Monday, October 3, 2016

From Another Land Down Under

I think we can all southern Africa "Down Under" ... and from there we learn that, far from progressive agendas always progressing when in Anglican hands, synods can say "No!"

Though here's the rub ... "No" seems to mean "It will be on the agenda another time."

And, that, dear readers, is precisely what would happen were ACANZP to say a similar "No."

24 comments:

Father Ron said...

'Though here's the rub ... "No" seems to mean "It will be on the agenda another time." And, that, dear readers, is precisely what would happen were ACANZP to say a similar "No." '

Dear Peter, if you read articles around this decision by the South African Church, you will find that it was mainly the bishops who were in opposition to what had been brpught forward as a 'Way Forward' for S.A. on the Blessing of Same-Sex Unions - in accordance with a desire to provide a reasoned and cogent Christian pastoral response to Civil Legislation already allowing for Same-Sex Marriage.

Even Archbishop Thabo Makgoba has expressed his regret that this should have been the outcome - of a considered process unique among other African Provinces - especially those of the GAFCON - that still criminalise homosexuality. One wonders what sort of pressure came from the GAFCON Primates to bear on this outcome?

I note, Peter, your own hint of regret that in ACANZP we are still hoping to find our own 'Way Forward' in 2018. You are thus, seemingly, aligning yourself quite clearly with those who protest against any change - despite your own proposal to help the process. I find that disturbingly ambiguous.

Peter Carrell said...

Dear Ron
Your comment (allied with one or two others you have made on this site) prompts this question:

Are Synod decisions only welcome when they agree with what you think should be the outcome or are they always welcome because they are Synodical rather than individual decisions?

As for my own role. Perhaps I have not been clear enough:

(1) I find no Scriptural, traditional or theological-rational authority to bless same sex relationships since the weight of revelation is against understanding that God now authorises what was once forbidden. Thus if our church follows the Church of Southern Africa, I will not lose sleep.

(2) I recognise that I belong to a church of differing views from my own, and I respect many friends colleagues and seniors, including yourself, who hold such differing views. Thus I am willing to try to find a way through this difference in order to avoid division. My own submission accordingly to our Archbishops in our current process is modest re proposed change (almost none at all) and clear re avoidance of doctrinal change expressed in new formularies.

If that means I or my views or both are "disturbingly ambiguous" then that is fine by me because as best I know and understand it, ACANZP is disturbingly ambiguous!

Andrei said...

Pope Francis yesterday in Tbilisi in response to a woman's question about what is being taught in their schools after the Godless US annexation and installation of a puppet Government in the Christian land of Georgia (the so called Rose revolution)

“You mentioned a great enemy of marriage today: gender theory.

Today, there is a global war out to destroy marriage,” Francis said in Georgia. “Not with weapons but with ideas ... we have to defend ourselves from ideological colonization.”

Bryden Black said...

The Global Sexual Revolution: Destruction of Freedom in the Name of Freedom, by Gabriele Kuby, who was here in NZ recently on her way to Australia, would agree with Pope Francis regarding this "ideological colonization", Andrei. Her typically Germanic assembling of the evidence is impressive.

Shawn Herles said...

While the current US administration under Obama could certainly be described as Godless, the US as a whole is one of the only nations in the West with a large Christian population, and one of the only nations in the West with a strong and influential Christian resistance to Godless liberalism.

“You mentioned a great enemy of marriage today: gender theory.

Today, there is a global war out to destroy marriage,” Francis said in Georgia. “Not with weapons but with ideas ... we have to defend ourselves from ideological colonization.”

That quote from Pope Francis is exactly what I have been talking about recently on ADU, the ideological colonization of the Church by cultural Marxist ideas about gender and sexuality.

Father Ron said...

I, for one, have no intention of 'destroying marriage'. The only destruction lies within ther participants of the institution itself - those who choose to ignore their promise to faithfully observe its promises. That is what can destroy it.

I cannot see how the extension of marriage, to include other lawful and faithful partnerships can ever destroy marriages that are faithful and binding. What are they doing that can destroy them?

By the same token, there are those conservatives in the Church who think that the extension of the priesthood to include women 'destroys the priesthood'. Equally, I would say that this is a similar, gross, misunderstanding

Andrei said...

" the US as a whole is one of the only nations in the West with a large Christian population"

Indeed Shawn - the American people need to take their country back from the elites that have captured it and are leading it to perdition

This is the fight of our times

Shawn Herles said...

I agree completely Andrei, and hopefully on November 8 they will!

Shawn Herles said...

Speaking of taking countries back, GAFCON has begun a major church planting program in the UK.

http://gafcon.org/2016/09/amie-the-uk-mission-society-established-by-gafcon-begins-ambitious-church-planting-program/

Jean said...

Let's just pray the 8th Nov does not lead to the building of any wall between the US and their neighbours, of whom 98% are Christian. Such a result would hardly be advertising material for being all one in the body of Christ.

