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Monday, June 15, 2026

Who or what is a person?

Last week, posting on AI, I noted a post by Ilia Delio "a Franciscan sister, teacher and writer in an unfinished universe", titled "Are we defending a corpse? Magnifica Humanitas and the Person we no longer are".

Delio's dissection of Magnifica Humanitas is as cutting as any an anatomist might make during an autopsy because she strikes at one of its core concepts, the human person. Thus:

"The encyclical presents AI as the problem. But AI is not the problem. The problem is the human person — specifically, the philosophical and theological categories through which we have defined human personhood, categories that are now so rigid, so fixed, and so incompatible with our actual understanding of reality that they are cracking under the pressure of a world they were never built to describe. By insisting on a traditional Catholic conception of the person as the operative framework for global AI governance, Leo is not defending humanity. He is defending a portrait of humanity that no longer resembles the living thing."

Wow! That is sharp and the next paragraph sharpens up the challenge further:

"The personhood that Magnifica Humanitas seeks to protect is not a generic one. It is a specific philosophical product — the Thomistic synthesis of Aristotelian metaphysics and Christian theology, in which the human person is defined by a rational soul as substantial form, possessing intrinsic dignity derived from being made imago Dei. This is a powerful and coherent framework on its own terms. But its terms are not the terms of the world we now inhabit."

The pointedness of this critque is brought out at the end of the next paragraph which notes consequential problems (if Delio is correct) for Catholic social teaching, based, as it is, on a or the Catholic conception of personhood:

"Everything that follows in Catholic social teaching, including its strong positions on human rights, the inviolability of conscience, and the dignity of labor, flows from this foundational essentialism."

Why does Delio draw out the inherent problem with an Aristotelian/Thomistic definition of personhood? Evolution is the problem/challenge for such thinking and the opportunity for a new conception of the human person:

"Evolution does not offer a different answer to the same question. It dissolves the question. There is no moment in the four-billion-year history of biological life at which “the person” arrived. There is a continuous process of increasing complexity, sociality, and reflective capacity that stretches from the first self-replicating molecules to the beings who are now building machines that think. To insert a substantial form into this process — to say that at some point the rational soul was infused into an animal and personhood was born — is not to reconcile theology with science. It is to use science as scaffolding and then remove it once the theological conclusion is in place."

Delio compliments Teilhard de Chardin and Karl Rahner as 20th century Catholic theologians who permitted evolution to influence their theology of personhood so that they offered:

"genuine attempts to think personhood as a process rather than a given. But neither was permitted to follow the logic all the way, because the logic leads somewhere the tradition cannot go: to the admission that personhood is not a kind of being but a degree of becoming, and that its boundaries are therefore constitutively fuzzy, constitutively relational, and constitutively open. This admission would not merely complicate Catholic anthropology. It would transform it beyond recognition."

Then follows a caustic sledge of Magnifica Humanitas:

"Magnifica Humanitas does not take this step. It acknowledges modern science in the way that a building might acknowledge the weather — by noting its existence, perhaps making some adjustments around the edges, but not allowing it to touch the foundations."

We might say (if following Delio) that Magnifica Humanitas deserves this caustic remark because it fails to understand the effect of evolution as a cause of who we, in fact are, as humanity.

Delio then draws out the challenge which Leo both faces, and makes a good but not decisive response to, about how the dialogue on AI and human personhood he seeks Magnifica Humanitas to be part of fits with the absoluteness of his Thomistic suppositions:

"Leo is aware of this problem. He spends nearly half of Magnifica Humanitas recounting the history of Catholic social teaching precisely in order to forestall the objection that this is a form of institutional imperialism dressed in the language of universal values. The Church, he insists, does not impose but accompanies; it does not dictate but offers the treasury of its tradition to a pluralistic world in a spirit of dialogue.

The problem is that the structure of the encyclical’s argument contradicts this self-presentation. You cannot simultaneously hold that there is one correct account of personhood — derived from a specific metaphysical and theological tradition — and that you are merely offering a perspective in a plural conversation. The insistence on universality and the practice of dialogue are not compatible moves in this context. They require each other’s cancellation."

What, then, might be an acceptable way forward for Delio? She refers to Raimon Panikkar approvingly:

"The philosopher Raimon Panikkar, whose career was devoted to exactly this problem, developed the concept of diatopical hermeneutics as a corrective. Genuine cross-cultural dialogue about foundational concepts like personhood, dignity, and rights must begin, Panikkar argued, from the recognition that each tradition’s starting points are topoi — particular places in conceptual space — and not universals that transcend culture and history. A Buddhist understanding of selfhood, a Confucian understanding of relational personhood, an Indigenous understanding of the human as embedded in a web of cosmic obligations — these are not deficient versions of the Thomistic account, waiting to be corrected by the encyclical’s superior metaphysics. They are different starting points, each of which has developed internally coherent implications.

