Thursday, December 22, 2016

Love reaches out to all, including ...

It has been extremely refreshing in recent weeks on this blog to find that there is a topic or two other than You Know What which generates long strings of comments, to say nothing of strong arguments, robustly mounted against this blogwriter.

This "topic or two" is a bit of a mix of standing against Trumpism and standing for welcoming Muslim migration (with some obvious caveats).

Nothing I have read recently better captures the sense I have that a welcoming country like NZ should welcome Muslims along with other people groups than this Stuff article.

All people living in NZ at some point in a past of 1000-1200 years at the most have been or their forebears have been migrants moving from one land to another in search of a better life.

Long may it continue!

11 comments:

Father Ron said...

Thank you, Peter, for this thought-provoking thread. May your lead-up to Christmas be filled with Peace and Joy.

It is always good to remember that a primary charism of Christianity is open hospitality - a stable necessity!

Veni, Emmanuel!

Shawn Herles said...

"All people living in NZ at some point in a past of 1000-1200 years at the most have been or their forebears have been migrants moving from one land to another in search of a better life."

True, but misleading. After a time the "migrants" effectively become indigenous and develop a culture and a relationship with the land that has it's own uniqueness and value, and that newer migrants don't necessarily share. When immigration is kept to low and sustainable levels, this is not a problem. When it is at the levels that have been forced upon European nations and the USA, it does become a problem.

As an immigrant to NZ myself I do not advocate closing the borders and I am grateful for the hospitality this country has shown me. But I do advocate that immigration not be allowed to radically change what has become over time the traditional culture here. That would be a tragic loss. What is good about living in NZ cannot be separated from the culture that both Maori and the European colonists created.

As for Muslim immigration, no. That is, as we have just seen in Germany, playing Russian Roulette with the lives of Kiwi's. Merely because most of the chambers in the pistol do not have bullets in them, one or two absolutely will, and sooner or later if we keep pulling that trigger Kiwis will die. That is not acceptable. It is not worth the risk. And far from being an example of compassion, it is a heartless and cavalier attitude to the lives and safety of the New Zealand people.

The evidence from Europe and the US is clear and unarguable. As a whole, Muslims do not integrate, and do not come to respect and share the host countries culture, and violence and terrorism come with them.

"long may it continue" where Islam is concerned is calling for blood and death, sooner or later.

By the way, I wonder how your "we are all immigrants" argument would be received if you made it on a Marae?

Peter Carrell said...

Hi Shawn
Great question re marae!
I think the answer (or part of the answer) is that we expect all new migrants to this country to understand their status as visitors and not as tangata whenua.

Glen Young said...



How wonderful and nice all this buzz buzz around Christmas is.

But will someone be kind enough to give them the real Christmas present-the TRUTH about Jesus Christ !!! They may have found new lives in N.Z.;but they need to find new lives in Christ.

Shawn Herles said...

Peter,

the very phrase "tangata whenua" drives a stake through your "we are all immigrants" argument. When any people have existed in a land for over a hundred years or more, the "we are all immigrants" line becomes meaningless. As an argument for Muslim immigration, it does not work. Then again, no argument I have seen does.

Sooner or later Islamic terrorism will come to this country if we continue with your preferred policy. It may already be too late. That is not an IF, it is a WHEN.

Will you be prepared to front up to the families of the dead or maimed and say "yes, I effectively advocated bring them here"?

I wonder what they will think of your version of love?

Anyway, I suspect that no amount of evidence will sway those who confuse Christian love with Liberal political policy, so that's me for a while. Over and out.

Merry Christmas all.

Peter Carrell said...

Hi Shawn
In my experience the hospitality of Maori to migrants flows from a recognition that once upon a time Maori also were visitors here.

My preferred policy is not Merkelism as I am all for appropriate vetting of migrants as to their background.

Nevertheless I am not saying there is no point of difference between you and I on our points of view.

We are agreed that Merry Christmas may be wished to all
P

Glen Young said...


"....is that we expect all new migrants to this country to understand their status as visitors and not as Tangata Whenua." Peter.

Are joking or are you being serious.These so called refugees are never considered visitors.They are welcomed with open arms and given homes.Why did they not go to a Muslim country like Indonesia.They want the life style which the Christian West has developed;but don't want to integrate into it. Why rush and do the big Christmas thing with them.Are we not always told Christ and His Cross are offensive to Islam.

Through their mother,our children are Tangata Whenua but the can not afford their own home.

Andrei said...

It's true Peter there have always been migrants, people coming to new lands to start a new life.

It is one thing to come to a new land with a job in hand and a family in tow...

... that's a fresh start in a new land


But the difference here is that we are seeing a very large scale migration of predominantly military age males who often do not have the skills to start a new life in their new communities - and among them are a number, who knows how many, with malevolence in their hearts

And the powers that be have no idea what to do with them.

I wonder if this is not actually an act of war against the peoples of Europe whose men have been sissyfied to the point of impotence

One thing is for sure and that is the childless Angela Merkel's days as Chancellor are numbered and her political career over

Andrei said...

"Nothing I have read recently better captures the sense I have that a welcoming country like NZ should welcome Muslims along with other people groups than this Stuff article."

That's all lovely Peter but it is one family not from the Middle East that has been in the system for 21 years and who are getting a lot of one on one assistance in order to be integrated into New Zealand life

What do you do with hundreds of thousands undocumented single young men? What that family are receiving is not feasible with the numbers we are talking about

The fellow they are after for the Berlin atrocity was a criminal in his homeland of Tunisia and imprisoned there, also imprisoned in Italy for criminal activities and still managed to find "asylum" in Germany

Peter Carrell said...

Hi Andrei
I do not have a solution for the massive problem which Europe, in particular, has faced in the past year or three re millions of refugees and other migrants.

I am concerned that some views expressed recently in comment threads on this site would see us in NZ not even welcoming a Rohindras family such as the one reported on.

Glen Young said...


Peter,

Alarm bells start ringing for me, as soon as a person finds it necessary to put a rider on who they are when you first meet; whether it is an alcoholic announcing:"Hey I am Bob and I have been dry for 5 years" or "I am Gay" or "I'm a born again Christian or someone making clear they are Muslim. This person obviously wants me to respond to them via their rider rather than as a person.

This family said they had never been invited to share a Christmas before. Well do you wonder,they make it clear that they belong to a cult which rejects the very person Christmas is about and it them who make the point of being Muslim.

Well, Peter, I have never been invited to take some of our delicious ham down to a Christmas get together at the local mosque.My best advise to the Muslims is:"When in Rome,do as the Romans do".