Saturday, November 11, 2017

Red blooded Anglicans will want to comment on at least one of these items!

Prayer in parliament. Change is coming, may even have been prematurely determined by our new Speaker. What do you think?

Filioque clause: keep it or drop it? Would the latter change Anglicanism at its very Reformation foundations, asks Doug Chaplin? Does the former inhibit important ecumenical movement towards greater unity in Christ? (Incidentally, marvellous theological writing in the document Doug Chaplin refers to). Liturgy also picks up the recent Anglican-Oriental Orthodox dialogue and, in the process, reminds Kiwi Anglican readers of some important "eastern" characteristics to our liturgies. (Comments specific to Doug Chaplin's and Bosco Peters' respective posts should be made there; but here you might focus on my somewhat rudimentary question: keep it or drop it?)

Should a prospective bishop of a diocese in a province which is not officially aligned with GAFCON be forced to sign the Jerusalem Declaration in order to be considered as a bishop of that diocese?

24 comments:

Doug Chaplin said...

Thanks for the shout, Peter!

Father Ron Smith said...

Seems like the Diocese of Port Elizabeth is setting itself up for a FCANZ-type relationaship in the GAFCON-free Province of South African Anglicans. Will they become the ACNA of the S.A. Anglican Province?

Glen Young said...


Hi Peter,
Any Bishop of the ACANZP has already signed up to the theology of the Jerusalem Declaration. That Declaration is only a reinforcement of the Vows they undertook at their ordination. I have written evidence that some of our present Bishops want to change the the theology of the Church Fathers to that of the testimony of DOWN TRODDEN and the OUTCASTS. If they have their way, that is the declaration to which the ACANZP will be signing up to. I pose the question of whether the average Anglican has any idea of where, some ? Church leaders wish to take the ACANZP?
Forget about the whether the Holy Spirit flows from the Father alone, or the Father and the Son; ask these Bishops and Clergy, to tell you who they believe Jesus Christ to be. I say once again that the ACANZP;[as is much of Western Anglicanism], still is inflicted with the teaching of Arius; and thus a short step into Progressive Christianity.

Anonymous said...

Hi Peter; we plonked the filioque in without agreement. Clearly that was wrong. Although I think Rome is correct on the theology, I’d happily drop the clause for the sake of unity. You will find however that the Orthodox cannot even agree among themselves on the most trivial of minor issues that often relate to obstacles unknown to the bible like episcopal jurisdiction. It’s a hopeless business to engage with them. So, if we and you abandoned filioque, there would still be no unity.

Nick

Peter Carrell said...

Dear Ron
You cannot comment here in such a way that talks about people's future choices.
Accordingly I am redacting your recently submitted comment here:

"Glen, from your various contributions on this thread, it has become patenty obvious that, whatever happenes with Motion 29 at the General SDynod of ACVANZP, you have already chosen not to live wth any changes that recognise the justice movement of our Church towards the full inclusion of those whose sexual attraction does not comply with the minority conservative expectation of Sola Scriptura Christians.

I am confident that our Church is ready to move into the 21st century's scientific understanding of innate sexual identity - beyond the binary - that has, for too long dominated the theological spectrum.. [] I do pray for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to inform the hearts and minds of the General Synod - sincerely believing that God loves ALL sinners and is interested in justice for all people.

[]. You have to live with youir own conscience, as I have to live with mine - together with the majority of us in ACANZP. May God bless you, anyway.
"

Peter Carrell said...

Brilliantly clear, Nick, to the point and, well, a little pointed, but fair comment re Orthodox "intra" disagreements many of us in the Western tradition struggle to understand.

Peter Carrell said...

Dear Glen
I disagree. The Jerusalem Declaration is a most odd statement which is almost agreeable but needs a Cranmerian touch to improve its wording.

I realise some bishops from time to time write things which are questionable but I do not think the present HoB of our church is at all moving in the direction you suggest.

Anonymous said...

Hi Peter; the Orthodox could rightly question papal supremacy and the two infallible Marian dogmas. Even if Rome departed from these doctrines, I suggest that the Orthodox would still have enough problems at home to delay any talk of unity.

Nick

Peter Carrell said...

Hi Glen
I have been a "hard marker" of Ron's recent comments so I think I had better redact yours too. (Thank you for acknowledging that the JD is a warts and all statement!)

"Hi Peter,
The days of brilliant "word-smiths" has been hit for six. So we may have to accept the Jerusalem Declaration, warts and all.

Ron, [] try reading "My Genes Made Me Do It" by Dr. Neil Whitehead.
"

Father Ron Smith said...

