Is the Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia alive, dying or dead?
I ask the question as a kick off point to some reflections below, but I am aware in posing the question as such a kick off point that there are friends and colleagues within our church, to say nothing of observers from outside our church who not only pose the question but ask it, sometimes in tones which express concern/empathy/sympathy, sometimes in tones which make me wonder if they are being just a tad triumphalistic about other ways of being church here which are most definitely "alive"!
Recently I have been part of events which have involved gathering people from several corners of our church, and, of course, I continue as bishop to be part of contemporary church life in different ministry units in Canterbury, Westland and the Chatham Islands from Sunday to Sunday. I find myself offering an answer to the question above which is nuanced. It goes like this.
There is no doubt some parts of the church are dead (or, "dead"), meaning that we have lost members (through death, transfer to other denominations, dropping out of regular participation in corporate worship, etc), we have closed churches, we have fewer parishes than we used to, and, in some parishes, we are very concerned about missing generations.
There are also searching questions about whether our church is dying (or, "dying"), meaning that we look around us (at, say, ageing members, fewer attending, smaller offerings) and we look at our statistics for the past whenever years and chart graphs which suggest by 2037 or 2056 or 2071 this diocese, or that diocese or the whole of theAnglican church in these islands - Polynesia likely will be another prognosis - will be gone, finished, deader than Monty Python's parrot. (There are some graphs which do predict years of final demise but those years above are made up by me). We are alive as a church in 2026, but we may not be so some years hence. Thus, we are dying (unless there is revival and resuscitation).
We may not, of course, be doomed to follow the exact path of statistical decline. Apart from what I am about to say about our church being alive (or, "alive") in the next paragraphs, we are a nation of many migrants. While most Christian migrants are Catholic, some are Anglican or are keen to associate with the Anglican church. If we are looking ahead to, say, 2050 (the two hundreth anniversary of the arrival of the First Four Ships of the CofE Settlement of Canterbury), then we cannot predict where migratory patterns might take our Diocese and other episcopal units in our church. (We might also, cheekily, observe - speaking very locally - that some internal migration is taking place these days as cool city Christchurch with a stadium, plentiful housing, jobs, etc is drawing people here, and that is bring new people into our churches). The dying parts of our church may yet reverse, shifting from surviving to thriving.
Is our church alive? There are definitely thriving congregations, especially in our larger cities. New people are becoming Christians in Anglican contexts. Christians are being drawn to the Anglican way of being Christian and being church. God is - simply being consistent - still in the spiritual business of transforming lives, growing Christians in grace and gifts, and drawing believers deeper into the spiritual nourishment which comes through the ministry of word and sacrament. For some new(ish) Anglicans, it is our comfortableness in being bicultural which is a "drawcard" factor in becoming Anglican. These aspects of church being alive are simply about numbers of people turning up on a Sunday or getting involved in small groups and outreach activities, they are about people journeying ever more deeply into the resurrection life of Christ.
The past couple of weeks have been especially precious through various events which have reminded me of the mixed up life of our church: signs of death, of dying and - thanks be to God - of life.
34 comments:
Thanks +Peter! I'd be very interested to know anything you might be able to offer about the growth of the Māori part of ACANZP please.
Hi Elizabeth, It is for Tikanga Maori to publish their updates on mission, ministry and community engagement (which is sometimes different to how Tikanga Pakeha might record and report on our life as church). But, if we say focus on congregational life alone, then my broad understanding is that, as in Tikanga Pakeha, there are points of growth and points of consistency of numbers.
"...what does it mean to be the church in this time, beyond Christian nationalism?"
Really interesting article about Zach Lambert's Restore church in Austin, Texas. I used to follow him on Twitter and he's on Substack although I don't follow him now, but I've admired his approach to modern church. More recently his church has joined with the United Methodists. I'm not making any particular point by sharing this.. it's just a really good read - and others here may find it interesting too, I think. Helpful stuff to think about.. given there's plenty of folk who've been deeply hurt by the church in various ways.. I just hope you enjoy this and that it provokes some thought. ~Liz
PS. I think I forgot to provide the link! Here you go:
https://religionnews.com/2026/07/28/booted-from-evangelicalism-a-progressive-post-evangelical-church-blooms-in-texas/
Yes, this must be the most pertinent question for a bishop of the church.
Your nuanced answer sounds both honest and hopeful to me.
