I have been following the situations in Gaza (and the West Bank) and in Ukraine pretty closely, and have tried to keep awareness of the much less reported perturbations in Sudan. There is much commentary on the two wars at the forefront of Western media headlines and I acknowledge that one more comment (or set of comments) here won't make any difference to the appalling situations fellow human beings face hour by hour and day by day, not knowing whether they will be alive or dead at the end of any given day.
My reflections in recent weeks have been focused on the power of evil in these situations. For instance, there is the evil of deceit in respect of claims that "this territory is ours because of ...[history]", the deceit not only being that such claims involves controversion of historical facts, but also that such a claim entails justification for war, for killing people, for maiming people, for displacing people, for destroying homes, for taking away livelihoods, for starving people ... there is a long list of the evil of deceit justifying the evil of destruction. Evil multiplies evil.
There is also the evil of leadership viewing human life as expendable. Hamas could surrender, its leadership safe in safe havens outside of Gaza could stop using this war to gain some kind of moral and public relations advantage over Israel. Israel could have a different approach to democracy which would give extreme parties less leverage in government, a leverage which views human life in Gaza and the West Bank as expendable. Russia seems intentionally careless with the lives of its soldiers - each of whom is a human being, not an expendable unit of military prowess - in favour of what, by any count of Russia's great land mass, is a tiny gain to national esteem as a great nation. One could go on.
A further evil of deceit emerges with each attempt at either a ceasefire or an actual peace between foes. No side seems serious about ending the evil multiplying evil. Meetings are held, things are said, proposals are proposed. Shooting and bombing continues.
For Christians, tempted to despair, this is a call to prayer ... Your kingdom come ... Deliver us from evil ... For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against, rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
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I was doing housework and thinking about your post, Peter, and a thought sent me diving for my laptop. I frequently think about the problem of evil - although more in terms of its presence in religious settings. But here's the thing...
I think Leonard Cohen was really on to something when he sang how everyone to love must come, but "like a refugee" ("Anthem").
You've said before on ADU Peter, probably many times!, about the need for humility in the church. And I agree on the need for prayer, I agree on the need for humility. How would our churches be transformed if we came to Love, or repented and returned to Love, (capital "L") like a refugee - as a STARTING POINT. And then prayer, and then.. what might happen from there? Not despair! but I'm certain something different, far more Jesus-shaped, would emerge!
Actual lyrics:
Every heart, every heart to love will come
But like a refugee.
We often think of evil as very dark and horrifying, but of course it is also glamorous and, in some sense, attractive.
One of my first experiences of (Quaker) Meeting for Worship was a vision of everyone having pieces of "the Light" inside them, and then some shining, mysterious power that wanted to horde all the lights for itself.
Those who suffer from mental illness often speak of it as a "dark force" having its own trajectory and even personality at times.
On RNZ this morning, a young man with OCD, with a fear of harming others, says:
"I was constantly afraid that I was making things unclean or infected or contagious, which spiralled into I'm some kind of ... not like a force for evil, but some of contaminant that's hurting others around me."
Donald Kalsched (Trauma and the Soul), a depth psychologist with theological training, speaks of psychopathology as early coping forces against soul injury that have become rigid and and sometimes cruel internal self- parts. He calls these aspects of self, "protectors".
I do not think the "protectors" inside us are the source of evil per se, but I am intrigued at the origins of evil "in the heavens", of the myth of Lucifer as originally a "bearer of light".
What happens when our primitive defences against injury - the "protectors" within - become allied with other parts of self, our hunger for power and self preservation gone mad, the dark force within us and all around that wants to 'horde all the lights for itself'?
Is the result of this unholy alliance what is called "the dark triad"? ....i.e. Paulhus and Williams' personality theory of malevolence being made up of narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism.
C/f. The dark triad in current world autocrats: Putin (psychopathy), Trump (narcissism), and Xi Jumping (Machiavellianism).
* Jinping! (Autocorrect!!)
Mark, I have an essay about the meaning of "deliver us from evil" in the Lords Prayer - very long and covers a lot of ground. One bit describes how good people can feel bad about themselves, e.g. a good teacher may sometimes feel like a bad teacher, or a good parent may often feel like they're a terrible parent.
Then... "Continuing along these lines, for a country to be truly “great,” then, that country would encourage its citizens not to suppress but rather to reckon with collective guilt, or at the very least collective responsibility for past wrongs, for instance the legacy of slavery in the case of the USA."
Does this relate to some of what you're discussing above? - trying to get my head around it :) It seems similar to me re the fear of harming others, and how that fear has the potential to get out-of-hand and perhaps trigger an extreme form of self-protection.
The essay is by Treena Balds and Timothy Morton.