To anchor global AI governance in one tradition’s account of personhood is not to protect humanity. It is to perform a kind of epistemic colonialism, even when performed with the gentlest of intentions."

Let's come back to these two paragraphs shortly. Delio then looks at how we understand intelligence, and finds there to be less difference between artificial intelligence and human intelligence than Magnifica Humanitas supposes. I pass by the details of that section of her critique. She then writes:

"This experiential, participatory, feedback-driven model of knowledge is far more consonant with what we now understand about cognition, about ecology, about the dynamics of complex systems, and — most urgently — about the relationship between human intelligence and artificial intelligence, than anything the Thomistic tradition can offer. And it points toward a genuinely new understanding of personhood: not as a fixed essence that must be preserved, but as an ongoing process of self-organization within a web of relationships that is itself always in formation."

We are able to become clearer through such a paragraph that a person is more process than fixed entity. The following two paragraphs elucidate exactly where Delio wants theology of personhood to go and how Magnifica Humanitas fails:

"What is worth protecting is not a static human nature but the conditions for human becoming: the capacity for genuine relationship, for error-correction, for the kind of participatory knowing that Bonaventure and Morin both describe, for the experience of being embedded in a web of relationships that extends beyond the individual to include community, ecology, and — on some accounts — cosmos. The new materialisms and the emerging philosophies of panpsychism share with process theology a single crucial insight: primacy belongs not to the isolated substance but to the relationship. The human is not a monad that happens to interact with other monads. The human is constituted by its relationships, and it becomes more fully itself as those relationships deepen and diversify.

AI is one of those relationships now. It is not an alien force threatening a pre-given human essence from outside. It is a new node in the network of relationships through which humanity is continuing to constitute itself. The question is not whether to resist it but how to remain in a genuinely adaptive, feedback-driven, error-correcting relationship with it — how to ensure that the purposes built into it are, in Wiener’s phrase, the purposes we really desire."

If, following the cited paragraphs above you have been thinking, the theological approach here is "process theology", then it is indeed so, "the emerging philosophies of panpsychism share with process theology a single crucial insight: primacy belongs not to the isolated substance but to the relationship."

Now, it is tempting to riposte to Delio's riposte at this point with an "Oh, so you're a process theologian. That means what you say is faulty and I need not engage further" line. To do so would not be fair to her insights about the relationship between evolution and personhood (there is one) and to the possibility that artificial intelligence (appropriately governed) could be friend and complement to human intelligence and thus supportive of our value as persons rather than foe of our personhood.

Further, sitting as I do within the Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia, where various theologies and anthropologies jostle for attentiveness and mutually interact, I acknowledge the important challenge that Maori and Polynesian worldviews pose to some views among Pakeha which have helicoptered their way from the northern hemisphere to the Blessed Isles down under. In particular, we are consistently invited to recognise the importance of relationships in our descriptions of ourselves as human persons: what family do I belong to? Which tribe do I identify with? Who are my ancestors? On what boat or plane did they come to these shores? This is a richer conception of personhood than "I am X and these skills, experiences, attributes and personal testomony make me the amazing individual that I am."

Incidentally, a relationship-based account of the individual person will always be richer than an account of an artificial intelligence "person" who will be, at best, a set of things spread across data centres of the world.

So, there is something in what Delio says which contributes to a larger account of the human person than Magnifica Humanitas offers, but is the latter as wrong as Delio makes out?

Time does not permit me to do a similar setting out of key paragraphs in Magnifica Humanitas' argument and then a to and fro between the two with subsequent declaration of "the winner." So, something a little shorter from me, or even much shorter ...

A strength of Magnifica Humanitas' position, even if the Aristotle/Thomistic line within it is subject to critical condemnation, is that it places all human persons in the equality of being made in the image of God, thus all of intrinsic worth as human beings. This is, of course, a well founded conception in respect of the Bible itself: humankind is made in the image of God, without exception; Christ dies for all and is raised to life for all people, without exception. Jews and Greeks, slave and free, men and women: all are redeemable through Jesus Christ.

If a strength of what Delio offers via the De Chardin, Rahner, Panikkar line is a richer account of who we are as human beings, then a weakness of a more "process" oriented understanding of personhood is that it opens the door to some human beings being treated as more valuable than other human beings. We are evolved creatures, but what if an anthropological line of thought is that the X race is more evolved than the Y race? We are developed and developing persons in an ever changing world, but what if we permit that to offer a new classification of society, into the developed and under developed? (We have enough class differences to battle with without introducing more). We are relational beings and it is right and proper to give an account of ourselves which emphasises the social more than the individual, but what if this leads to a stratification in which those belonging to tribe A are more important than those belonging to tribe B? 

