefs with their support for fertility treatments — including her own.<br /><br />“They can’t quite connect the cognitive dissonance that exists between the pro-life views and what they imply,” Madeline said.<br />Liz C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-90651073128042992292024-02-22T13:31:24.489+13:002024-02-22T13:31:24.489+13:00I see what you are saying, Liz, but I don't th...I see what you are saying, Liz, but I don't think my proposal is about "top down" in the usual sense: Paul, for example, was NOT one of the pillars of the church of his day!<br /><br />My concept is about someone whose theological/missional vision is both informed by and puts into well-formed expression what the people of God are thinking; and this person may not be a priest or bishop or currently tenured professor - they might be an Amos of our day; or a Tolstoy; or a St. Francis; etc.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-10923032331418978782024-02-22T13:25:43.751+13:002024-02-22T13:25:43.751+13:00A bit of wondering.....
I read something Bosco Pe...A bit of wondering.....<br /><br />I read something Bosco Peters posted today [1] from a letter written by C.S. Lewis. And Lewis was writing about variations in liturgy.. "the Liturgical Fidget" as he terms it (!) But the last part of the final paragraph set me wondering:<br /><br /><i>The shepherds go off, “every one to his own way” and vanish over diverse points of the horizon. If the sheep huddle patiently together and go on bleating, might they finally recall the shepherds? (Haven’t English victories sometimes been won by the rank and file in spite of the generals?)…</i><br /><br />I can't help <i>wondering</i> if there's something a bit different than a <i>top-down</i> focus on "a theologian-missioner who can lead a renewal of our global Christian mind", i.e. to turn that model upside-down. A grassroots approach to problems right from the get-go (but with support and guidance of church clergy/theologians/missioners to enable a productive process).<br /><br />[1] https://liturgy.co.nz/cs-lewis-on-liturgy<br />Liz C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-41574451154895595552024-02-22T09:09:39.379+13:002024-02-22T09:09:39.379+13:00Sorry, that was me, Mark....I'm still getting ...Sorry, that was me, Mark....I'm still getting used to posting here again...<br /><br />A theological step in the right direction would be for Christians to return to, coalesce around, and reform their theology and practice in terms of the original doctrine of "universalism" as applied to salvation, of which Origen was an early proponent. <br /><br />The fear of burning in hell forever, or missing out on heaven, has kept so many of us bound in an inwardly fearful, outwardly aggressive faith, and hardened our hearts to full immersion and trust in the goodness of God.<br /><br />See the recent documentary *Love Unrelenting*, which interviews many notable theologians across the three major positions ('traditionalist', 'annihilationist'', and 'universalist')...<br /><br />https://youtu.be/b-09mmIzgfA?si=jZonqwJQHAdOFYQt<br /><br /><br /><br />Mark Murphynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-84190542708189363682024-02-22T08:50:45.974+13:002024-02-22T08:50:45.974+13:00Hello Anonymous (please give a name next time)
Lik...Hello Anonymous (please give a name next time)<br />Like with Liz's comment above, I will try to work a response to your point above into my next post.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-76486543697799252832024-02-22T07:53:15.752+13:002024-02-22T07:53:15.752+13:00Peter, I look forward to further reports from your...Peter, I look forward to further reports from your Origen explorations. A fascinating and sprawling Church Father. I'd be interested to hear what you discover.<br /><br />In terms of "universalism" and our contemporary age, I might see this question a little differently: we live in a time of unprecedented knowledge and contact between the great faiths. We can no longer claim ignorance of what other religions believe and practice, nor be in any doubt the people full of grace, truth, and with a deep, sincere commitment to God exist outside the boundaries of the Christian churches. <br /><br />The ocean of grace has many shores.<br /><br />For the sake of God, truth, and love, we need unifying, mainstream Christian voices that move us beyond hostility, limited conceptions of infinity (God), or merely thinking of our own patch (i.e. Christianity). The need for such a voice, in terms of current political and religious violence, is even more urgent and necessary. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-32578348270108520382024-02-21T10:44:30.656+13:002024-02-21T10:44:30.656+13:00Thanks Liz