I can't quite get my head around it, Liz. It sounds different but interesting nonetheless.
That is surely a comment to wrap ones brain around and back again Mark!! The common thread I see between comments starting with your use of the word deceit or decieved +Peter is the recognition that evil often is a masquerade of sorts. Appearing as you mention Mark as light.Many people commit evil acts as they have been persuaded they are actually good, the right thing to do. In line with this it also seems to be aided with things being hidden or secrets, I think perhaps linking with comments re the Masonic lodge. I am also not sure any of us are immune, it’s the same old story, eat this and surely you will not die? Check out porn on the internet a little look has never done any harm. We don’t want war, the Ukrainian’s are Nazi’s, and we are just protecting our own.
In an attempt to correlate with the internal world of psychopathy; the enemy of our souls is just that and I can relate to the example you give initially mark re a wounded soul taking on board ways of thinking that can rob them of their light 💡… Nor would it be without reason to think satan would exploit the situation as he doesn’t have scruples when it comes to kicking a person when they are down or manipulation.
Notwithstanding it is beyond me whether the leaders you mention Mark have a combination of damaged psyche and dark forces or they have just chosen the dark side, one never knows!
A quote which I think someone might have mentioned before but appropriate given his Russian heritage and time in the Gulag:
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Forgot to say, yes +Peter we need to pray and then have more prayer and more prayer…
Xi "Jumping" was a hoot, Mark! Thanks for responding to my Q. I'll put it aside in the 'pondering' file :)
Great quote!
"No side seems serious about ending the evil multiplying evil."
This could equally be said of the leadership of certain powerful church institutions (e.g. CofE and SBC) where secrecy and deceit flourish in an environment that's all too often hospitable to these evils. Abuse covered up; truth finally emerging after decades.. those institutions have now lost moral authority. Who wants to listen to *them*.
While loudly and performatively battling over issues like women's ordination and sexuality, abuse got brushed under the carpet and victims/survivors became the enemy.
This final line I've copied from a political commentator but it's how I feel about the issues I've raised here:
I’m angry. Really angry.. Are you?
P.S. I do fervently believe in prayer but it should lead to action in upholding the downtrodden and marginalized, and holding power and privilege to account. Jesus himself confronted and condemned religious hypocrisy.
I think you're much more sensitized to this issue than me, Liz. Maybe like climate change I get angry once in a while, mainly when I work with a survivor or hear about a wretched case in the media, then life comes along, the kids need to get to their podiatry appt, and I put it in a bubble inside or outside me where I feel both deeply cynical about how so-called orthodox Christianity exercises power and authority - these days the idea of a separate ordained priesthood feels foreign to Christianity, for me - mixed with a warm respect and admiration for many ordained clergy who care deeply about these issues and feel equally let down.
'Let down' isn't the right language - horrified, appalled, disturbed to the core...
Thanks heaps Mark, probably just that I'm free to read more of the cases and machinations in the CofE, and frankly I'm horrified. Where you said about "a separate ordained priesthood" feeling foreign to Christianity, well, actually, I confess I was wrestling with *exactly* that before getting up this morning. If we're all partakers in the divine nature [2 Peter ch1] then...? I suspect the core issue though, is entanglement with systems of class and power - Establishment re CofE in UK, and RW-politics re SBC in USA. That deep entanglement with political power is fatal to a flourishing spiritual life in the church (I think).
Perhaps I may share a link here re the inter-denominational religious support and solidarity around Kilmar Abrego GarcÃa in the US.
Quote: "Behind him on the steps, faith leaders led the crowd in singing hymns. Among them was “This Little Light of Mine,” but attendees added a new verse: “Kilmar is our neighbor, you can’t have him Trump. Leave him be, leave him be, leave him be.”"
https://religionnews.com/2025/08/25/once-against-detained-by-ice-clergy-rally-to-defend-kilmar-abrego-garcia/
As a couple of ADU friends already know, recently I wrote a Substack post that references that same song - it has quite a history in the US as a hymn sung at Civil Rights demonstrations in the late 50s, early 60s.
https://erstwhileangel.substack.com/p/this-little-light-of-mine
My hope soars when I see religious leaders and the people coming together and showing up together - this is where it's at - this is what matters. A witness that can make a real difference.
The New Covenant as per Jeremiah 31:31-34, Jesus's dialogue with the woman at the well (esp John 3:19-24), and 'the veil of the temple being torn in two' (Matthew 27: 51) have also been read as the end of a formal, separated priesthood - special religious professionals who act as intermediaries between God and humankind - or the advent of 'the priesthood of all believers', God directly available and present here and now to/within the heart of every person.
