A few posts down I drew attention to an article by Christina Rees re the future of the CofE.
Rees called into question the focus on parish work - in effect, parishes have had their day.
Or have they?
Michael Bird, also from Down Under, in a village on the West Island, has responded here.
What do you think?
16 comments:
Peter; well Bird is more entertaining, but I tend to agree with Rees. In New Zealand we have Pentecostal churches that have no parishes (sometimes just one Church) but they attract people from all over their area because of what they offer. Likewise, where there are parishes in established traditions, people happily go to the neighbouring parish or travel across a city to the Cathedral or to their favourite evangelicals. People find community over larger areas than in former centuries and will travel. I don’t think super churches are a bad thing. As long as they are structured with leaders and groups, the Sunday meeting itself can seem like a Cathedral. I do agree with Bird about pandering to false ideas of millennials. Some people have made a lot of money telling us what millennials are like and how we should treat them. I never meet the narcissistic, shallow, navel-gazing tablet twits that I have learned so much about.
Nick
I agree with Bird's critique:
"... notice words that Rees didn’t use in her article: “worship,” “Jesus,” “Scripture,” and “discipleship.” In a frankly bizarre and stunning omission, she left out everything that constitutes the marks of a true church and what actually are the best things about church! The magnetic power of Jesus, the mystery of the sacraments, joining something ancient, the joy of worship, hearing God’s word preached with passion, rejoicing and lament, discipleship, mentoring, sharing in life together, a global communion, baptisms-marriages-funerals, and mission."
And I agree with Rees that the elements of inteaction and flexibility just make sense as does community engagement. But we who belong to churches also already belong to communities already and there is a lot to learn in learning to speak the name of Jesus and live it in the communities we already belong to.
Hi Peter, I saw Rees in the confines of the publication that she writes for. I agree with Jonathan that mention of bread and butter concepts is woefully lacking, but The Guardian is traditionallly blood red or at least angry pink.
Nick
Dear Nick
Like The Tablet?
:)
Hi Peter; yes. I receive The Tablet every week, but haven’t read a page of it for years.
Nick
Thank you, Peter, for moving our discussion of synods onto interesting new ground. It now belongs here.
BW
Hi Peter; I suppose that asking a parochial church to speculate on the demise of parishes was never going to get 100 comments. I’m not sure that the demise of parishes means the demise of the Church though. All types of clubs struggle nowadays to get people to turn up. I went to mass, but I’d be just as keen sometimes to hear a podcast and concentrate on some lay ministry that I do instead of going to the Godbox. We don’t need parishes in their current form and I think the subject of their demise deserves some consideration. The topic is far more pressing than the other current distractions.
Nick
Precisely Nick!
Speaking of Godboxes, what I appreciate most about the four diverse services / gatherings I participate in is the focus on Jesus and the informal community aspect. While I agree that some parishes might not continue in their current form I don't think these two bits or the elements of the liturgy are ever dispensable.
I am now emboldened to put "exploration of the parish system" on my posting "agenda" for weeks/months ahead.
I had an interesting experience yesterday, attending two entirely different but very Anglican services with almost exactly the same number of congregation present, in two different (and well organised) parishes!
Hi Peter; I do not know which parishes in your diocese you are referring to. As a matter of interest, would these parishes be able to exist as separate churches? I assume the answer is “yes”.
Nick
Hi Nick
I think these parishes appreciate the interconnection, support, and collegiality that comes from being in our Diocese.
In the short term most parishes can exist as separate churches, in the long term most parishes enjoy a supply of priests which comes through Diocesan processes of discernment and programmes for training.
Or is your question heading in a different direction?
Hi Peter; no my question was not headed in a different direction. I have, however, always been fascinated by parishes that exist in spite of their diocese/ denomination. In Dunedin, for example, this might be St Matthew’s, Holy Name or DCBC. The denomination of the parish in these churches was/is? almost irrelevant. In fact, the congregation could easily have overlap with Elim or open brethren.
Nick
Hi Nick
On that score, no, I don't think my visits were to congregations which were "generic" rather than "(Anglican) specific."
St Matt's has been an important part of my life - as a child when my father was vicar there (1960s) and as a student in my 20s (1980s).
Nick said:
" All types of clubs struggle nowadays to get people to turn up. I went to mass, but I’d be just as keen sometimes to hear a podcast and concentrate on some lay ministry that I do instead of going to the Godbox."
A very interesting observation Nick - especially from a committed Roman Catholic.
I would have thought for instance, that you would want to uphold the
Orthodox/Catholic precept of public worship around the altar, where the primary focus is the Author of the Church, Jesus Christ. This, after all, is what the Roman Catholics I know (who still go to Church) base their spiritual life around - the gathering of the congregation at the Mass.
Surely this beats the relative anonymity of 'listening to' or 'looking in on' a podcast. To me, an Anglo-Catholic, the worship-centered priority in my life is to be present with Christ and his family in the Eucharist - an activity which, uniquely, equips me for that ministry to and in the outside world which you seem to rate above your witness to - and reception of - the grace available in the Sacrament?
I feel this recognition of the Sacraments of the Church - witnessed to in the community of the Church - to be a most powerful incentive (for me, personally) to 'go out an preach the Good News' of Christ's redemption - of all who look to him for salvation.
I suppose my question is: Can you be a 'good Catholic' without attending Mass?
Hi Fr Ron; I do not disagree. Under canon law Roman Catholics must go to mass on Sundays and those other holy days of obligation determined by the bishops’ conference. In NZ there are only two more. I agree that the beauty of Catholic worship is the sharing of the real presence in the holy sacrifice of the mass. However, reception of Christ’s body is not the reason for the Sunday obligation. Those in mortal sin must still attend but cannot partake of the feast. I often abstain if I need to go to reconciliation. The Sunday obligation is a protection against idolatry. Christian podcasts albeit a solo affair are Christ-focused and often beat the homily for inspiration. So, I do not say that people should neglect Church, but listening to Podcasts is not idolatry.
Nick
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