I might take your question/s up in the ...Thanks Liz<br />I might take your question/s up in the next post, suffice to say for now:<br />- we should not wait for a new Paul/Origen before we clean up our own eccelsiastical backyard - and become more like Christ;<br />- we do not need to a new Paul/Origen in order to re-acquaint ourselves with things which used to be very obvious to us and which now seem strangely neglected and forgotten.<br />In short: I agree with you above!<br /><br />The possibility of a Paul/Origen for our day concerns a better/bigger articulation of the gospel for today's world which draws Christians together in a new focus of godly, missional endeavour. It's a vision thing which might better lead us to deal with the details of Christian living.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-8692873430987493402024-02-20T13:52:49.538+13:002024-02-20T13:52:49.538+13:00Perhaps because I don't regularly attend churc...Perhaps because I don't regularly attend church and I'm not academic, I also don't understand why we need "a new Paul/Origen for our day".. I concede I have a limited view! I think the answers are already out there, shared every day by the people who've either left the church altogether or who've felt the need to change denominations such as (notably) Beth Moore, Russell Moore. I wrote the following with the many stories in mind that I've read recently where people have felt estranged from their churches and have had to leave due to what I might term "systemic un-Christlikeness" (a term I've made up!) or who perhaps remain in their church and advocate for change.<br /><br />Renewal of our global Christian mind needs renewal of our global Christian heart! +Peter, you did a post a while ago about unity and need for humility.. that has to be a good start. Reaching out to <i>all</i> means to welcome <i>all</i> and offer safe refuge, friendship, love, understanding and true justice. Universalism of Christianity might look like warmth of caring across racial and gender divides and across class, being informed about systemic injustice and power inequities, commitment to maintaining safe space for all. Diversity in leadership. Leaders of wisdom and character. Responsiveness. Transparency and accountability. Clear moral and behavioural expectations (and in the event of wrongdoing, a just response). When things go wrong.. holding leaders accountable for their actions and provision of practical and pastoral support for survivors/advocates. Learning from mistakes. Commitment to truth, and growing a healthy inclusive community. Integrity, courage and strength to resist divisiveness and power plays!<br /><br />I mostly wrote this last night but this afternoon I came across an article, <i>Can American Congregations Learn To Embrace The Uncoupled?</i> and it features various viewpoints (evangelical and mainline) on thinking more broadly re inclusiveness i.e. more than just a traditional family focus, and I think it helps to illustrate what I'm driving at.<br /><br />https://julieroys.com/can-american-congregations-learn-to-embrace-single-uncoupled/<br />Liz C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-88686934879759950432024-02-12T09:31:53.937+13:002024-02-12T09:31:53.937+13:00Democracy's currently in a perilous position. ...Democracy's currently in a perilous position. If +Peter's ok with it I'm sharing a GIFT article from <i>The Washington Post</i> from my Inbox this morning. It throws some light on the complex situation in US RW-politics. Mitch McConnell tried to secure Ukraine funding.. BU.. so many twists and turns, and outside influences (Trump, Tucker, Fox, etc). Two paragraphs from the (lengthy) article:<br /><br />McConnell, who is the longest-serving leader in Senate history, describes himself as a “longtime observer and foe” of Russia and prides himself on being involved in efforts to expand the NATO alliance to protect former Soviet Union countries from any expansionist aspirations on the part of Vladimir Putin.