Following up on some posts a while back:
Ecumenical cathedral for Christchurch
Keeping my antennae up for what is what and what is not in the thinkingsphere of Christchurch re cathedral or cathedrals and other large churches I am wondering about these questions:
(1) Do we Christians with strong denominational allegiances really grasp the importance for non-Christians of seeing Christians working and worshipping together?
(2) Is a truly ecumenical cathedral (i.e. not only open to all churches for use, but also jointly controlled by all churches) utterly unrealistic?
(3) If 'Yes' to (2), would we Anglicans consider building an ecumenical cathedral which we governed according to a perpetual trust in which we committed ourselves to making the building available to other churches as a priority of use?
I acknowledge that (3) might also prove to be utterly unrealistic, but it would be worth a shot. I sense that Anglicans are not about to give away control and governance of the cathedral (partly because we want to have a cathedral to call our own, partly because the record of joint ecumenical control of churches in this country is not brilliant). I know that currently we consider our cathedral is in general terms open to all. But I wonder if that openness is an openness to the occasional use by other churches and not to regular services being held there by other denominations. (3) here would be about openness to a new way of the cathedral being an ecumenical cathedral.
What my antennae are detecting is the possibility that quite a few Anglicans would like to see the ecumenicity of the future cathedral be explored with resolution and openness to the leading of the Spirit.
Do not go to General Synod in Fiji
On this matter I am hearing nothing at all which suggests it is a good idea for our General Synod to meet in a country where people are bullied, beaten and even killed when opposition to the regime is suspected. There are other ways to engage with the church in Fiji and offer encouragement and support.. Taking our General Synod to a place where we will not be free to speak out what we think about the government of that place cuts against the prophetic freedom we normally prize and cherish at General Synod.
14 comments:
Perhaps go speak to the Mormons about constructing buildings shared by multiple congregations. Especially in areas where land prices are astronomically high. They are expert in building modern edifices that meet the needs of multiple types of activities occurring at the same time. Buildings which can also be opened up internally and provide a huge meeting space when occasion arises. And one has to admit, some of the Temples that they have built through the years are exquisitely beautiful. I am sure much could be learned from them in this regard.
I have never been inside a Mormon Temple, David, but from the outside (here in NZ) they do build striking buildings with good clean lines.
What an interesting idea.
Would an ecumenical cathedral have to be ecumenically consecrated and if so what liturgy would be used? Perhaps Bosco can help?
Won't there be a bit of a bunfight about who gets to use it for Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve, or would that be ecumenical as well? Having the altar on rollers might help.
Perhaps it would just be easier for us to restore the unity of Christianity do you think?
Hi Pageantmaster (What a great name for an organiser of ecumenical festivities!)
I think a consecration stone with the names of various (arch)bishops, patriarchs, moderators, superintendents and (Salvation Army) generals who participated would be a splendid symbol for the cathedral.
It could be that at Midnight on Christmas Eve, the Anglicans take precedent in deference to their history - the Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and Catholics celebrating at another time. But it would be simpler if we had an ecumenical eucharist - we have the liturgists at hand with skills to help. What a great witness at the Birthday of the one and only Jesus Christ who wore a seamless robe!
Do we have to wait for Christian unity before having a single cathedral? Might a single cathedral be a step on the way to Christian unity? Rather than think carts and horses, what about a virtuous circle or a harmonious couple dancing?
Hi Peter+
Thanks - my name? Just one who seeks to follow the Lord of the Dance, rather falteringly.
"it would be simpler if we had an ecumenical eucharist - we have the liturgists at hand with skills to help. What a great witness at the Birthday of the one and only Jesus Christ who wore a seamless robe!"
Well, as Anglicans we take that attitude already - all baptised Trinitarian Christian in good standing with their own churches are welcomed by us, but as for the ecumenical Eucharist - if you organise it, I will come.
"Do we have to wait for Christian unity before having a single cathedral? Might a single cathedral be a step on the way to Christian unity? Rather than think carts and horses, what about a virtuous circle or a harmonious couple dancing?"
Well, on the ground this is exactly what Christians are doing, working together and worshipping and reading the Bible together, without waiting for all the ecumenical commissions, theologians, ARCIC and so on.
The sheep are wandering in and out of the various sheep pens at will according to where they are fed, and the denominational loyalties are breaking down. I do wish the princes of the church would catch up. Although I understand all the various arguments and strictures, I have never found them convincing as to why we should not follow Christ's expressed wish: Ut Omnes Unum Sint.
That is my perhaps eccentric view.
Mind you - there could be downsides to an ecumenical service - I am thinking of a preacher from another denomination I listened to droning on and on and on.
Maybe an ejector chute under the pulpit operated automatically after 15 minutes would help.
Yes, it is "possible" to co-preside at a Eucharist and has been done.
But while Anglicans tend to have Christmas midnight Mass at midnight (or time it for the consecration to be at midnight) RCs regularly have midnight Mass around 10pm - even the pope does! So even sharing a building at Christmas could be possible!
I agree with Pageantmaster - real unity (and divisions) happen more at right angles to the denominational lines that concern less and less people. Denominational lines may remain as accountability for leadership, but even those are mostly ignored now, at least within NZ Anglicanism.
Blessings
Bosco
Alongside your helpful remarks, Bosco, I would still put the fact that the 'real unity' between Christians may be obscured and lost sight of by the surrounding community if the churches we build and the signs we put up 'cement our differences' and we will tend to maintain those differences as long as we order ministry along denominational lines etc (so a Methodist or Presbyterian minister still remains unrecognised as a presbyter in our church etc).
Hi Peter+
"if the churches we build and the signs we put up 'cement our differences'"
If you made them out of cardboard then you wouldn't have to make them out of cement. It is a bit cold and 70's. Glass let's people know what is going on inside and maybe be encouraged to come in.
Hi Bosco
"Denominational lines may remain as accountability for leadership, but even those are mostly ignored now, at least within NZ Anglicanism."
That is interesting - over here, with the growth of interdenominational movements and conferences, it is sometimes hard to know which denomination people are from.
And to both of you - may I ask how things are going for you and your churches? Prayers are ongoing.
The one word answer to your question (from me) is "slowly". If permitted two words, then "very slowly".
The slowness is a function of people wanting to get things right so engineering reports, insurance reports, and the like take a long time. Everyone understands that it is in the insurers' best interests (and ours, we do not want them to go bust) to pay out as slowly as possible!
That's the buildings, but that spirit of slowness does affect lives too: things seem to take longer to get done, whether personal, home based things, or ministry, mission kinds of things.
Otherwise in good spirits, but now knocked around by further setbacks through a large (for NZ) dumping of snow.
At least in the short run, wouldn't it be more practical to start with common activities (Sunday school, Bible study, youth group, outreach, etc,) and then gradually move toward common worship services?
But Paul, those are the prime occasions to indoctrinate folks to the various denominational differences. Do you want denominational leaders to give up their best chances to explain why we are us and they are them?
Pageantmaster said, “with the growth of interdenominational movements and conferences, it is sometimes hard to know which denomination people are from”
Exactly my point. Many people do not have a particular denominational commitment. People have grown up without any particular denominational allegiance. This site will be visited/used by many people who are not Anglican. Important positions in our church are held by people who are not Anglicans.
Blessings
Bosco
I see your point, David. Denominational differences are a reality that an ecumenical cathedral won't eliminate, and questions about them should be handled in at atmosphere of honesty and mutual respect, and especially love. They should also be rare. Dwelling too much on them is a sign that the group is "off message."
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