I'm woefully ignorant about ordination, and about celebrating the Eucharist. My impression: Catholics - only a Catholic priest can officiate and only Catholics may partake; if you 're not Catholic then you're not even a Christian - is that right? Anglicans: only an Anglican (or other 'approved') priest may officiate. All Christians may partake therefore non-Anglican Christians are welcome too.
I know this is really basic but I really want to know, am I in error on any of these basic impressions - or have I got it about right?
That's about it! Almost all Catholics would see other Christians as Christians and indeed recognize the sacrament of baptism if water is used and the Trinity is evoked, but other forms of Christian communion are not recognized.
The common factor is you have to be ordained to celebrate communion. I really have no idea why a sincere, suitable lay person is unable to do so. Maybe Peter can tell us. Because obviously there have been some/many quite corrupt priests who have celebrated communion, and the Catholic understanding at least is the communion is still valid, that the validity of communion and the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine is not dependent on the human element. So I'm not sure why the human element needs to necessarily be ordained.
These days, I do see it as a way of exercising illegitimate power and control over laypeople, especially when coupled with a trad Catholic theology that says you need this for salvation but only we have a monopoly on it. That doesn't look like the carpenter's son at all to me. Many millions of people who have walked away from these sort of churches and theological arrangements perhaps agree.
'For Christians, tempted to despair, this is a call to prayer ... Your kingdom come ... '
So agree +Peter that prayer is the appropriate response, especially the prayers you mention. I am always aware of the very partial and biased information we receive about what is happening there (inevitable about everywhere we are not currently present, and even true in our present time and space often enough).
A friend told me, way back in 2014 that he was praying for Russia to be pushed out of the Crimea. God responded to him, 'You don't know what I am doing there.' 'Your will be done.'
We hurt so much for people. When I think about the reality of eternal life then it is people's eternal well-being I most care about, and want to pray for. A peaceful life now with an eternity in hell is no blessing, but pain, misery and injustice now are vile too. How can we know how best to pray? Our most powerful response is prayer and these prayers in particular. Activism might at best engage governments. Prayer certainly engages God (not that we can't have both).
The notion of people spending an eternity in hell is the most evil belief imaginable.
The idea that God would allow/underwrite a violent, imperial invasion (i.e. in Crimea) to save a few more souls from God torturing them for an eternity in hell is such an appalling misuse of Christian theology, so ch a statement of evil, one doesn't know where to begin.
Yes I agree with you, Mark. And Chris's comment, "A peaceful life now with an eternity in hell is no blessing..." is a monstrous statement whatever you tag on the end of it. It's a permission structure for terrible evil.
Something extra, this deep dive on Gratitude from Ukraine. Wow! I recommend taking a little bit of quiet time to read this.
The Greatest Gift Is Waking Up Alive
https://viktorkravchuk.substack.com/p/the-greatest-gift-is-waking-up-alive
It seems to me through what happened to Jesus, who represented the Father, that God allows people to do whatever they choose to do that is downright evil and will still go on loving and forgiving, even those who are the abusers.
Jesus said, ‘My Father is working and I am working,’ and I take that to mean that God is actively present in every disastrous and evil situation that people devise, on their own account, bringing about the good of grace and mercy.
That’s how I understand the comment, ‘You don’t know what I am doing there!’
Jesus said why he asked his Father to forgive his abusers at the Cross. It was because "they know not what they do". Ditto Stephen when he was stoned. The people most responsible thought they were doing what God wanted them to do. The current oppressive/autocratic world leaders *do* know what they're doing. They are cynically and knowingly oppressing innocents while also co-opting and manipulating professed Christians into their evil plans. Jesus *worked* and prayed. He didn't just pray. Christians are told to watch and pray, to love God and to love our neighbour. If loving God and neighbour means conflict with religious/political authorities then clearly we take a stand against evil - which is why Jesus, Stephen and countless other martyrs have lost their lives.
That's a really interesting reflection on awareness and ignorance, Liz. Yes, with Putin one feels he absolutely knows what he's doing. And yet I'm sure he is vastly ignorant as well - of the other, of whatever it is inside and outside him that remains frozen in order for him to act as he does.
Our Buddhist and Indian brothers and sisters would strongly resonate with the view that evil and suffering are based on a very deep sense of ignorance or delusion. Salvation or enlightenment as liberation from ignorance and delusion. Christians might think of that as the deep delusion that we are separate from God.
And appreciated your points regarding Jesus. Yes, prophets aren't quiet, tidy people!
I did think that the Sanhedrin, Pilate and the soldiers knew perfectly well that they were crucifying an innocent man. Even the thief beside him bore witness to that.
But like a stone thrown into a pond, none of us is aware of the eventual outcomes of our actions, small or big. So in that sense, Jesus’ comment applies to all of us. Someone has said, ‘To understand all is to forgive all!’
