There is an ongoing local church story which reappeared in The Press on Saturday - here - and tangentially refers to me, but the reference to me is not the point of this post.
What kind of Christ (or, should that be "Christ") is worshipped and, in the eucharist, received, who leads and nourishes a congregation in such a direction of doctrinal purity that it becomes at odds with its local and global leadership when those leaders are faithful and godly men?
(I am raising the question somewhat rhetorically - answers not expected in the comments.)
There is not one verse in Scripture which encourages us to think of eternal fellowship with the Trinity as reserved for the doctrinally pure. There are many verses in Scripture which highlight the extraordinary grace of God, the untraceable extent of God's love, and the inordinate variety of people who constitute the diverse church of God.
The Johannine Christians, the Petrine Christians, the Pauline Christians, the Jacobite [James] Christians, the Jewish Christians [think Matthew's Gospel] - all will be with God for eternity and if we believe we will be among them, we could reasonably, and helpfully, begin to prepare ourselves ecumenically for our extraordinary future as the heavenly saints constituted in one body.
Otherwise, heaven is going to be a shock.
There are not going to be separate enclosures for the purer than pure Catholics and for the purer than pure Protestants. Nor for each of the branches of Orthodoxy that have fallen out with each other!
10 comments:
"The humble, meek, merciful, pious, and devout souls are everywhere of one religion; and when death has taken off the mask they will know one another, though the divers liveries they wear here makes them strangers." William Penn, 1693.
Lovely quote, thanks Mark, to +Peter’s post. It could apply in a different way to the fascinating but definitely disturbing article at the end of last week’s post.
I went on to read another Press article about the same Monks from 30-Nov-24, and it's a very strange business, hard to fathom, even bizarre! But I also found an ODT article about the founder's childhood and family background (Central Otago/Southland) and about the island in Orkney that the Order owns. The back story is fascinating - a guy who always wanted to be a priest and ended up travelling, set up a monastery in England, moved to France, then bought an ancient monastic island in Orkney. Amazing... https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/central-otago/former-central-priest-sets-orkneys-order
Thanks for the link, Liz. Miriamo Kamon did an interesting documentary on them when they were living out Geraldine way, I think.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/08/22/sundays-miriama-kamo-on-her-time-with-isolated-canterbury-monks/
I can certainly feel the awe and spiritual attraction of monastic life in the wilderness, and on Papa Stronsay. The wild call to solitude, simple community, elemental communion, and timeless presence is very attractive. Even more so these days, perhaps, with the challenges that both the planet and masculinity face.
But then the doctrine, the beliefs, the hostility to the body and the feminine, the unstinting purity. My spirit wilts! All the worst of "traditional church/traditional consciousness" that we are called to move beyond.
"Kamo". Autocorrect!
This controversy points to something montrous about traditional church, though. What is the harm in a handful of people reciting the traditional Latin mass as opposed to, say, the official correct updated Vatican one? It's not just one side being doctrinally pure, controlling, and intolerant, but both. Both mirror each other - and therefore can't get beyond this impasse.
Beyond this impasse....Jesus spoke of a time, and very soon, when we will worship neither in temple nor on the mountain but "in spirit and truth".
Thank YOU! Mark ... this is a tremendous video. Absolutely riveting. Mostly American funding.. interesting. I was wondering how they could afford these properties they own! It's a startlingly beautiful and fascinating video-story. At the same time, it beggars belief they're privileged to live this very special life - and yet they're so aggressive and defiant in their conduct toward their own church authorities. It's like two very different faces, or I guess, "Jekyll and Hyde". I feel a concern for the young novice, how will it go for him I wonder? On the face of it, there's such beauty and commitment and strength. And yet.. also a formidable dark side underlying the Order.
Hi again Mark, re your 9:17am comment I wondered that too. But separate to that, what I've read today about their Order is very, very concerning. I mean, their account of themselves almost always exonerates themselves (of course!). The Vatican investigation isn't public. An article I've finally come across - from Stuff (26-Jul-23) - is serious stuff indeed, the best I've found so far in outlining the actual alleged issues with this Order. I wonder if you've read it - because your professional expertise would be valuable in determining how much credence can be given to it.. the only name I have any familiarity with is Peter Lineham but the content from him is only minor.
Sorry, I missed out the Stuff article link....
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350476048/paddy-gower-has-issues-catholic-order-accused-of-abuse-of-power-unauthorised-exorcisms
Hi Liz,
I wondered if we'd talk about the exorcism issue. I was treating it as separate from the question of whether or whether they can't have church approval to say their Latin mass. Maybe they can't be separate, though it makes it all more tricky.
The exorcism issue raises many questions.
Sine of these relate to the power a Bishop seems to have over those possessed by the devil and those wanting to cast the devil out. Peter is surely the right person here to comment. I can't make head or tail of it, theologically, TBH.
I have zilch experience with true exorcisms though I have been part of 'house cleansings'. I have second hand experience from an experienced colleague (a psychotherapist who is also a trained Christian minister) who attended some exorcisms, and in almost all cases - maybe all - he concluded they were actually instances of serious, undiagnosed, untreated mental illness.
I have been involved with some very strange, intense behaviour and happenings that occur in deep therapeutic work and psychiatric illness. These always have a holistic dimension - with emotional, physical, and spiritual etc threads.
Issues of forceful, traumatizing religious "prayer" was recently considered by our parliament when it passed laws against conversion therapy. I have certainly worked with people who have had "the spirit of homosexuality" (etc numerous spirits of "sin") "prayed out" of them. All of those experiences were violent, abusive, and devoid of love, in my view.
This brings up a bigger political question and tension for liberal democracies - the right of minority cultures (including indigenous peoples!) and religions to freely enact their religious/cultural beliefs vs the human rights of individuals to not be coerced and subject to (psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, physically, sexually) abusive behaviour, including being subject to cults.
On the above tension, I skew towards the liberal side. I would have liked to see the abuse reported in the transalpine brothers' exorcisms handled by the police rather than the church. Apart from anything else, the church has a terrible record of policing itself. I have no idea what laws the police might use. Maybe we need new laws against coercive, manipulative, abusive religious behaviour, such as exorcism and cuts.
Personally, I would like a community like Gloriavale to be expelled from NZ. Their beliefs and practices feel too incompatible with basic rights , especially for children and women.
It would also be interesting to hear from someone with more knowledge and experience of cults.
Personally, the idea of exorcisms in the full thronged Catholic sense feels abhorrent and medieval to me.
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