Peter, for all the 'Red-Blooded Anglicans' on this thread, that you have encouraged to comment on present activities within our beloved Anglican Communion, may I offer the unifying thought of Jesus, Himself, being the vine, of which he calls us to be the branches, in this lovely reflection on the Loyola website today:

"Without the vine, the branches would wither and die. When we realize that Jesus offers us an abundant and full life, we don’t want to be separated from him. A life connected to Jesus means a life that loves more, forgives more, and gives more. Jesus is the life source that keeps us connected to him and to each other."

This really does imply that, to separate ourselves from one another, would be tantamount to intentionally separating ourselves from Jesus our Redeemer. Who, in their right minds, would want to be responsible for that?

Jesus said, "I, when I am lifted up, will draw all people to myself". My prayer at Mass this morning is that we keep our eyes upon Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith; not dwelling on the sin that is within us all.

Glen Young said...


Hi Peter,
I'm fine with your redaction: Perhaps I could have suggested that I get a little irate when confronted with questionable science, being presented as the premise upon which one's argument is based.
As both a Christian and a Horticulturalist of 55 years standing, I could not agree more with Ron's reminder of us being "branches of the vine";
but how did we become part of that wonderful "VINE". We became Grafted onto His VINE though the COSTLY GRACE and the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT.
Having made a living, by contract pruning many acres of vines; I am only too aware of how quickly we cut out any branches of the vine which were infected with disease that would affect the quality of the fruit.
Romantic as these reminders may be; if one wants to quote horticultural practice as the foundation of Spiritual Life; they need to remember how brutal our science is. As the son of a rose grower, thousands of Rose seedlings were grown and discarded to produce that one named cultivar worthy of being "grafted". Exactly the same with GRAPES.
So when wee have put on the Righteousness of Christ, we must allow the Divine Surgeon [C.S.Lewis] to prune out any traits which will effect the quality of the fruit.

Peter Carrell said...

Dear Glen and Ron
I want to compliment you on your most recent comments: that is the way to comment! Focused on issues, digging into the theology (and, in this case, science) of a matter. Avoiding direction towards the personal. Thank you!

Anonymous said...

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet-- or sweeter. The Jerusalem Declaration should be used, not as a quasi-credal confession, but as one model or draft for local articulations of traditions received by Anglicans. For salient example, it would be interesting to see a similar compilation from Anglicans of the blessed isles.

BW

Father Ron Smith said...

Thanks, Peter, for your latest comment at 3.37 pm.

And Glen, may I gently remind you of Who is the Vine-Dresser - not any part of the Vine, but only the Vine Dresser (God). None of us who is part of the Vine is given license to discharge either ourself or others from remaining;'in the Vine' (Jesus).
The rotten branches will fall away or be removed by the Vine-Dresser (God). The living branches, capable of bearng good fruit, and nourished by the life of the Vine, will remain. We must be content with God's pruning. That is not our task.

"I am the Vine; you are the branches; and my Father is the Vine-Dresser" - Jesus.

Blessings on us all as we struggle to follow the way of Christ's mercy and goodness.

Jean said...

Hi Peter

In regards to the 'F' word if the terming of the statement is theologically incorrect, the Holy Spirit being from the Father in the name of the Son, then sure why not fix it up.

In regards to our governments prayer. I like the translation into more colloquial English and and the primary content of the new prayer. As for removing the name of Jesus. Remove it on purpose and the prayer is no longer a Christian one, so the more honest approach would be to remove it completely. I acknowledge much of the country has 'gone secular' so it is not surprising, however, too quickly I think we are prepared to throw away the heritage that has informed our laws and governance since they were instated. It is a modern irony that kiwi society is valuing more the cultural heritage of ethnic groups (think the growing festival celebrations of Diwali that is the celebration of a Hindu goddess) while so easily and scornfully discarding its own.

As for the Queen well, give respect where respect is due. We are not yet a republic and until that time if it comes??

: ) Jean

Glen Young said...


Hi Peter,
Perhaps, Ron mistook the meaning the last paragraph of my post at 1.21 P.M. :"So when we have put on the righteousness of Christ, we must allow the Divine Surgeon [C.S. Lewis] to prune out any traits which will effect the quality of the fruit".
[C.S Lewis] was inserted, simply to give him credit for the expression which he authored. C.S. would have been embarrassed, to be considered the Divine Surgeon. As for me, I am still fully occupied pruning in the horticultural field and are more than happy to let God prune His VINE.

Anonymous said...

"As for me, I am still fully occupied pruning in the horticultural field..."

What, Glen, do you prune?

BW

Glen Young said...