One can only comment I suspect from what one encounters : ) … In the last 14 months our small rural congregation has gone from one under 35 year old and one child as regular attendees to 5 under 35 year olds and 3 children (not including children that come with grandparents), with another additional child and couple connected in and wanting to get there more often. This morning at our playgroup (a joint effort with Plunket) a young solo mum asked me if I was associated with the church and she said she wanted to come back to church and to read the bible but didn’t know where to start - yay for keeping Bibles free to take at the back of the church. We have also had a lady in her late 80’s who recently start coming about 8 months ago not for social reasons but because at the urging of her brother she had started reading the Gospel of John. All these occurrences are encouraging not because numbers are what matters but because of the life it brings, and the people who are turning up are coming because they are seeking to connect more with God or to learn more about scripture. And well in our rural setting (e.g. 20 people on a Sunday on a good day) and primarily a congregation composed of people who have been life-long church goers and in the older demographic (many grappling with how few of the younger generation attend church including their own children) it almost falls into the category of astounding. Hopefully this will be encouraging to Bishop Peter!
As a lover of sacred architecture, it is hard for me to see beautiful country churches close, or, even worse, become residential buildings. Or, even worse, get sold to buyers who turn out to be extremist, anti-Vatican II Catholics!
I get the "reality principle": The Anglican Church was established in New Zealand in conditions radically different to our present times. But my heart feels sad nonetheless.
I know were meant to see church as more the people and all that, but...
I also get how historic church buildings can become nooses around the necks of present communities and movements of the Spirit, and that the Anglican Church must make its way on its own credentials, so to speak, as another denomination or spiritual path amongst others, which often means each parish making its own way on its own credentials, albeit with wider, deeper support (or not), rather than get by as being the defacto official church of the NZ people.
Hi Jean: I am encouraged!
Hi Mark et al: It was lovely to be at a city of Chch prayer breakfast (with the Mayor present), yesterday, some 300 people from a variety of churches (mostly not Anglican/Catholic/Presbyterian/Methodist), all enthusiastic and hopeful re the future of the church in its broadest sense ... and a salutary reminder that the current face of the NZ church, now and I imagine for some time into the future, is a very strong lean towards charismatic/pentecostal/evangelical. (Which is, when all is said and done about alive/dying/dead Anglican churches, the lean within our own church re "alive" churches - not exclusively, but mostly.)
Hi Peter,
On my "to read" list is Adrian Thatcher's *Ending Abusive Theologies: Beginning Again with Love*. The blurb on the back says:
"Following various church abuse scandals [the book looks at Smyth and Iwerne], there is now a growing realization that bad theology and bad outcomes are deeply connected. Ending Abusive Theologies attributes the widespread decline of Christian belief in the West in part to harmful, indeed, abusive theologies. At the same time, there has been a widespread failure of the Church to engage with a world that has last lost interest in, and patience with, the Church, while retaining its interest in all things 'spiritual'."
Of the book, Professor Helen King writes:
"What if the reason for the decline of Christianity is that people no longer find our doctrines credible, recognizing them as abusive and dangerous? And how can we find better ways of reading the Bible?
In terms of abusive theologies, Thatcher (an Anglican theologian and sociologist) is particularly concerned with violent images of God in both Old and New Testaments, fundamentalist (e.g. sola scriptura) ways of reading the Bible, the divine child abuse implicit in substitutionary atonement, and divine violence write large across eternity in annhilationist and eternal torment views of the afterlife.
This is all to say: the charismatic/pentecostal/evangelical "lean" you see as the potential future of growth outside and inside the Anglican Church in NZ also presents us with serious stumbling blocks to belief and maturation of faith. Such churches/varieties are most likely to inherit, inculcate, and perpetuate abusive theologies.
I am glad for the breadth of the Anglican Church in such a context, that it has places within it where abusive theologies can be brought into awareness, reflected on, discerned, challenged and reformed.
Hi Mark
I think the following propositions are consistent:
1. Abuse in the church, a sense that the Bible itself includes abusive/violent stories, that even God is (so to speak) a God of Violence contributes to people rejecting belief in Christ, leaving the church and the like.
2. Churches are growing which may not offer much theological reflection on 1 above.
3. Growth in such churches may be different if there is more theological reflection on 1; or, growth may be indifferent to such theological reflection developing.