<br /><br />But he also realizes that many Republican base voters — and lawmakers — do not see the world the same way he does. An “America First” view of the world spearheaded by Trump has overtaken the Ronald Reagan “Peace through Strength” mantra that McConnell believes in.<br /><br />GIFT Link: https://wapo.st/3HWmv4n<br />Liz C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-5493694825073247722024-02-10T18:58:23.643+13:002024-02-10T18:58:23.643+13:00Interesting Liz!Interesting Liz!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-29909511753808230912024-02-10T18:45:42.719+13:002024-02-10T18:45:42.719+13:00This post is very timely for me, thank you +Peter....This post is very timely for me, thank you +Peter. Also, I enjoyed Phil Groves' essay. Following a link from one of his footnotes, I found myself at <i>Inclusive Anglicans</i>. There I came across 'Recovering the evangelical heart' by David Runcorn (08 Dec 23)*. What he shared about John Stott really helps me, and it was also a welcome surprise to find he'd referenced your response as Bishop of Christchurch as a worthy example.. so then I read your article of Jun/Oct '23 at the same website, and found that very helpful too.<br /><br />It's not the specific issue so much as <i>how to find a way through</i> when one's views don't fit neatly with the laws/rules 'way' <i>or</i> with more liberal/progressive views. I'd become kind of paralysed, not knowing how to move forward but now after reading these essays I can imagine it's not impossible! Thanks ~Liz *https://www.inclusiveevangelicals.com/post/recovering-the-evangelical-heartLiz C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-65621043399875402002024-02-10T07:58:48.609+13:002024-02-10T07:58:48.609+13:00David Bentley Hart - on reading the Bible
https:...David Bentley Hart - on reading the Bible <br /><br />https://youtu.be/BVPr2FZlR_A?si=1TfZQpXpLzJ94LPL<br /><br />(or "the folly of treating the literal level as the place where the Holy Spirit comes to meet us...")Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-68446077218942537062024-02-08T09:17:29.676+13:002024-02-08T09:17:29.676+13:00Thank you Mark and Liz for comments of great inter...Thank you Mark and Liz for comments of great interest - translations do vary (a bit)!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-40184122699099956172024-02-08T06:34:32.286+13:002024-02-08T06:34:32.286+13:00Incidentally, the vast majority of Quakers are now...Incidentally, the vast majority of Quakers are now from the "Evangelical" stream (as opposed to the Conservative stream and Liberal stream), live in Kenya, and do have formally appointed, set-aside ministers. (NZ Quakers are all in the Liberal tradition).<br /><br />George Fox did not begin hostile to the priesthood - in fact, he visited as many he could (Anglicans, Baptists etc), but found them unable to speak to his spiritual depression. One vicar told him to sing more Psalms and smoke tobacco to calm his spirits. Another was more promising but flew into a rage when Fox accidentally stepped into his flower bed.<br /><br />This enabled Fox to discover Christ directly, and within - he famously heard a voice saying "There is one, even Christ Jesus, who can speak to your condition" - thus setting the Quaker pattern. <br /><br />Early Quakers believed that the joyous, guiding, liberating presence of Christ that they directly experienced was the second coming - a coming of Christ within - and that this did away or interiorized the outward trappings of the old, "meantime" church (including sacraments and priests). They believed they were experiencing the new covenant of Jeremiah 31 - of a people with a law written in their hearts (or "inward parts"), and with no need of formal teachers or intermediaries. <br /><br />Evangelical Quakers are a later growth, and adopt many aspects of evangelical Protestantism, including (for some) water baptism, creedal statements, hymns, ministers or pastors, and, the primacy of scripture over experience and corporate discernment.<br /><br />Peter, you maybe ineterested to observe that, in world Quakerism, the Conservatives stand in between the Evangelicals on one side and the Liberals on the other. In other words, they have a via media quality to them.Mark Murphynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-90588626039663982532024-02-07T19:40:04.355+13:002024-02-07T19:40:04.355+13:00I like the title of the post! Good one.
