Thursday, September 21, 2017

More effective than Russian agents influencing America?

Ross Douthat has a fascinating column about the changing character of the Roman Catholic church. While his focus is on the fate of conservatives and liberals in an ongoing series of Inquisitions via internet trials, he recognises at the end that something Anglican is going on!

"Can the church really become Anglican, with sharply different Christian theologies coexisting permanently under a latitudinarian umbrella?"

So my question is, have some sneaky, hidden behind Facebook postings, releases of hacked batches of emails, etc, Anglicans had more influence on the church of Francis than Russian agents have had on the America of Trump?

Naturally I shall take denials from the ABC and Anglican Communion offices as tacit admissions :)

Who would have thought, around, oh, about 2003, when certain things unfolded for Anglicans and conservative Anglicans looked longingly towards Rome as the beacon of unchangeable teaching and unswerving application of that teaching, that 2017 would see the Anglicanization of Rome all but complete!

23 comments:

Andrei said...

Just more American rubbish from the New York Times - the dastardly Russians did not meddle in the US Elections, men marrying other men is an oxymoron, Divorce is a sin, abortion is an abomination and the Christians of Tanzania couldn't care less about the inane burblings of the over privileged inhabitants of Manhattan and Hollywood.

None of us "gay", straight, black, white or polka dotted can live up to the ideals of the Church nor the life of Christ

We try, we do our best and we fail because we are human and fallen

Getting the Church to change its teachings to accommodate our fleshly desires is a ticket to Hell

Repenting our sins and failings is the road to salvation

Andrei said...

Hillary Clinton's book "What Happened" a wordy tome on why she did not achieve her life's ambition to occupy the Oval Office might stand as a metaphor for what is going on here

Her failure is everybody else's fault but hers - she does not look into her own soul and acknowledge her own failings

But this is exactly what we must do as Christians if we want to draw near to God, a far more rewarding proposition than achieving political power or worldly wealth

If sex, money and possessions, social status in various combinations are more important than God in our lives (and we are all seduced one way or another by these things) then they stand in the way of our salvation

Mark 10:17-31
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Father Ron Smith said...

Andrei, have you thought of a possible vocation to the Anglican diocese of Sydney?
I think your reflections here would very much please ex-Archbishop Peter Jensen and his family. You would be able to help him in his work with the GAFCON prelates. However, you would have to sacrifice your principals about a celibate hierarchy, and your preference for an ordered liturgical life. Apart from these 'incidentals', I think you would find Sydney Evangelicals very much of your theological outlook

Jean said...

I know shock horror, I think my Aunty an Anglican who 'married into' catholicity and now preaches (shhhhhh) in a Catholic Church relatively frequently has been part of this covert operation... it must have been happening for decades...

Andrei said...

I don't have to sacrifice anything Fr Ron - what I expressed above is Orthodox (with an uppercase "O") and orthodox (with a lower case "o") Christian theology.

We all might be tempted to rewrite God in our own image to remake His Church to deliver to us what we want - many have done this, which is why we see "pastors" with private jets and also why we shouldn't be surprised when some of these people come unstuck like being found consorting with gay prostitutes for example

Peter made a comment the other day about Russian Orthodox priests who cooperated with the state in the days of the USSR - something that caused a rift in the Russian Church which is very nearly but not completely healed today

And in Nazi occupied Europe some clerics collaborated with the Fascists of course, in very nasty ways

A question for you, if you adapt the church you attend to conform to the current zeitgeist aren't you exhibiting the similar behaviour?

Didn't the English Anglican Church just ordain women bishops because the Prime Minister of England David Cameron more or less told them to? And hasn't that caused a rift in the English church?

And the Danish Lutheran Church was forced a few years ago into performing "gay marriages" a change driven by a Danish Government Minister who was not born a Dane, is not a Lutheran (even though as minister of religious affairs he was head of the Danish Church) and in fact is not even a Christian but a professed agnostic.

You can count on the fact that I have lot more in common with a humble Ethiopian priest than with an American Aristocrat like Ross Douthat or an English public schoolboy with a PPE from Oxford when it comes to spiritual outlook.

If we have to head to the catacombs to hold fast to the Faith as we received it so be it

Anonymous said...