Slavery as an example of humanity dividing persons up into superior and inferior groups based on the perceived differences in the worth of the person is a phenomenon of history which traverses generations and eras, polytheistic and monotheistic religions, European and other cultures, the European Enlightenment and the cultures it influenced, including the United States of America and Polynesian cultures of the South Pacific, including Maori culture.

Within the Christian faith, which line of theological evaluation of the human person offers the better pathway to challenge and abolish divisive approaches to personhood such as slavery?

On that one, I am inclined to foster Magnifica Humanitas (while avoiding assigning it infallible status) rather than Delio's approach with its view that in the former, the person is some kind of theological corpse!

In saying this, I am offering an appreciation of a strength of Magnifica Humanitas and am not offering a "knockdown, take it away from further consideration" argument against what Delio offers. 

In an evolved world, so evolved that it offers artificial intelligence to be whatever we might permit it to be, whether competitor or complement to human intelligence, whether influential on our understanding of personhood (e.g. so that we shift from emphasising the human character of personhood to something broader) and so forth, we can and should engage with a dynamic rather than static understanding of who we are and how we value one another. 

Our greatest care should be - following our Lord's teaching to "love our neighbour as ourselves" and to "love one another" - that we do not consequentially de-value another human being.

In effect, we might offer back to Delio, a Riceour "second naivity" reading of the human person. Sure, "There [was] no moment in the four-billion-year history of biological life at which “the person” arrived. ... [nor should we] say that at some point the rational soul was infused into an animal and personhood was born ... [see full paragraph above]." But that is not the same as saying, looking around us, at my family and your family, at my tribe or race and your tribe or race, at the most intelligent/creative/gifted among us and at the least so, that each person we see is not a person-with-a-soul, meaning not a person to be distinguished from plants and non-human animals. Indeed, with an appropriate definition of soul, and whether or not we envisage a moment of infusion in time past, there is (and as Pope Leo and many would argue) and always will be, a distinction to be made between the human person and the personable machine.



34 comments:

  1. I don't think saying human beings essentially have "rational souls" is a great foundation for equality, Peter. We know how colonizers used that argument to judge and devalue, say, indigenous peoples.

    It's not a good foundation for personhood either: for it leaves out all the other dimensions, or, if you prefer, feedback loops, or circuits, which are human too - e.g. physical experience, sensuous experience, spiritual experience etc.

    Curiously, it fits rather well into AI-mediated subjectivity, which tends towards "an excess of knowledge", while lacking a depth of thinking and experiential "three dimensionality" - as the psychoanalyst Alessandra Lemma has put it.

    Is process theology any better? I like the promise of it, but when I once purchased a book on process theology it was so abstract and, in a way, mathematical, so caught up in system loops and cybernetics, that I immediately put it on the Books for Free table at Quakers.

    So they all feel inadequate to me in terms of personhood: A person in search of a body, a disembodied soul in search of incarnation.

    Rational souls are to be preferred over chatbots as the former possess a sense of otherness and independence that is required for true relationship, dialogue, human becoming.

    But rational souls are lacking eros and desire: they are all Logos and lacking the Life that is attested to in John's Prologue, too; as well as the life and spirit (breath, wind light, radiance, fire) that is part of the Hebrew experience of Wisdom (which is arguably a better way of describing the Word than Logos).

    AI "gratifies desire without friction", and in this sense, according to Lemma, resembles pornography. When real human desire has been toxic, abusive, and objectifying, AI-mediated "conversation" is *safe*. But because it doesn't desire us, and desire is intrinsically good, part of the fabric of love, it represents a "seduction of the void" (Calich) or "prophetic presence" (Lemma) rather than messy, risky relationship in which we are grasped and wrestle with each other and God.

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    1. Should "prothetic presence" not "prophetic"! You need an Other for prophetic!

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  2. A wonderful reflection, thanks, Peter!

    I have long been saying (and writing) that much of Christian thinking too often has taken too little account of significant changing understanding in science. This is expressed so well here as: “It acknowledges modern science in the way that a building might acknowledge the weather — by noting its existence, perhaps making some adjustments around the edges, but not allowing it to touch the foundations.” And the foundations are being washed away!

    Aristotelian/Thomistic philosophy is simply assumed in many conversations I am part of.