In the Th...I like the title of the post! Good one.<br /><br />In the The South (US), "orthodoxy" held the view that scripture/theology supported slavery - and the Civil War's been described by some as a <i>theological war</i>. I was a bit shocked when I first read about it.. the orthodox Christian Confederate states. It impacted how I feel about the word.<br /><br />Enjoyed reading your thoughts about trying other translations, Mark!<br /><br />~Liz (aka MsLiz)Liz C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-13499594714560759502024-02-07T10:27:55.462+13:002024-02-07T10:27:55.462+13:00This holiday I found a large print copy of the “Ne...This holiday I found a large print copy of the “New English Bible” (that one with the cross, vines, and olive branch engraving of the cover) in the bach where we were staying. I was seduced by its elegant and slightly different rendering of Ecclesiastes – “Emptiness, all is emptiness, says the teacher”, and read on. <br /><br />I was so impressed with the literary values of this edition – the eventual translation was run past literary experts as much as it was run past Old and New Testament scholars. So I used some Christmas money to buy and explore some other “literary” versions – Robert Alter’s crisp translations of Song of Songs and the Wisdom books (Job, Ecclesiastes, Proverbs) as Hebrew poetry, E.V. Rieu’s slightly disappointing (in the sense of being quite conventional) translation of the Gospels (I prefer his poems for children), the Revised English Bible (I prefer the un-revised version!), and, most exciting of all, Sarah Ruden’s The Gospels: A New Translation. <br /><br />Ruden, a Quaker and esteemed Greek translator, makes the Gospels sound strange – staking her translation on being as plain and direct as possible (Quaker values) and being as true to the Greek as possible (she previously translated Virgil, Homer etc). Some of her translations really don’t work for me – “In the Beginning was the Word”, becomes (for well stated reasons) “At the Inauguration was the True Account”. But they made me stop, pause, think again - *open again*. For those of us who are very used to hearing the Bible (or this or that version of it) it is useful to hear it again, as something quite other and strange.<br /><br />Ruden’s translation of the Spirit as “the life-breath” (and in some place “the holy life-breath”) is a version I have found comforting, challenging, satisfying, and unsatisfying all at once. Ruden has John describes Jesus as being filled with more life-breath than any other human being.<br /> <br />The effect of reading these different translations, and exposing myself to new versions, has been to see “the Bible” as something much *looser* than I have been taught, and certainly not as a singular book or personality (“The Bible says this”, “The Bible offers this”) laying down universal lays (around sex, worship, doctrines of God, formulas for how the church should be structured and led). I’ve come to see Jesus’s words – or the particular English version I have in my head – in a much looser way. To not be as committed to Jesus as ‘the Word’ (and certainly not as ‘the Inauguration’ either!). To not be as committed to Jesus as "Jesus - Ruden uses "Iesous" throughout. To not be as committed to the Spirit as the Spirit, or the Spirit as the life-breath either. This also doesn’t mean giving up these meanings altogether, but holding them more lightly as “the truth”. Isn’t that the paradox of representation at the heart of our faith, at the heart of monotheism? <br /> <br />Ruden is well aware that even though she is committed to being true to the Greek language of the Gospels as much as possible, those Greek words are still another translation of the original Aramaic (probably). <br /><br />I find myself somewhat freed from the obsessive endevour I (and no doubt others) get involved in – to work out the precise meaning of an (English, Greek, Aramaic) word, as if that is the path to “knowing” God. And yet I feel strangely renewed, too, in an enduring sense that there is an underlying reality – a stream of creative, life-giving sound, a mysterious “book” in which all of our names are written – that all these authors, gospel writers, and translators are attempting to describe, or at least describe their experience of. It hasn’t stopped speaking, and if it did, the world would probably cease to exist.<br /><br />Mark<br />Mark Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499278196265491516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-70473084566033107482024-02-06T17:32:49.824+13:002024-02-06T17:32:49.824+13:00Sorry, don't intend to be anonymous....that la...Sorry, don't intend to be anonymous....that last post on Waitangi is from me, Mark. Mark Murphynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-46552665901847261752024-02-06T13:29:08.648+13:002024-02-06T13:29:08.648+13:00Kia ora tātou dear Anglican Down Unders. I watched...Kia ora tātou dear Anglican Down Unders. I watched the beautiful Waitangi Day dawn service on RNZ this morning. Dr Alistair Reese delivered a magnificent sermon that brought me to tears. Authentic NZ public theology. Sermon begins at 30:16....<br />https://www.youtube.com/live/tAViXNRuj08?si=ydnrqM-3xWgy-zkx<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-60865225804087474282024-02-01T10:27:33.295+13:002024-02-01T10:27:33.295+13:00Hi +Peter,