So I can appreciate the Buddhist stance you mentioned, Mark.
However, Jesus’ cleansing of the temple is also an action that all of us need to take note of in responding to evil, which you may think there is not enough of, Liz!
Look around you. How did the CofE get into the deep mess it's in? How did the Religious Right/Christian Nationalists get where they are today in America? When other Christians refuse to critique their own; refuse to call them out for choosing pursuit of power over self-denial/love of neighbour; refuse to take up the cause of the abused/oppressed -- and instead avert their eyes like it's none of their business -- it's the story of the Priest and the Levite passing by, and avoiding the victim, all over again. The lack of (or weak) response from Christians provided every opportunity for religious extremists to push their agenda -- and it's gone far beyond that now -- democracy itself is being bulldozed. Right now, one of the most Hated Phrases around is "thoughts and prayers". Think about that.
Did they know he was innocent? Was Jesus innocent?
...healing and feasting on the Sabbath, forgiving sins, implying or actually declaring he was one with God, and the act that Geza Vermas argues led to his execution - the 'cleansing of the temple'. Jesus was a rebel, a direct threat to the religious system and to the "peaceful" settlement that Jewish leaders had delivered and protected.
Could the Jewish leaders and Roman authorities have acted in the way they did believing they were 'in the right', both in terms of the wider interests of the Jewish people and the peace of the Empire, as well as what was right in terms of the God of Israel?
Might Putin and Trump not think in this way too? (Evil as ignorance and delusion).
Hi Mark, prior to my recent comments, I had thought about whether the religious authorities of Jesus time had any idea he really was their Messiah and I don't believe they were *even close* to any understanding of that. (I assume Nicodemus was an exception rather than the norm, and Jesus responded to him by explaining a full gospel message most beautifully). So what you've outlined above would describe my view; Jesus was a threat to their security. Saul was zealous in persecuting Christians, thinking he was doing the right thing. The disciples themselves didn't really understand until after Jesus resurrection.
Trump knows the gospel (he has carefully studied Billy Graham and other preachers - presumably so he can copy their style and deliver a powerful message). But he would've also heard the real gospel message while doing this. He knows better - but chooses to manipulate and dominate white evangelicals to his personal advantage. From that, you can draw your own conclusions about how I'd answer your Q!
Putin I know little about, but got an excellent search result just now where an Australian "reverend" (I think I recognise his name) discusses this very thing in a Guardian article and it's really fascinating - I hope you'll take a look (link below).
Thanks for all who've joined in this discussion BTW, I learn a lot from these exchanges, and find things (like the Guardian article) that I might not have come across otherwise. So thank you.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/06/vladimir-putin-a-miracle-defender-of-christianity-or-the-most-evil-man
I think Liz, and I am open to correction, you are in a large part thinking about people - including Putin and Trump who have been educated in the christian faith and also personally say they have one and yet from many people’s perspectives their actions do not reflect the faith. Albeit the plural ‘we’ will not be the ones to judge who falls into this category, the Bible certainly doesn’t mince words about people who are like this and even shows ways one can tell:
Matthew 7:15-20
New King James Version
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Are we still to pray for those we personally consider ‘enemies’ - I believe so, and to go even further albeit I cannot say how people draw strength enough in their faith to do so, for surely it must be the hardest thing to do. I remember reading the book Tortured for Christ and a bit where a man who had been tortured to the point of death by a certain guard prayed for that guard when he too was thrown into prison, the man died shortly afterwards. Now that is definitely on love that can come from God.
Romans 12:19-21
Amplified Bible
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave the way open for God’s wrath [and His judicial righteousness]; for it is written [in Scripture], “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 But if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for by doing this you will heap [a]burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome and conquered by evil, but overcome evil with good.
And I will add a caveat like Moya, none of this discounts activism or speaking up for justice or against injustice which is also very scriptural.
That's a great article on Putin as a defender of orthodox Christianity, Liz. Acting very much out of what some have called "warrior consciousness", the "warrior church", and in this with clear links to Trump and Netanyahu.
There's a lot in the Bible to justify this, just not a lot in the Gospels. We can hear Paul struggling (above, in Jean's quote) with "warrior consciousness" versus the shift in consciousness to love, grace, equality, and universal salvation that Jesus announces and embodies - and gets killed for. It's such a major shift that Gospel writers struggle with this too, TBH. Peter draws his sword and cuts off ears as his first instinctual *spiritual* response - as do many of us.
Is God a jealous, vengeful being who takes sides (Israel, White Christian Europe, Holy Mother Russia, "Jesus", the "elect"), bifurcating the world into us and them, the chosen ones and their enemies? Or....
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