Hi Bowman,
May I start to answer your question,[with Peter's indulgence]; a story from my childhood. My Grandfather, a terrific old highlander, was granted title to a good sized block of coastal land, by the Maori owners;due to his wife's family goodwill with them. Sadly, Grandma died early and I never knew her. The farm became our family home where I grew up. My cousin went down to the city to help our Uncles with their Clydesdale horses as they were carters.He was intrigued with their Fob Watches. When he came back home,he asked Granddad whether he could get one of those watches. Granddad replied,"Nay laddie nay, all you need to ken is that when the sun gets up,you start work and when it goes doone you stop". That was my upbringing.
The farm is now part of a large coastal reserve.
I started hoeing and pruning roses as a lad, for the family business;
and went on to qualify as a horticulturalist. I married into the Dalmatian fraternity and hence into grapes. Our son is a free lance wine maker in Canada; and we are naturally proud of the recognition of some of his wines.
Our other son followed our uncles path, in their cricket and set off to London where he spent some seasons at Lords, the home of cricket. On his return to N.Z.; he has established himself in property services.I have been called out of retirement, to prune anything from grass, to trees and hedges.
You name it, we will prune it.Just don't stand too close when we at your property.
Cheers .

Father Ron Smith said...

Further on the theology of 'pruning', my wife, Diana, tell me that my attempts in the garden are far too ruthless. However, she does not pass any comment on my other theological capability - gleaned via a life of 88 years, time as a Franciscan religious, 3 years at St.John's Theological College and 37 years of priesthood with its associated pastoralia. However, I still have a lot to learn, and, like Pope Francis' latest utterance (in defence of his Amoris Laetitia), I do have a sharply-honed personal conscience, which the Pope, bless him, declares as of paramount importance to our moral compass.

Anonymous said...

Fathers Glen and Ron, this is Dallas Willard on Postmodern Holiness--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rej2axwlqb8

BW

Anonymous said...

Glen, you have had more experience with pruning than I have had, and, I suspect, much more success.

One great-grandfather lived in the old Church of England glebe for Amelia in Virginia, and that old house had a maze of boxwood where I tried topiary before my very youthful skills were quite ready for it. Another great-grandfather had orchards in the Blue Ridge where my grandfather worried that my cutting might damage the apple and peach trees, although their main problem was having been planted by a confused farmhand in the unfavourable soil of the wrong field. A couple years ago, I made wine in Cambridge, Massachusetts with an old man from an Apennine village in the Campania. No pruning was required as the grapes were already harvested, but although the result was potable, no awards were won. This year, my herb garden was gratifyingly productive, but snipping all the buds off day by day required unfailing vigilance.

Next spring, in commemoration of the Reformation, I shall see how hops grow. Because Rome in those days taxed gruit, Continental Protestants came to prefer beer flavoured with hops. The Dutch hops cultivated in Kent from the 1520s reached Virginia in the 1620s, but they thrive nearer the N 48th parallel where my own experimental plot will rise sunward. Alas, the parable of the sower is much on my mind, but I suppose that too has some commemorative value.

BW

Glen Young said...


Dear Bowman,
Am always delighted to share a yarn or two fellow gardeners at the end of the day. I leave the wine making to Nik, as he has the discipline to allow it to mature.On his way up the ladder, he did work for Paul Hobbs in California. James did go across to Austria from London; to meet him at a vine yard where he was working.The Austrian owner was extremely hospitable and much wine flowed along with a lot of glorious food. On our visits to see Jim, we often went down to the South of England and enjoyed the cider.

Have now been called out of retirement to help Jim with his Property Maintenance business; the words of Rudyard Kipling's poem, often come to mind: "Glorious gardens are not made, by sitting under the shade of old Oak trees, saying, oh yea, how beautiful;..........Better men than we have set out upon their working lives, pulling weeds from drives with broken knives".

Hope the herb garden is successful.Cheers.

Glen Young said...

Hi Bowman,
cont. We seem to have introduced another topic into the thread; but what with wine,Rome taxing gruit and Continental Protestants preferring beer flavoured with hops,we may just snuck it past.

The study of plants and their uses, formed an intriguing part of my student days; as you point out, the movement of Dutch hops to Kent and onto Virginia with the social and economic effects along the line.Passing through Kent and seeing the lines of hops growing up their strings was always an enjoyable experience. So we wish you well with the trial of hops,will be interested to hear how they crop.

Though dressing the Creator's Garden is a physically hard way of
making a living; it is spiritually rewarding.From one gardener to another, I hope the seeds you sow land on fertile soil and thrive. Cheers.

anonymous anonymous said...

Concerning the Filioque part of creed, it is true that Jesus breathed onto the disciples and said "recieve ye the Holy Spirit" ? This action being before Pentecost, where (floating) fire was the visible presence, rather than here where Christ himself is the visual queue. The debate itself, perhaps highlights the divinity of the biblical Resurrected Jesus, and the humanity of the trinitarian son Jesus.
But as in any case of debate about "divine inspiration", a society which doesn't openly explain Genesis 1 in terms of high-school mathematics (entirely possible), surely has a poor understanding of notions of spirit , notions which ignore biblical facts.