    I am delighted to see that panpsychism has entered the conversation. At the very least, it is encouraging if Magnifica Humanitas forces a re-examination of our philosophical models. Your piece (& quoting Sr Ilia Delio) is an encouragement for that. But, I suspect that Aristotelian/Thomistic philosophy will continue to be the defining model – encouraged by Magnifica Humanitas – increasingly distancing Christians from contemporary thinking.

    I am part way through blogging on Magnifica Humanitas; this post will affect my further work on that (I am also preaching on it).

    Blessings

    Bosco

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    1. Is it from a christian perspective though, so hard to see how panpsychism is a ‘thing’, I mean that there is a universal mind behind all things, like God? And does that mean christian thinking hasn’t taken science into consideration or that in more recent decades scientific modalities have become removed from spiritual truth? I cannot escape from Newton’s (hopefully that’s the right spelling) remark on the thumb e.g. the thumb alone would prove to me that God exists.

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  3. At the risk of introducing a red herring, your blog post made me think of McGilchrist’s ‘The Matter with Things’, Volume Two. There is a chapter ‘Purpose, Consciousness and the Cosmos’ where he argues that these elements were present in the origin of the created universe or it could not have developed as it has, into self-conscious humans.
    He embraces panentheism and, I think, would reject panpsychism as too left hemisphere to be the main source of human evolution. Thomist philosophy strikes me as left hemisphere which is what Mark is arguing against so eloquently above!

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  4. Well I haven’t read Pope Leo’s discourse so I can’t comment on that specifically only the reasoning of Delio you outlined in your post +Peter.

    Cannot a human soul be both universal in the sense each person has a soul, and also in dialogue or becoming? Is it not biblical to be created as a living human being alongside being sanctified throughout one’s lifetime?

    In my worldview AI has no soul. Science has no soul. Matter has no soul. Whilst I acknowledge each have worthwhile contributions to life on plant earth (albeit I am still getting to grips with AI!). … I see them as aspects that have arisen in or are part of the creative order rather than being created beings. And as such they can be used for good or for evil by created beings.

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  5. Thanks for your comments! There is a lot to ponder :)

    Jean: although you haven't yet read MH, you have second guessed one point Pope Leo makes, that as human beings in Christ, we are on a continuing journey of grwoth and development as we seek to become more and more like Christ.

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  6. Slavery existed for centuries in New Zealand, along with other horrific abuses of humanity. It was Christian and British colonisation that ended these abuses. If this brought other abuses in its wake, we can only answer that human progress is an endless series of trade offs. The advent of electricity meant that charcoal bunners had to find a new career.
    Delio may be right that evolutionary theory is a defeater of orthodox Christianity. If evolutionary (or at least macro-evolutionary) theory is correct, then it makes no sense to talk about the finality of Christ (despite all of Teilhard's now dated maunderings), posited on the Incarnation as the cosmic event of all history - since human 'nature', on the evolutionary model, is destined to surpass itself and to become something else. Modern Catholic thinking - and certain popes in particular - have been eager to be at peace with the neo-Darwinisn synthesis, and understandably so, you cannot fight on every front. But my recognition long ago that Darwinism sits very uneasily with Christian orthodoxy was the initial source of my scepticism about Darwinism, and my growing familiarity with the critiiques of Stephen Meyer, Michael Behe and James Tour, anong others, along with a growing knowledge of the crises that afflict modern evolutionary thought, have emboldened me to say I seriously doubt its adequacy as an explanation today. Like communism and Freudianism, Darwinism is the product of nineteenth century mechanical atheism, and like the latter two, it is past its sell by date. As Meyer and Bill Dembski have shown, the utterly stupefying complexity of the cell and its processes refutes the desper3ste idea that life developed from the simplest form to its present form by an endless series of errors. And James Tour does something similar in his exploration of Origin of Life studies.
    So, huzzah for the imago Dei and Thomistic personalism! These are the only basis for universial human dignity and rights and our fundamental equality, as the children of God. Atheists and even Kantians really have no answer to this one, since on naturalistic terms, it is plainly absurd to talk about the equality of human beings.
    Pax et bonum
    William Greenhalgh

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  7. "So, huzzah for the imago Dei and Thomistic personalism! These are the only basis for universal human dignity and rights and our fundamental equality, as the children of God"

    Ya, this is the sort of arrogant cultural imperialism that Delio was so right to put her finger on. What, no peace among the peoples if the world until we all become Thomists? Frogs croaking...