Of course, it may just be that identifying as Christian, can not always be equated with being a follower of Christ.

Father Ron said...

Sadly, for those of you here who are hoping for a Republican Government in the U.S. your greatest danger is the Evangelical 'Christian' Trumpet called Donald. If this really is your basis of hope for a 'Christian opposition' to the Democrats in North America, I don't think your hope is at all credible. His friends appear to be those Christian Leaders of the 'Prosperity Gospel' who appear to highly value his fiscal capability - not necessarily a qualification for Christian veracity.

I don't think that Christian disciple 'par excellence', whose Feastday is about to be celebrated on October 4, woud give him an endorsement.

Shawn Herles said...

Hi Jean,

I myself am very much in favour of the wall, as the virtually open border between Mexico and the US is a major national security problem. And Trump is not wrong about the large number of violent criminals that freely and regularly cross into the US. I don't believe that being one in the body of Christ means we dissolve national borders. Also, given the high number of US citizens who have been murdered by Mexicans who were in the US illegally, the building of the wall could reasonably be said to be a matter of social justice, or it would be if our current version of social justice were not so blatantly skewed to the political Left.

As to how Christian Mexican Catholics are, that is debatable. Mexican Catholicism at the lay level is heavily mixed with Mexican paganism and the worship of demonic pagan idols such as Santa Muerte. And despite being very anti-Christian and pro-abortion in it's policies, Mexican Catholics vote for the Democratic Party by a large majority. Given that fact, more of them will only hasten the de-Christianization of the US.

Contrary to what currently passes for social justice in the Church, I do not believe that nationalism and Christianity are incompatible.

Andrei said...

I wouldn't put my hope in Donald Trump if I were you Shawn - at best he is the lesser of two evils in this world of utter wickedness and depravity

Apparently a lot of fake "terrorist" videos were produced in Iraq by a British PR firm called Bell Pottinger paid for by the Pentagon - $500 million dollars worth

The USA bullies countries into having gay pride parades and teaching sexual ..... in their schools.

I sent Peter a documentary where a Moldovan politician described what happened to him when he opposed a gay pride in Chișinău - the US ambassador summoned him and gave him a major dressing down

This is not good :(



Shawn Herles said...

"I wouldn't put my hope in Donald Trump if I were you Shawn"

I see no reason not to. I don't buy the lesser of two evils argument. To me there is nothing evil about his policies. That said "hope" is too strong a word for what I think. Trump would be a major step in the right direction, but only a step. No single politician will overthrow globalism and modernity.

"The USA bullies countries into having gay pride parades and teaching sexual ..... in their schools."

So does the EU, and so do a large number of non-US ngo's. Modernity and Liberalism are the problem, not the US. And while he may personally not be a Christian social conservative, a Trump/Republican victory would put a stop that that sort of thing.

And given your concerns about the US vs Russia, Trump is the first candidate in a very long time who is sympathetic to Putin and Russian concerns. After all, if a Russian nationalist of the calibre of Aleksandr Dugin can endorse Trump, this is surely a good sign.

And God is on the move in the US.....

'Revival Fire Sparks New Wave of Awakenings in America'

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/watchman-on-the-wall/58584-revival-fire-sparks-new-wave-of-awakenings-in-america

Andrei said...

I should have said I would put all my hopes in Donald Trump - Shawn

He is saying the right things but bringing them to fruition is another matter entirely - his endeavours, should he be elected, will be sabotaged every step of the way - you should know this

But raising the American people out of the sewer is not on his agenda

It is all about "laying up treasure in this world where moth and rust corrupt..."

The key to a sane and civilized society is the family as its nuclear building block and that is why Satan and his servants have gone after it and one of their most successful weapons the idolatry of sexual gratification.

The war is underway, it is spiritual as well as conventional

It is being fought with words in the ACANZP and guns in Syria, etc

At stake the soul of humanity

We know who wins in the end though and that's a comfort

Father Ron said...

AND, from another Country - A message on Saint Francis Day October 4, 2016"

"In the parable of the banquet, Jesus tells us that all people are invited to the Kingdom of God. The mercy and love of God are not reserved for a few, and the invitation to serve the Kingdom of God is not forced on anyone. Jesus invites us; we need only answer “yes.” We share with Jesus the belief that all people are important to God, and we demonstrate this commitment through our service to others."

from the international Jesuit web-site

Father Ron said...

Saint. Francis of Assisi - Feastday. 04 October 2016 (Jesuit website)

"In the parable of the banquet, Jesus tells us that all people are invited to the Kingdom of God. The mercy and love of God are not reserved for a few, and the invitation to serve the Kingdom of God is not forced on anyone. Jesus invites us; we need only answer “yes.” We share with Jesus the belief that all people are important to God, and we demonstrate this commitment through our service to others."

