Saturday, August 11, 2018

Staying the (impaired) course (updated)

LATEST: See now this post at Liturgy.

ORIGINAL: The following Tweets (re the Diocese of Nelson Synod meeting this weekend) speak for themselves:






There is more to report than this but I am awaiting some published news about another motion the Synod considered and, I understand, passed. I will update when some kind of linked news comes to hand.

UPDATE: please read this snipped picture of a Twitter feed this afternoon from the bottom to the top. In another motion the Diocese of Nelson synod has clearly signalled a couple of things re the situation in our church. I would welcome Nelson commenters filling us in on "impaired" and "support and recognition" ...


23 comments:

Father Ron Smith said...

Deo Gratias. I'm glad that Sam has decided to stay! Prayers answered?

Father Ron Smith said...

Dear Peter, re Trevor Morrison's Tweet (2), will this mean that the Nelson Docese has a foot in both camps (ACANZP & GAFCON/FOCA) thus, itself, becoming divided? This, surely would bring about a situation of intentional 'double-mindedness' that both Bryden and Bowman have indicated would be unustainble within ACANZP.

Unknown said...

What Bible-believing folk must be wondering, Father Ron, is what, if anything, is meant-- scripturally, ecclesially, and practically-- by "impaired." One foggy innovation is not answered well by another.

BW

TrevDev said...

To Fr Ron: Synod amended the original motion, which would have offered full support" to those have disaffiliated, so that it just offers "support". We wanted the wording to tacitly show that, while we offer sympathetic, fraternal support, the ball remains in our court. And (not in the wording, but true) our court is firmly within the ACANZP.

Unknown said...

But yes, if Sam will still be around, that is heartening news indeed. I look forward to more of his thoughtful comments here.

BW

Peter Carrell said...

Dear All
Acknowledging that some clarity re meanings of words etc is important, I myself am overjoyed that Nelson remains in table fellowship with the remainder of ACANZP, where we continue to talk, even if someone refuses to pass me the salt and pepper!

I have no difficulty at all with "support and recognition" where that means we continue to care for and pray for each other (as I will be doing re departing clergy and parishioners here in Dio Chch) and to recognise each other's ministries (as I will be doing here also). We may be divided in polity but we can still meet for coffee.

Father Ron Smith said...

Thank you, Trevor, for your explanation of the reality of the Nelson Diocesan decision to remain, as Peter says here, in 'Table Fellowship' with our sisters and brothers in ACANZP. This certainly distinguishes them from the like of GAFCON, which has cut itself off from such fellowhip with those of us Anglicans who affirm the need for radical inclusion of ALL Anglicans in our Church.

Dear Bowdon, most of us are at this time unaware of Sam's actual position. My prayer is that he will remain part of us in ACANZP. Perhaps Sam, hiself, will enlightren us?

Keith Buck said...

I would caution against reading too much into a few tweets about one motion. The passing of part of Sam's motion needs to be read in conjunction with a prior motions regarding Nelson's relationship with ACANZP, and the relationship with those who are choosing to leave. By the way, the other major item at Synod was the announcement of +Richard's retirement.

Anonymous said...

Hi Peter; is there sede vacante in the see of Nelson ?
Nick

Peter Carrell said...

Thanks Keith - welcome to commenting on this site!

Hi Nick, yes from the end of this year (I understand that is the c. date for the announcement Keith mentions.)

Liturgy said...

Dear Keith or others,

So that we don't "read too much into a few tweets about one motion", please can the full motion as it was passed be posted in a comment. My understanding is that there is (pretty obviously from the tweets) a preamble - please can that be given in full. Keith speaks of "a prior motions regarding Nelson's relationship with ACANZP, and the relationship with those who are choosing to leave" - please can that be given in full.

Blessings

Bosco

Father Ron Smith said...

Hi, Nick. Are you looking to apply for the post of Bishop of Nelson? From your comments on ADU, I would think you would have a pretty good chance of getting the job (after ministerial ordination of course).

Peter Carrell said...

Dear Ron and Nick
While I would be very happy to have a theologian of Nick's calibre on the ACANZP bench of bishops, I need to point out to you, Ron, that such a personalised comment only just gets published.

It is not quite an ad hominem comment but it comes too close for comfort for my liking. Please comment on comments and not on commenters. I am publishing your comment on the grounds that it can be read whimsically.

Of course if Nick objects to it, it will be deleted.

Anonymous said...

Hi Fr Ron; you do Nelson a disservice in suggesting they’d want me.

Peter; I think I left myself open to Fr Ron’s quick wit.

Nick

Father Ron Smith said...

No offence meant, Nick - pure whimsy - Mea Culpa!

Unknown said...