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    1. Yes, huzzah for the arrogant cultural imperialism of a Bartolomeo de las Casas who insisted that the American Indian is our brother and sister, possessed of a rational soul and not to be enslaved. (Cue theme music from the opening of 'The Mission'.) Huzzah for Sun Yat-Sen implanting the arrogant western idea of democracy and human rights in Imperial China. Huzzah for David Livingstone in the vanguard of the terrible British colonialist destruction of the Arab slave trade in central and east Africa. Huzzah for the culturally insensitive Sir Charles Napier wiping out suttee in the Raj. Huzzah for the unnamed Maori catechists who shockingly renounced te ao Maori to bringi the message of the Gospel of Luke in the midst of the Musket Wars. None of these except de Las Casas likely ever read a word of St Thomas, but they all understood his essential point.
      Pax et bonum
      William Greenhalgh

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    2. Of course, these achievements are worth celebrating but they are not necessarily a result of Thomist thinking. Any follower of Jesus Christ knows that the law of love for all people is the way to engage with others.
      But in encounters with new and different cultures, there can be many misunderstandings of what to change and what to retain. Every missionary movement has both pluses and minuses because we are people in the process of becoming like Christ!

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  8. Delio is kind of a Doubting Thomist!?

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    1. I suspect she is more of a Wondering Franciscan. I don't think Franciscans ever had much time for Thomas - you know how Italians are towards those who come from a different paese. Clearly a very smart lady. Sometimes those who wonder wander. What is the difference between an explorer and someone who is lost? Getting safely home, I suppose.
      Pax et bonum
      William Greenhalgh

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  9. Further, unless you believe in something like dual substance personalism (body-soul union), it becomes pretty difficult to believe in post-mortem survival and a future resurrection (re-embodiment) of the person. But since these are exactly what the New Testament teaches, either they are true or they are defeated by evolutionary theory, which has an exclusively physicalist understanding of consciousness as the epiphenomena of the brain. That last statement probably needs some modification in the light of recent studies that seem to locate cognition more generally through the body. That said, I have come to think of the body-soul relationship as analagous to a pianist and her piano. The musicality is entirely within the pianist but can only be expressed through her instrument.
    Finally, let us remember the relativity (!) of scientific theories. Science depends on models which do work, sometimes spectacularly well, within certain parameters. Newtonian physics does explain the universe very well, but not when it comes to the very fast and the very small - which are respectively the realm of special relativity, with its better account of gravity, and quantum mechanics, the world of the sub-atomic. Evolutionism is also a model (which is observable in the mutation of new virus strains) but how far does it reallly succeed as an (or the) explanation?
    Pax et bonum
    William Greenhalgh

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  10. Ha! So am I! I grant that Jesus Christ is and was the fullness of the ‘imago dei’, but there are hints in Scripture that he was in the process of becoming too. He ‘learned obedience through what he suffered’, which I don’t think was solely Gethsemane. He moved from ‘my Father’ at 12 to ‘our Father’ in his adulthood. He went ‘only to the lost sheep of Israel’ in Matthew but healed the Syro-Phoenician woman’s daughter when challenged in Luke.
    He was also so much more than a ‘rational soul’ and encompassed all that Mark described in his first post.
    Definitions so easily harden and divide and
    I seem to remember that Thomas had an encounter with God that meant he felt all that he had written was like straw in the presence of the Lord!
    Maybe we are still learning what the ‘imago dei’ can be for us by the grace of God.

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    1. Moya, if you follow through, you may find yourself agreeing with the episcopal Ghost in hell in chapter 5 of Lewis's The Grest Divorce who announces he is giving a paper to the local theological group there: "I'm going to point out how people always forget that Jesus (here the Ghost bowed) was a comparatively young man when he died. He would have outgrown some of his earlier views, you know, if he'd lived... What a different Christianity we might have had if only the Founder had reached his full stature! I shall end up by pointing out how this deepens the significance of the Crucifixion. One feels for the first time what a tragic waste .... so much promise cut short." (pp 43-44).
      The healing of the Syrophoenician woman's daughter is actually recounted in Matthew's Gospel. Luke doesn't mention it.
      Pax et bonum
      William Greenhalgh

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    2. Oh William, I am not seeking to deny Jesus Christ’s humanity or divinity. I merely want to understand how he is human like us and we all grow and develop. And if the account of the SyroPhoenician woman is in Matthew, (I didn’t check!) that bears out my point that there is movement from ‘only the lost sheep of the house of Israel’ towards someone outside it.

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  11. Gosh, there's so much is this discussion - what is a person - that we may end up going in all sorts of directions; Thomist, post-Thomist, evolutionary, psychoanalytical, Biblical, eschatological...

    We can assume other cultures and religions feel equally strongly about the topic, too!

    Perhaps that most meaningful spiritual question we can ask is: who am I? We see Christ asking this too, growing - becoming if you like - in his knowledge and answers and realization of this too. I would say: growing to a horizon that was beyond his complete understanding.