Yes, Jean, everyone should be so lucky as to have a rebel aunt ;-)

Bowman Walton

Father Ron Smith said...

I've long thought, Peter, that Pope Francis would make an excellent Archbishop of Canterbury. He would have brought a clean sweep to the Church of England - very much like his illustrious predecessor, Theodore of Tarsus (ABC), whose Feast day we celebrated recently at SMAA.

Anonymous said...

Hi Fr Ron; I agree. Where do we drop him off?

Nick

Anonymous said...

Fr Ron; do you read me? Where?

Peter Carrell said...

Hi Nick
A series of trains through Europe will get Francis to London Waterloo. We are just trying to locate which London station the trains for Kent depart from.

Anonymous said...

A trip to Canterbury isn’t necessary. Waterloo is close to Lambeth Palace.

Nick

Peter Carrell said...

Yes, Nick, but there would be an installation first :)

Anonymous said...

"I am senior to you. By one day." -- + + + Francis to + + Justin, 14 June 2013

This all assumes that + + Justin would be willing to step down to become + + + Justin. He is a humble man, for an archbishop, but he loves the House of Lords, and he greatly prefers Paris to Rome, as anyone would. The papacy is more work for less pay, and about the same level of conflict everlasting with self-righteous prigs, left and right. Most important, he has high hopes that his cricket team will again prevail against Francis's. Rome is not worth the match.

BW

Father Ron Smith said...

- except for Swan Vesta - that so excellent match! - entirely British

Anonymous said...

Hi Bowman; the only English speaking Pope, I’d want is Raymond Burke, but he’s probably unelectable. Justin hasn’t turned around the C of E’s decline despite the C of E’s advantage as the state Church. So, you can keep Justin, particularly since Fr Ron doesn’t want Francis after all.

Nick

Anonymous said...

Actually, +++ Francis is twice as senior to ++ Justin as I reported. According to the Catholic Herald and other sources, the Pope's actual words were "I am senior to you-- by *two* days." Emphasis added.

In other news important to the Herald, Justin acknowledged that Francis could take him in a fight.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/08/30/archbishop-welby-pope-francis-fight/

Now there's a way to settle differences! Why didn't we think of it? Perhaps the next meeting of Primates could suggest rules for matches.

Or, Nick, is this a job for a Patron of the Knights of Malta? I don't think ++ Raymond could take +++ Francis, but he seems to be experienced both as a fighter and as a canonist.

BW

Father Ron Smith said...

re Nick's suggestion for his favourite Pope: Cardinal Burke. Australians have a synonym for the absolute 'outback' - Back-o-Burke. I guess that's where Australian Catholics would like Nick's choice of Pope to settle - nowhere near any metropolitan See. Nick really is living in the 'Dark Ages'.

Andrei said...

A Filial correction, the first since 1333, for Pope Francis

Anonymous said...

Thank you so much, Andrei, for this link! It will be interesting to see whether the document continues the line of SSPX or frames its resistance in some way informed by StJP2 and B16. And, right or wrong, the long complaint about Francis's alleged Lutheranism will be a treat to read through.

BW

Anonymous said...

Peter, Bowman and Andrei; I have just given the filial correction a first read. It doesn’t pull any punches, does it? Although technically there is no accusation of heresy, it’s as good as. Since there really are no respectable arguments against the correctors on AL, at least, I suspect that there will be some back door ad hominem. It would have been better to blame the Pope’s ghost writers than Luther, but perhaps it was easier to blame a dead man. Fortunately for the Pope, most Catholics won’t notice.

Nick

Anonymous said...

Hi Peter, rather than making an argument about American Raymond Burke’s suitability for Pope, Fr Ron makes ad hominem comments. Where’s that love Fr Ron? What we write can show more than we think.

Nick

Peter Carrell said...

Hi Ron and Nick

Nick: I apologise for letting that ad hominem comment (against both you and Cardinal Burke) through.

Ron: please make your points without ad hominems. You could, for instance, just have easily said, without ad hominem, Whatever we make of Cardinal Burke's theology, it does not appear that it would be popular among Australian Catholics.

Anonymous said...

Peter; no apology is necessary. Cardinal Burke is of course (in Anglican terms) high church. In terms of priestly function, Fr Ron would likely have much in common with him. The difference is that Roman high church clerics are usually conservative.

Nick