I for one agree with your suggestions...Hi +Peter, <br /><br />I for one agree with your suggestions at the end of this post. I was blessed enough to attend a multi-denominational church under an Anglican umbrella once upon a time, and the blessing was that the denomination aspects paled into insignificance….and yet we so benefited from the different strengths people had gained under each branch of Christianity. As surely as we are part of one body, I enjoyed once hearing Fr. Cantamalessa apply this to the Japanese soldier after WWII in the Solomon’s who kept on fighting a war that did not exist for decades. In my generation (and I am not young!) I find most people identify as Christian rather than a denomination, in the younger ones they hardly know what a denomination or as they frequently put it a ‘domination’ is…. <br /><br />To do as you say, purposefully focus ecumenically on how God is working in each church, support and encouraging one another, I can only see as step forward for all; as all need building up. I see the logic in seperate administrations/structures of denominations, eek who would want the role of combining all that admin, as much as I see no harm but only benefit in multiple styles of worship. There are parts of different dominations theology or practice I don’t quite agree with, and there are parts of Anglicanism I don’t quite agree with, and they make for interesting debate and discussion albeit I think making them the main focus detracts from the greater calling.<br /><br /><br /><br />Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling<br />P.s. 133 How wonderful and pleasant it is when brothers live together in harmony!<br />2 For harmony is as precious as the anointing oil that was poured over Aaron’s head, that ran down his beard and onto the border of his robe.<br />3 Harmony is as refreshing as the dew from Mount Hermon that falls on the mountains of Zion. And there the LORD has pronounced his blessing, even life everlasting.Jeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-16299894089931408162024-01-31T12:11:22.905+13:002024-01-31T12:11:22.905+13:00Dear William. I am wondering also if your linguist...Dear William. I am wondering also if your linguistic arguments actually hold up. <br />How many phonemes were added to the (Old) English phoneme inventory through the large scale borrowing you mention? One? Two? More than two? Doesn't this sort of contradict your claim about the number of phonemes being an issue?<br />Yes, in the languages of the world Maori has a smallish number of phonemes. But English has an 'average' number. The number of phonemes is not at all relevant to people being able to communicate.<br />Yes English speakers can use a variety of sounds -- as can any human being. But don't most English speakers treat 'loch' and 'lock' as homophones? So is [x] (as in German 'Ich' and Scottish 'loch') a phoneme in English? We also sometimes do use clicks -- 'tsk tsk' ('tut tut').<br />And to support Peter's comment about 'utterly important' sounds. Of a sample of 567 languages, only 220 contrast voiced and voiceless plosives (p/b t/d k/g). These languages are not lacking, just different.<br />Actually (and just slightly tongue-in-cheek) 'Ihu' might be closer phonetically to Jesus' name in Greek than 'Jesus', yes?<br />Peace<br />Bruce SymonsBruce Symonsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-83522180306941088302024-01-31T06:25:09.966+13:002024-01-31T06:25:09.966+13:00Dear William