4. The present and future of Christianity may involve strong antipathy to the faith, to Christians, to churches and enthusiastic embrace of the faith, vibrant Christians and growing churches.
5. In the West, in particular, notwithstanding the latter part of 5, there may be measurable, overall statistical decline in Christian commitment.
In reference to +Peter and Mark's latest comments.
I'm keen on looking at these things alongside what's happening in the public domain - what are people actually seeing play out that involve those kind of beliefs? How are those things being presented? Immediately prior to visiting ADU and seeing your comments I had read this article by Brian Kaylor about Hegseth's Pentagon worship services.
IMHO The Church needs to be alert to these things and to address problematic theologies pro-actively in Christian teaching because these are terrible distortions - are they not?
Here's two paragraphs, and I'll link to the article. This is Hegseth's pastor doing the sermon:
“I want to simply thank you for being a means of God’s grace to us as a country,” Potteiger declared during his sermon. “You, in real time, are an instrument, are one of the many ways God’s grace is manifested to us as a nation to continue securing the liberty that has endured through the centuries. … I want to strengthen you in God’s grace towards you personally as a Christian today. Or to say it another way, I want you this Wednesday to stand firm in the grace of God towards you as you continue the good work that he’s placed in your hands the rest of the day.”
In order to do “the good work” at the Pentagon for “the rest of the day,” Potteiger urged those gathered to “dwell on the immeasurable cost of Christ’s death for you” that saved “us from the bleak and the black eternity that our sin had plunged us towards.” He added, “So stand firm in the grace of God by meditating on the cross and realizing if God didn’t withhold his own Son but gave him for you, there is nothing that is for your ultimate good that he will now withhold.”
[In case any ADU reader doesn't know, Hegseth and his pastor are part of Doug Wilson's CREC (Reformed/Calvinist is how I think of it). And so is Joe Rigney author of "Sin of Empathy"]
See the source article for full context/comments by Brian Kaylor:
https://publicwitness.wordandway.org/p/hegseths-pastor-praises-military
That's exactly it, Elizabeth! Abusive theologies in action, creating violence in the world.
Peter, I'm not sure how much you see Christianity/abusive theologies creating the "strong antipathy" to Christianity from the world that you write about, above.
Christianity is so often its own worst enemy.
I think you'd really like Ending Abusive Theologies, Elizabeth. It discusses recent politics in America and the move away from religion, including the "exvangelical" movement there, and sees this drift away from Church not as a result of "secularization" but due to American evangelicalism perpetuating and inspiring cultures and of power and control and racist, homophobic and abusive theologies.
Hi +Peter and other commenters
I have a lot to say on this topic.
Firstly, sometimes I think we are asking the wrong question when it comes to the church being ‘dead’ or ‘alive’. Sometimes the things that are dead might be a good thing or even just a neutral thing. What is ‘alive’ may actually be perpetuating theologies of huge harm.
I do agree that many of our churches, I would say particularly in the more liberal/progressive/inclusive part of our church, have not done a great job with journeying with younger people and communicating the faith to us in a way that shows pride and promotes belonging. That has contributed to ‘decline’ in my experience.
I am in a part of the church that, while small, is most definitely ‘alive’. We see new people at least fortnightly with people staying around. I run a group comprised of young people aged early 20s-40ish that has grown from 5 members to 20 in a year. It’s not the growth in numbers I want to share so much as the stories of why many of these young women have not found a place in other churches. Some have experience of Anglicanism but do not find a home in conservative evangelical expressions, particularly due to rainbow identity. Others came from denominations where harmful theologies have heavily impacted their life of faith - interestingly, three members of the group had very ill family members growing up and their churches were convinced that if everyone prayed hard enough the dying person would live. When that didn’t happen, there was little journeying in the life of the church through the reality of life and pain. Others are newer to Christian faith and have specifically looked for a community that is open in theology. A lot of what we do in this group is think about questions like how do we have space at the table even for those who we disagree with.
Working in the ‘secular’ world has also been a great gift. I get so many questions and it’s supported me in my ministry to consider what people are thirsting for.
In essence, the good news must indeed be good. I have been in Auckland this week and I saw a couple of people out down Queen Street last night loudly preaching on sin and how awful everyone is and if you don’t intellectually ascent to Jesus then you’re going to exist in a burning pit of fire for all eternity. I don’t understand how this is good news. It’s a theology of fear. Listening to some young people standing at the lights talking about one of these preachers was very interesting. They were so kind and gracious and said he had a beautiful voice and should do voiceovers on the radio. But it’s not exactly a message of love that they were receiving is it?