    In the early twentieth century, a footnote in the ground breaking Anglican tome, Lux Mundi, created almost more controversy than the entire book. It was a comment where Charles Gore suggested that, because he was fully human, Jesus did not possess perfect knowledge of reality, of the universe. That takes us to acknowledging that Jesus did not possess complete knowledge of himself and his mission, his movement, as well. He was always "on the move", even in resurrected form, telling Mary "noli me tangere" - don't touch me, don't cling to me, I'm on my way to the Father.

    Perhaps he was frightened of her touch, too, warm and earthy-loving, that it would cause him to turn back from his onward journey.

    One of the most frightening aspects of the internet, of AI, for me, is that it conditions us *not to wait*. We want instant, perfect knowledge, and it feigns to supply that. It gives us the illusion that perfect knowledge is attainable now. Which of the temptations of Jesus does this fit? Because that's what it sounds like.

    We know this temptation without AI. Sub the Bible for a chatbot - the Bible knows everything - or a PhD., or this or that "true Christianity", or a very dark time in my life when I was desperate for answers and got into some demented places in my mind involving New Age disillusions of perfect knowing and manipulation of health...

    This desperate search for truth as certainty. It is interesting to note that anxiety can be defined as basically a defence against uncertainty. We live in an age of unprecedented anxiety and the age of AI. The two are intimately connected, surely.

    Let us embrace slow processes of becoming! The starling making a nest in my rafters. The plodding pace of the Lectionary before us. But on some matters, let us not wait! For justice. For an end to war. For gay Christians to stop being assigned to cattle class in the Church.

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  12. Dear William,

    Here is AI's view on colonization and indigenous peoples:

    "Historically and contemporarily, colonization has overwhelmingly harmed indigenous peoples worldwide. While some argue that colonizers introduced modern infrastructure, medicine, and global trade, these developments were primarily designed to extract resources and enforce assimilation. For most indigenous populations, colonization caused catastrophic population collapse, land dispossession, and cultural erasure."

    Actually, this is AI scouring out someone else's view - Helena Moewaka Barnes and Tim McCreanor in this case.

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    1. Mark, colonisation began in New Zealand long before European settlement. The first instance would have been sometime in the 13th century when one iwi supplanted another from its land and treated the previous holders of the land in the accustomed manner: killing (with mana-enhancing cannibalism), enslavement and absorption. A relatively low population (with a low life expectancy, about 30-35 for most who survived infancy) and relatively large amount of land were the main checks on the warfare, which got out of hand in the 1820s once the Musket Wars kicked off. So it is certainly possible to have colonisation without any material or technological improvements in a people's way of life. The Maori tribes were basically in cultural stasis for over 500 years, from their first arrival in the 13th century until 1769. Very little had changed. This is not dissimilar to the American Indians for untold centuries in the American South West, until their encounter with the Spanish, in the vast lands that were formerly northern New Spain (California, Arizona, Texas etc). Tribes (or nations, as they term themselves) ranged over vast terrains, and by far the fiercest of these were the Comanche, who established dominance after they acquired horses and then guns from the Spanish. In short, warfare and dominance is the natural state of mankind, including those who don't live in permanent houses or possess wheels, metal working and literacy. So I am not really convinced by political advocacy masquerading as history. For a recent example of this shocking dishonesty, look up "Kamloops Indian Residential Schools mass graves". and the hysteria this journalistic hosx unleashed.
      Pax et bonum
      William Greenhalgh

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  13. Hmmm yes Mark, people using AI without possessing the necessary internal filter that understands you are being fed generic answered gleaned from other sources as opposed to seeing AI itself as the source is troublesome.

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  14. A go at a definition - a person. A being created by the word (logos/God) and then given life by the word (Rhema), a self that relates to and is influenced by other selves and creation through body, soul and spirit.

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  15. William,

    Yes of course indigenous societies were marked by competition for resources and power, violence, and, at times, warfare. They didn't have the technological means, however, to achieve such large-scale, systemic subjugation, population loss, theft of land, loss of resources, and assimilation of the other and loss of cultural vitality as we see European colonizers doing, not just in one country, but again and again throughout the world. The contemporary impact of such colonization can be seen, of course, in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand today by looking at one one metric of well being, say, suicide rates among Māori (horrifically, scandalously higher than Pākeha).

    Nor should we project our own theories and politics on the past too rapidly. There is so much we don't know, though Māori, for example, have impressive oral records, however much these have been subject of suppression and loss through colonialism, or subsequent ridicule by historians and Christians.

    When I was on the vestry at St Luke's Anglican Church I made the case that oral histories suggest, quite strongly, that the church was built upon or beside a prominent urupa/burial ground, and that we needed to take this seriously and wrestle with the fact. This was ridiculed by the church wardens who cited articles from colonial newspapers to show that the land was bare. Somehow, a colonial newspaper trumped sophisticated oral history because it was "objective" (!!?). This is tragically ironic for Christians given our foundational scriptures began as oral history.