If Nick is interested, Fuegos del Infierno in the Anglican Province of Parador remains open as its bishop-elect was denied consecration last week. Although not known for his flexibility in doctrine or discipline, the archbishops were surprised when only paramedics could extract the celibate priest from the unexpected companionship of a circus contortionist from Brazil. (In keeping with Peter's policy, I hereby suppress all further identifying information.) The diocese desires a bishop able to engage its small Roman Catholic majority of homosexuals, divorcees, German retirees, and admirers of Francis. The APP worships with the Spanish and Latin recensions of the BCP.

BW

Anonymous said...

I am not very familiar with the Province of Parador, although it sounds as though it might be suitable for certain under-employed TEC bishops, 'de cuyo nombres no quiero acordarme'. They have the same grasp of reality as the hidalgo from La Mancha. But as for Nelson, I can say that when Derek Eaton was elected Bishop, he was asked rather sardonically how it felt to be the last Bishop of that diocese, so he set about disproving that particular prophecy. Now I suspect other dioceses (Dunedin? Waikato?) are more likely to disappear first. The tide in New Zealand is very antithetical to Christianity, with left-leaning post-Christian political correctness now the regnant ideology, no better illustrated than by the ex-Mormon atheist euthanasia-loving unmarried mother at the helm. (Marriage? Who needs that? A patriarchal trap of oppression, as legions of university feminists and lesbian theorists have sternly admonished us. And of course, boys don't need fathers. Two mothers are just as good - and if you say otherwise, I will have to shut down your hate speech in the name of NZ's fabled "diversity".) The population continues to grow, largely thanks to immigration from Asia, and if any church has a chance of survival in the shaky isles, it will be through outreach to and conversion of the younger Asian immigrant population. But can you seriously see NZ Anglicanism doing that? The rest of the country seems intent on becoming a cut-rate version of post-Christian pc Sweden without the money or (so far) the Muslim immigrant community. How long can that last?

Guillermo

Keith Buck said...

The preamble and notes to the prior motion ran to 5 pages, but essentially Nelson Synod does not recognise the recent amendments by General Synod, questioning their legality because they clearly diminish the Doctrine of Christ in the formularies. Having done so, Nelson Diocese is obviously in an impaired (please note not broken - just not as good) relationship with some portions of our church, which leads to the passing of the second motion.
Synod also passed a motion to seek to affiliate with AFFIRM. Having done this, the second part of the motion to support leaving churches simply restated the obvious.
Debates were robust and long, and while there is sadness about events in our church, there was very little support for leaving at the present time.

Matt said...

It is unclear to me what is being said, or not said, here - either from the original post or the comments! Where can we see or hear the discussion prior to the motion (or motions as is suggested took place)?

Is the original post implying some subsequent impact on other dioceses?

It would also be interesting to know what other business was discussed at the synod. A search for Nelson Synod doesn't show up much - although it does come up with a report on the 1904 meeting - where the selling of alcohol in the colonies is of concern ('a great evil..').

Peter Carrell said...

DEar Matt and other commenters

See now: http://liturgy.co.nz/nelsons-impaired-fellowship

Father Ron Smith said...

I, like Matt, on looking up the website of the Nelson Diocese, found nothing of the recent proceedings of the Synod, nor of any other matters of recent interest either in the diocese or ACANZP at large. This does seem to me rather indicative of the life of a diocese that appears so far out of kilter with the need of the Church to keep up communication about its relevance to the exigencies ot today's world - as to not bother with the use of its own website to communicate on matters of vital importance to the Church in the world.

As for William's (yes, Wills, you can't disguise your identity under that foreign signature) comment on the demise of small dioceses like Nelson; he obviously has not caught up with the fact that Dunedin has elected a dynamic and charismatic Bishop who has just hosted a successful 'Anglo-Catholic Hui' - recalling our Anglican Province to its mission of spiritual, sacramental and pastoral ministry to ALL Anglicans in Aotearoa - not just the holy and the good..

Father Ron Smith said...

Following Keith's news that the Nelson Diocese has 'signed up' to a relationship wth 'AFFIRM', I am asking; how would this compare with signing up to a relationship with 'FCANZ', that other quasi-Anglican body raised up in the recent history of our Church?

What is the precise relationship between these two marginsl sodalities?

How does any of this relate to the priestly prayer of Jesus that "All may be One"?

Peter Carrell said...

Dear Ron
Individual churches or Dioceses signing up to the Christian Community being organised by AFFIRM is provided for by the legislation determined by GS 2018 and is a sodality within the common life of ACANZP.

Anglicans who belong to FCANZ or who align themselves with GAFCON include those who are committed to staying in ACANZP and those who are departing its polity.