You are lucky I published your commen...Dear William<br />You are lucky I published your comment - a further one with such pejorativeness against Maori and Te Reo won't get published.<br /><br />No sounds in one language compared to another are "utterly" important. Languages adapt and change. People adapt and change.<br /><br />Many Asians in NZ change the name they wish to be addressed by fellow Kiwis becuase we struggle to pronounce their names. Are they polite? Are we lazy? Is it racist for English-familiar Kiwis not to make more effort to adopt sounds of other languages? These are questions worth discussing but nothing and no one is served re social relations by the kind of put downs you make above.<br /><br />No Maori using Te Reo expects Maori to become the lingua franca of scientific and tehnological discourse in global academia. English won that battle a while ago (further sidelining Latin and French) - but - of course! - it may not win the ware a hundred years from now ... Chinese? Hindi? whi know what will dominate the world in another era.<br /><br />All Maori using Te Reo are deepening their identity as distinctive people within NZ, the South Pacific and the world. No one derides Samoan being used by Samoan congregations, Fijian ... Tongan ... why should not Maori proudly and appropiately continue to use their language in worship, on marae and in other spheres of life.<br /><br />There are more than ten Maori using Te Reo in their worship!<br /><br />Please take care with any response to this comment.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3915617830446943975.post-65654679324093051322024-01-30T19:40:42.960+13:002024-01-30T19:40:42.960+13:00OK, I'll "spell" it out. The issue i...OK, I'll "spell" it out. The issue is not the alphabet but the phonemic range. The phonemic range of English is much, much larger than Maori or any of its related East Polynesian languages.<br />This is because English from the 8th or 9th century has been an expanding, packrat language: first Old Norse, then Norman French, then the vast expansion of Latin and Greek based vocabulary right up to our day when Maori words get adopted into English. And once a word is adopted into English, it becomes an English word and follows English grammar. What is the plural of pizza? Pizzas, not pizze. What is the plural of kiwi? Kiwis, not kiwi. I am perfectly aware that Maori doesn't pluralise nouns, but when I say "tuis" I am not speaking Maori.<br />All the sounds of Arabic, Hebrew, German and Fijian can be found in the varieties of English spoken around the world. Scots can easily make the Germanic 'ch'sound. American English is more rhotic than English English etc. The language isn't tonal like Chinese and Vietnamese (where rising and falling tones give different meanings to the monosyllabic words) but of course we use tones in speaking. <br />What English doesn't have is the click sounds of Xhosa and other southern African (Xhoisan) languages. But maybe some South African English speakers incorporate these sounds into their speech.<br />Since all Maori speakers already speak English, why don't they simply adopt English sounds into Maori? Especially s/sh/z/b/g/v/l/d, which are utterly important sounds. Harete doesn't sound remotely like Charlotte, Ihu is nothing like 'Jesus'. I suspect what happened was that when missionaries reduced Maori to writing and wrote grammars they put the language into aspic and stopped it growing. And subsequent grammarians and lexicographers stuck with that antiquarian approach, treating it essentially as a dead language. <br />As a result the language became more like a museum piece; very important for anthropological and cultural studies of a pre-modern east Polynesian people, but of decreasing importance for real world use. You are not going to find any scholarship- or even simple textbooks- on maths, computing, chemistry, mechanics or medicine in Maori. (Which is true of most traditional languages in the world - Nahuatl, Quichua, Guarani, Omoro and thousands more.) So what is its actual use, given that we don't live in 18th century New Zealand? Ceremonial, not actual - and emotionally significant to people of Maori ancestry. Similar to the way I feel about Scottish Gaelic.<br />What you will find is folkloric and similar material - which fits the anthropological approach to language. What Peter could tell us is how many people attend Maori language church services. Are there many? Ten?<br /><br />Languages live or die according to their usefulness, and if they don't adapt, they either die or have to be put in some protective reserve, like flightless birds. The Gaeltacht is a protective reserve in Ireland - and it is disappearing as nobody wants to live there.<br /><br />The real issue is that the drive to push the language onto monoglot Kiwis is not a response to grassroots feeling but was really political and a powerplay by Jacinda Ardern intended to see off Te Pati Maori - and that has caused an understandable reaction and pushback. Strange to say, politics today is more racially and ethnically 'coloured' than it ever has been in my lifetime, and state subsidy for a language is one of the footballs.<br /><br />Pax et bonum<br />William Greenhalgh Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com