Something else I think about a lot is what are the systems and structures within our life as parishes and dioceses that are holding us back.
There are numerous small churches that cannot afford to remain. I can’t help think that if bold decisions had been made in some of these communities 20, 30 years ago, things would be different now. Our structure seems to allow communities to just run into the ground. I look to the example of St Luke’s in the City which has enabled the ministry of the inner city chaplain and a new community at the City Mission chapel which gathers many of the last, lost and the least. The time is now for bold decision making that will support us as the church of the future. I certainly hope I will be graced with the opportunity to continue ministering in 2071. That will likely look very different to now but that is also exciting.
Alice
It's a serious concern, Mark. Just now I've read an article about the progression of Pentecostal/Charismatic spiritual music from earlier days of love/friendship themes (Vineyard) to the emergence of spiritual warfare themes in the late 1990s, music of course being a vehicle for disseminating evangelical theology. Late 1990s:
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In 1997, revival fires burned at the Brownsville Revival in Pensacola, an Assemblies of God event. Worship leaders like Lindell Cooley created music that reflected the gathering’s themes of spiritual warfare and the Christian’s conquest of Satan. “I went to the enemy’s camp,” sang Cooley, “and I took back what he stole from me… Satan is under my feet.”
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And this: contrasting earlier Vineyard music with later Christian music:
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While Doerksen and the Vineyard contributed in innumerable ways to the rise of the stadium rock-driven form of modern worship, the theological substance of 21st century worship music is largely an extension of the Assemblies of God theology present at Brownsville. His most enduring songs imagine Jesus as a gentle friend closer than a brother. Today’s worship houses like Bethel and Hillsong increasingly emphasize conquest, victory, armies, spiritual warfare and the prosperous life awaiting the believer from a God who fights on their behalf.
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The article ends with:
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Doerksen’s legacy thus lies not only in the musical language he helped give contemporary evangelicalism, but in the vision of God his songs invited worshippers to inhabit: intimate, merciful and near. As charismatic Christianity assumes a larger role in American religious and political life, the contrast between that vision and today’s more militant worship culture has never mattered more.
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It was in the early 1990s that I ceased going to church because of the increasingly aggressive language in rhetoric, prayers, and especially music which was intentionally pitched at maximum emotional intensity. I was uncomfortable with how manipulative it was and, thank God, I bailed out and attended no longer.
So my feeling re Peter's, "the current face of the NZ church, now and I imagine for some time into the future, is a very strong lean towards charismatic/pentecostal/evangelical" is that I feel troubled and concerned - I'm extremely doubtful this is a positive development (for either our country or our Christianity).
There's too many parallels/convergences between radical Reformed/Calvinism and radical forms of Pentecostalism/neo-Charismatic and their extremely aggressive theologies that easily morph into actual contempt, cruelty and violence.
Source article re my quotes:
https://religionnews.com/2026/07/30/brian-doerksen-gave-evangelicalism-its-soundtrack-but-not-its-current-theology/
"Sometimes the things that are dead might be a good thing or even just a neutral thing. What is ‘alive’ may actually be perpetuating theologies of huge harm."
Really value your experiences and fresh thoughts, Alice!
As someone in the room and who voted on the wind down of St Luke's, it is really heartening (and a relief) to hear of the work of the inner city chaplain. At the time, it felt painful and uncertain to dissolve our beloved parish and gift the money in such a way. I do wonder what other fresh expressions might benefit from similar '"deaths".
Thanks Mark.
I acknowledge the bravery and the pain for St Luke’s. There are some ministry units who may be able to continue a worshipping life together without the burden of an aging building and the cost associated with that while freeing up resource for new ministry that reflects the charism of that particular place.
That is so disturbing, Elizabeth. But also clear and fascinating. Thank you.
I must say from experience , Elizabeth, that the Pentecostal/charismatic/evangelical streams have strengths that the Church universal would be poorer without. But every stream of the church needs wisdom to work with both truth and grace. Sometimes that only comes with the life experiences of their members. And I suspect that those streams here in ANZ are not as militant as in the US.
