I am very glad to have the contributions made in comments to my post on hell (see below). The subject of hell is theologically demanding, partly because it seems to place the gracious love of God in conflict with the holy justice of God, and partly because (as Rob Bell makes a play in Love Wins) one can come up with lots of puzzles about hell as a destination for people (e.g. the question 'What about those who have never heard the gospel?'). So, here are a few thoughts buzzing in my mind - a few thoughts, not a complete theology - as I prepare for Sunday night's sermon:
To the extent that heaven and hell are responses to how we live our lives on earth, both are required. There could not be a meaningfulness to morality or to justice if (say) the abused and the abusers reach the same end beyond the grave. (Something of this conception is at work in the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:19-31).
To the extent that heaven is the location of God in which the people of God enjoy the unmediated fullness of God's presence, then hell is the absence of God and the location to which all anti-God forces are consigned. (Althought Revelation does not mention 'hell' something of this conception is at work in this vision of the seer John).
To the extent that heaven and hell are outcomes to our acceptance or rejection of the gospel, again, the question arises whether meaningfulness would be associated with either 'gospel' (what would be 'good news' about it if it does not matter whether we accept or reject it?) or 'human dignity' (the honour God accords us by creating us with genuine freedom to choose to accept or reject the gospel). If God overrides our freedom to choose how we live our lives, then we are not free. (It is very important that we acknowledge that our Lord himself lived with the rejection of the gospel by those he encountered, notably in Luke 18:18-30).
To the extent that heaven and hell are words in our human language used to describe futures we have not experienced and which is also revealed to us as a future beyond our imagining (1 Corinthians 2:9), it is important to be agnostic about the detail of what these futures involve. Some of our unease about hell may be due to presuming we understand fully from this side of the grave what the other side will be experienced as. On this side of the grave we tangle ourselves in theological knots over the question of "annihilation" versus "everlasting punishment" when, in reality, we have no idea what either fate would involve in respect of states we call "death", "pain", "torment" and the like.
Finally, I have always liked C.S. Lewis' insight that heaven is not a reward like promotion and a pay rise is a reward for hard work, it is more like marriage is a reward for courtship, an appropriate destination for a particular journey (I cannot recall where he wrote that). It is hard to see how heaven will be (so to speak) heavenly for those who have rejected God, let alone for those who persist in rejecting God no matter how many gracious entreaties are made.
8 comments:
"Can love win over our rejection of love?" - Peter Carrell -
The short answer to that question, Peter, might be that - as the angel Gabriel said to Mary, on the question of Elizabeth's conception of John the Baptist: "Nothing is impossible for God".
One only has to look at those human parents who still love their errant children - no matter what their attitude towards the parent might be. If this is possible for the children of God, is it not possible for God too?
The more important facet of this whole question is: Would God want to take back the gift of free will that he has bestowed on humanity?
We can reject God! But, will God reject us - in the end? If so, then that would be Hell for the rejected
"There could not be a meaningfulness to morality or to justice if (say) the abused and the abusers reach the same end beyond the grave".
As an incest survivor I have a slightly different perspective on this. It is my whole-hearted hope that the perpetrator of many years of violence against me is so completely transformed and redeemed by the love of God, the holiness of God, that we do indeed both share fully in "heaven" - whatever exactly that post-death reality might be. I imagine heaven to be a reality in which there is a full measure of the reconciliation offered in Christ and while I hold no fantasy of a a face-to-face reunion with my abuser in which everything is made right between us personally, I do hope he is "made well" in Christ: restored and redeemed. Of course, I hope this for myself too! I can not see the hope in him continuing to be the distorted and violent person he is in this life - my hope is in Christ's redeeming work.
(my apology, I know you prefer not to have anonymous comments on this blog but hope you'll see the pastoral need for a degree of privacy!)
Hi Hopeful Survivor,
Completely understood re not using your own name.
I could have been more precise: God's reconciling and redeeming work does mean that all may be saved, victim and persecutor together.
But without that special work of grace, based on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, then "There could not be a meaningfulness to morality or to justice if (say) the abused and the abusers reach the same end beyond the grave".
(Hope that makes sense!)
"There could not be a meaningful-ness to morality or to justice if (say) the abused and the abuser reach the same beyond the grace" - Peter Carrell -
I presume you are speaking her of 'human morality' & 'human justice'? Otherwise, you are limiting God to human standards of (so-called) morality and justice. We only have to read the story of the workers in the vineyard to realise that God;'s justice is infinitely more generous than ours.
And as for morality; Jesus, in the Scriptures, frequently points to the Pharisees on that question - when he stated that 'prostitutes and sinners' would get into heaven before their accusers.
For the Scribes and the Pharisees, Jesus was much to 'liberal' for his own good. That's why they had him put to death.
Jesus has already made the final sacrifice for our sin. God does not require further sacrifice - only our love! "What I require is mercy and not sacrifice"
I think the comments of anonymous are very moving and highly relevant, they give us perhaps a glimpse of God's ability to love and forgive and to redeem. To long for and work to bring about the redemption of your persecutor is an example of selfless love. I think Carl said love was soft, but the love and grace anonymous is showing is very hard for most of us!
Very interesting! Peter, you write,
"To the extent that heaven and hell are outcomes to our acceptance or rejection of the gospel, again, the question arises whether meaningfulness would be associated with either 'gospel' (what would be 'good news' about it if it does not matter whether we accept or reject it?) or 'human dignity' (the honour God accords us by creating us with genuine freedom to choose to accept or reject the gospel). If God overrides our freedom to choose how we live our lives, then we are not free. (It is very important that we acknowledge that our Lord himself lived with the rejection of the gospel by those he encountered, notably in Luke 18:18-30)."
You identify some important issues. But I don't think anyone is saying that, "it does not matter whether we accept or reject God" Of course it matters! The question is more, could God bring about a position where all accepted him? Could he woo the souls of humankind to that extent in some way - perhaps as Julian of Norwich suggested by some act to be done near the end of time?
Could God do this without violating our free will? I do not believe God would "force" anyone to accept him. In fact you cannot force love, so I think not!
The question is could/ would God "woo" fallen mankind to an extent that the sinful and hard hearted would melt in the face of his love and holiness? He says he will take away our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh.
I am thinking of that song "you made me love you, I didn't want to do it".(sorry if Carl wants to throw up:) )
Personally, I believe in hell. I was also sexually abused and the verse - (I think it is Matthew 18 )of the millstone round the neck and thrown into the sea verse for those who harm or mislead children had a lot of appeal for me! That's the sort of nasty, vengeful not-very-good-at- forgiveness, I- want-justice and they-deserve-to-rot sort of person I am! But I sometimes get a glimpse of God that suggests he is not like that at all!
That's a challenge for me!
Thank you Ron and Suem for commenting here.
Thank you Suem for your honesty re your own personal hell.
In my heart I like to think that God infinitely woos us. In my head I ask where God's revelation gives me confidence that what my heart likes is a true state of affairs.
I'm glad you admit to a heart-felt feeling of God's infinite mercy, Peter. We need constantly to be reminded that God's justice and Mercy go together, and that God's justice is far more merciful that we deserve. That's perhaps why the message of the Gospels is 'Good News' - somtehing we are commissioned to preach about - not the alternative, which we already know about from our own experience.
Post a Comment