    The Valley where I live, Ōhinetahi, is illustrative. It was originally settled by Waitaha and subsequently by Kati Mamoe then Kai Tahu. The original "settlement" was brutal - with prominent sites named where important chiefs were killed, or, in one case, heads from a previous tribe were placed in baskets as a warning. There's no sugar coating this. Nor, I've found, do local Māori try to conceal these facts. One local kaumatua told me that "hell has walked through your valley".However, after the initial violent contact, ongoing peace and unity was largely achieved through inter marriage and agreement. And, rather impressively, even until the early 19th century, local tohunga would pray over specific parts of the valley and harbour here to settle it from its history of bloodshed.

    Oral histories also show Māori in this area possessing sophisticated knowledge of stars, hills, streams, flora and fauna, as well as subtle energies within the land and body that could be cultivated for healing purposes. Some of these oral histories, which are rare but do survive, show a wisdom equivalent to that of Solomon.

    Then came European "settlement", "land purchases", and diseases. Soon there were no indigenous people left in this Valley, all the land had been "bought" (under the most dubious of deals), and local Māori, the ones who survived European disease, were given a few diminishing acres here and there in the harbour.

    Now of course, this whole Valley and harbour is parcelled up into property that Europeans almost exclusively own, including my property which was a bare field and now has trees and a house on it. It is my home, where I bring up my children, but the past history makes me feel ambivalent and unsettled too. What is my responsibility now, given this?

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  16. Moya, nobody denies that Jesus grew and developed in his humanity. The point was rather, did he grow as we do, from sin and error by repentance, or by an ever growing apprehension of the ttuth by the Holy Spirit - from perfection to perfection? Orthodoxy gives the second answer, liberalism the first. I have long suspected that the Anglican bishop in hell satirised by Lewis in The Great DIvorce was Ernest Barnes of Birmingham, himself a great mathematician (what is it about mathematicians and their struggles with orthodoxy? - ignosce mihi, Petre!) who inveighed against orthodox Chistology in the 1940s. Barnes had his Anglican episcopal epigones, notably the scholarly John Robinson, then the ludicrous Jack Spong of Newark in the 1990s, then Richard Holloway of Edinburgh. (Not forgetting another mathematician, Lloyd Geering of Dunedin.)
    Jesus' statement about being "sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel' is in fact found in the passage about the Syrophoenician woman. Bishop Richard Holloway opined that this incident showed Jesus being "corrected" from his Jewish nationalism to a larger vision. Well, we know where Holloway ended up - "from the river to the See" - and on the same side of the river as the lost soul Geering. I am simply asking you to look at the trajectory of unbelief which lies at the heart of liberalism. (A second question I have is, why does western Anglicanism tolerate all these heretics and unbelievers in its leadership? Is it really so sceptical and uncertain about its professed beliefs?)
    Pax et bonum
    William Greenhalgh

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  17. Mark, Maoridom will not advance until it renounces tribalism - the 'iwi' - as the core of a person's identity.. All peoples of the worls once defined thrmselves by their tribal identity. This made sense in hunter-gatherer societies and in early agriculture but it has no real place in urban existence. The earliest efforts, AFAIK, in undoing tribalism were by Cleisthenes of Athens in the sixth century BC. Progress in the rest of Europe was very slow but we got there eventually. For myself, I like it that I have some Scottish ancestry and a clan with its own tartan. But I have no idea who the chief of the clan is and take no orders from him or her. It is romantic fun, not aserious way of living today. Maybe it's different in rural Sicily or Kosovo.
    Perpetuating tribalism in the 21st century simply means putting money and power in the hands of a few elite families who will use it to advance their own. It is a surefire recipe for political and financial corruption and the undoing of the execrable Te Patii Maori is a predictable outcome. Tribalism is an obstacle to progress, whither in Sicily or New Zealand.
    Pax et bonum
    William Greenhalgh

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  18. I actually took Jesus’ sending out the disciples in Matthew 10 as my starting point, William. They weren’t to go to Gentiles or Samaritans but to Israel alone.
    That’s what led me to wonder about development…
    You are blessed to be able to be so clear and definite about the faith.
    Not everyone is! Maybe that’s our fault but life has a way of muddling things for people. There is mystery in faith as well as life.