Something to think about; when we discover the desire of Blessed Francis to offer the love of God to the least of God's little ones - even the lepers.

Andrei said...

" . After all, if a Russian nationalist of the calibre of Aleksandr Dugin can endorse Trump, this is surely a good sign."

We all value who we are if we haven't been taught to hate our heritage - Aleksandr Dugin values who he is but also who you are Shawn but not who Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama are, if you get my meaning

I think Anglicanism might be the finest expression of English Christianity but it has been subverted by the "Vicar of Dibley" version

Hopefully Peter and his fellow travellers can restore it and rejuvenate it to be a major voice in public discourse and gather their flocks but first this ISSUE must be put to bed for once and for all

Shawn Herles said...

Hi Andrei,

The "fake terrorist videos" was a good idea. As you know, al-Qaeda and ISIS produce promotional videos and other material, some for their own members and some to attract other Muslims to their cause. So the company in question was tasked with making some of these, but with the facility to track who was watching them, in the hopes of catching al-Qaeda people or possible recruits.

Anyway, I'm going to move on from this discussion as it has the potential to get way off track from the subject of the thread.

Glen Young said...


Hi Peter,

Am glad that you allow the political views to be expressed so openly and freely.It is both educational and edifying to read such intelligent and up to date input.Keep it going chaps,you are right out of my league. God would certainly want us to know and understand how the father of lies has corrupted and perverted the governance of His people.It is interesting to see how Satan manages to make his darkness appear as though it's light,his bad appear as though it's good and his LIES appear as though it's TRUTH.

Cheers,Glen

Shawn Herles said...

'Gay Marriage: Even Liberals Know It's Bad'

http://crossexamined.org/gay-marriage-even-liberals-know-its-bad/

Jean said...

Hi Shawn

It has taken me too long to reply to your comment above so you may have lost the gist of it anyway...

Your response is part of my point, while many Mexican's identify as Christian not all will be Christ followers. Similarly while many American's identify as Christian not all will be Christ followers.

Nationalism,must be judged on its own merits, as a policy or stance it can be enacted both positively and negatively - in all countries.

Obviously in the US illegal immigration and border controls are complex issues and always have been and will be more so for countries who have land boundaries.

However, to propose building a wall and having a possible President callling an ethnic group murderers and rapists justified by a 'well I must be telling the truth because I am the leader of a US political party' does not sit well with me as a sensible approach to illegal immigration; and actually fills me with incredulity.

From a christian perspective, 'do not bear false witness against your neighbours' and Proverbs 12:17 - "He who speaks truth tells what is right, But a false witness, deceit." For it is my belief the human condition of committing the sins of murder and rape are a part of all ethnicities, and using such speech promotes a sense of nationalism built upon false premises. It is a bit like putting someone else down so you can feel better about who you are.

I know you disagree Trumps personal character is not as important as his policies, however, the God of the bible chose his leaders based on their character. I think there is a good reason for this.

As an aside, I know this defers from the topic at hand... sorry Peter, and I am not an advocate for secular liberalism. I do think although secular liberalism may be the result of the decline of Christianity in the West, I wonder if it was actually the cause? It does not appear that the west needs any help in deposing christianity it seems to have acheived that all on its own.

All the best
Jean

P.S. Nabeel Qureshi the Christian apologist has two new books one on Jihad and the other called No God but One (looking at Islam and Christianity). Both worth a read for anyone interested in gaining a deeper understanding of topical issues.






Shawn Herles said...

Hi Jean,

"However, to propose building a wall and having a possible President callling an ethnic group murderers and rapists"

That is what the mainstream media reported him as saying, but it's not true. Here are his actual words:

"“When do we beat Mexico at the border? They’re laughing at us, at our stupidity. […] When Mexico sends its people they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you; they’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists, and some, I assume, are good people. But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting.”

Clearly, he is not saying an entire ethnic group are rapists and murderers, in fact his actual words come nowhere close to that. In this case it was the liberal MSM bearing false witness. And Hillary did refer to millions of Americans as deplorables, and regularly infers that anyone supporting Trump is a racist redneck.

"I know you disagree Trumps personal character is not as important as his policies, however, the God of the bible chose his leaders based on their character. I think there is a good reason for this."

True, but when the only serious choice is between Trump and Hillary, then on the character issue we have to decide, each for ourselves, which is the lesser of evils. For me that is Trump by a country mile.

Now if there was a Christian nationalist of great personal virtue running then I would be ecstatic, but that is not the case, so just as in NZ, I often find myself supporting or voting for people who are far from my ideal of good candidates and people with strong Christian virtue on the basis that the alternative candidate is even worse. That sadly is the nature of secular democracy in the modern world. And until Western people wake up and realize that democracy in it's current form is not working, and part of the problem, it's what we are stuck with.

Jean said...

Hmm yes I believe we can agree on that, there are times when good candidates are indeed lacking!!