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    1. Moya, it's a a blessing anyonr can have who accepts that the apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit as Jesus promised they would (John 14) and recorded faithfully his words and deeds and thd meaning thereof. But like all, blessings, it doesn't come without cost. One of the costs is being indifferent to modern disbelief or incclination to believe that Jesus is really as good as the Incarnation implies.
      Pax et bonum
      William Greenhalgh

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  19. Gosh, William, you've just suggested that Māori need to give up being Māori and assimilate in order to "make progress", "advance" - this is deeply racist ideology from another century, frankly. I think I'm over talking ethnic relations with you. You seem rigidly intent on opposing anything that is precious, chosen, and authentic to Māori without making any genuine attempt to understand it on their terms. TBH I think I respond because I feel embarrassed that local or overseas readers may see these comments going unchallenged on a Christian discussion forum, but that's my perennial rescuing tendencies back again - it's Peter's blog, his responsibility. I will end here urging Peter to be more crisp in how he may moderate racist commentary in the future. Bye.

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  20. And I do wonder if being Catholic is a form of ‘iwi’ with maybe a similar downside? Jesus calls us into his way of being that includes all who do the will of God.

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  21. William / Mark

    Moderation on this site always veers towards freedom of speech including freedom to proffer opinions at odds with majority and/or local sentiment etc.

    However, William, Mark has a point: you are saying things about Maori which are unfair and unkind. So, from now, I will take a much closer look at what you say about Maori. If I am unwilling to publish your whole comment because of one part, then it will be deleted, and I don't have time to keep publishing comment to you about deleted comments and certainly don't have time to redact your comments before publishing them.

    This is a warning. Take care.
    Peter.

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  22. Hey everybody! EVERLEE is FREE. Praise be.
    Newsletter in my Inbox today from David Farrier:
    https://www.webworm.co/everleeisfree/

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  23. Farewell then, Mark. I have appreciated our frank exchange of views, even if I have sometimes felt you have not understood what I was saying and have believed you were somettimes illogical or unjustified in your own beliefs. I confess I don't always understand myself what "racism' means, perhaps because I chiefly understand race as a biological category relating to immutable natural physical characteristics inherent in different groups of people. In that sense I have, all my life, repudiated racism as wrong, ignorant and hateful. The difficulty for me - and everyone else, I think - is the slippery and illegitimate use of 'race' to denote cultural characteristics which belong to particular ethnicities. This ambiguity is the source of most of our problems. Biology is what we are by birth and DNA and that will never change. Culture is by contrast always open to change. Culture denotes what we live and practise, what we consider worth passing on to the next generation, as well as the things we may struggle against. (Motorcycle gangs can be part of a "culture" as well as hakas and hangis.) Because these things overlap with racial and ethnic groups, there is much confusion in modern western discourse. The sharpest example of this is Islam, which has a very conflicted relationship with the native born peoples of Europe, the United States and, increasingly, Australia. Hostility to Islam as a cultural system is often denounced as "racism", which strikes critics of Islam as illogical since there is nothing intrinsically biological about Islam. It is a culture, not an immutable genetic fact like skin colour or physical build.
    I have never suggested that "Maori need to give up being Maori" any more than I havd suggested Scotsmen should give up being Scottish. Quite the reverse. I love the mosaic of cultures that make up the human race and hugely appreciate the variety of languages, dress, food, folklore, legends and arts that we find across cultures. I do not think they are all equal (French cuisine, German music, British and Irish literature, Italian painting, Greek philosophy, Japanese martial arts, and American creativity and technology are the best in their respective fields). But I very much believe Maori should preserve their language and their traditional arts (songs, dancing, arts) as a valuable and distinctivel patrimony.
    My objection is to locking people into tribal structures beased on elite families. Scots men and women have largely outgrown clanishness (no doubt it is still there in the Outer Hebrides) and I wouldn't expect a Csmpbell today to hate a Macdonald for things thav happened in 1692 - even if too many Scots today are still Anglophobic. Tribes don't rule the way Scots think today but they are no less Scots for that. Why not Maori as well?
    My real grief is that across nearly every social indicator - births out of wedlock, school achievement, employment, income, prison population, troubled youth, health outcomes - Maori are trailing white and Chinese New Zealanders. Why have these problems proved so intractable? I may be wrong, but to my mind the problem is basically spiritual: the collapse of Christian practice and church affiliation amongst most Maori in the past 50 or so years. In this the Maori people are not unique. The permissive society and the withering of vital religious practice have been devastating for working class people across the western world, undermining stable family life and the social betterment it promotes.How do you think illiterate Irish immigrants eventually became wealthy Americans? Through marriage, the Church, and education. If that link breaks, the hope of progress also collapses.
    Thanks for the conversation Mark; I hope you will use the word "racism" with more circumspection and accuracy in future.
    Atque in perpetuum, frater, ave et vale.
    William Greenhalgh

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