Hi Moya, the American influence here was strong even in the 1980s in the relatively moderate church I was in, and it was clear how pervasive it was in the anti-Covid demonstrations here (remember how City Impact in Auckland got behind Brian Tamaki?) Don't read me as writing off all Pentecostal/charismatic experience everywhere - it varies according to whether it's occurring within, say, Anglicanism, a Pentecostal denomination, or non-denominational churches. We must however take notice of how radical right-wing charismatic practice and worship have manipulated vast swathes of Americans into violent prayer and associated theologies (e.g. Sean Feucht).
I think our discussion here makes the case for episcopacy, for oversight, for planned church leadership, for, say, a sound and wise Anglican Church helping to guide and ground the "lean" in growth Peter refers to, amongst other areas of aliveness. It is easier, probably, to go from being a less reflective to a more reflective Christian, than to go from no faith to being a reflective Christian.
I encourage everybody to stay awake to what's going on in America because their current Administration and its supporters keep on trumpeting how Christian they are and literally demonising *everyone else* who don't support their "Christian" brand of aggressive Christendom.
Consider this Substack "Note" from Rev Benjamin R. Cremer:
"If you’re wondering why religion at large is becoming increasingly unpopular, this is a huge reason why."
He's laid it out (far more clearly than most) here:
https://substack.com/@brcremer/note/c-306357471
Selection below.. (please read the full context though):
"It should also deeply disturb us Christians in the way the Bible is being used by departments like the department of defense and the Department of Homeland Security. When they equate recruiting ice agents and sending our military to war with answering the call of the Lord, and they are in charge of where those agents and our military are deployed, who then is “The Lord” in that scenario? They are equating service to them as being the same as service to the Lord.
That is heresy. That is idolatry. That is blasphemy. It is taking God’s name in vain."
It is not difficult to see the blurring of boundaries in the USA between politics and religion which in my opinion seems to more err towards a tendency of politics or politicians ‘using’ Christianity to forward their particular cause - when it suits.
The music connection stumps me a bit thought Liz even after reading the article you linked too and your own experience… What would be the songs from Hillsong or Bethel that currently echo military/violent themes? Spiritual warfare I agree is a real ‘thing’ and wouldn’t be surprised if it comes up in some music. I have found a number of songs from Hillsong at least theological sound, such as those by Brooke Ligertwood like King of Kings and What a Beautiful Name, and in former days some by Darlene Zchech like I will run to you. Although I am not sure a mega church would be my scene they have produced in my opinion some great worship songs.
Hi Jean, thanks. Bethel/Hillsong came up in a quote I used and particular entities weren't my target. Nevertheless, Bethel is very NAR-adjacent, and as far as I know Hillsong's fullblown prosperity gospel.
A 2021 article I have tells me, "Most contemporary Christian music today comes out of two churches: Australian based Hillsong and Redding, Calif.-based Bethel, multi-campus congregations that take their NAR teaching full-strength." That may be an exaggeration about Hillsong (but prosperity gospel is problematic enough in itself).
Seven mountain dominionism has spread far-and-wide in the right-wing christian context and it goes hand-in-hand with spiritual warfare against the "demonic" - a flexible label that marks enemies - "demonic" can mean trans people, Democrats, and even Christians they don't approve of. This is where the term "worship" is tricky. We worship God in the sense of "worship" as we're used to that word being used. For right-wing folk into spiritual warfare, "worship" is spiritual warfare and the lyrics may actually be violent. Then we see spiritual warfare people singing these songs publicly as spiritual warfare. E.g. leading up to and at the Jan 06 insurrection *at the same time* as actual violence is happening against the Capitol Police.
I'm not into debating actual entities and what the church should do *but* I strongly believe our churches need to be very discerning in this area and really interrogate the suitability of what they use and promote to congregations.
Here's a helpful article from 2023 that poses things to think about (note: Part 1 presents the opposite view, so all bases covered!). I've only found this today so I've really only skimmed over it tbh - there's good points to think about though.
Why Churches Must Avoid Music from Bethel, Hillsong, and Elevation (Exploring the Worship Music Debate, Part 2)
https://onwardinthefaith.com/why-churches-must-avoid-music-from-bethel-hillsong-and-elevation-exploring-the-worship-music-debate-part-2/
P.S. I'll share a link here to a 2020 article that explains a lot about theology, worship music over time, and the theological ideas that drive Sean Feucht's use of worship songs in protests and political rallies.
I feel the article ought to point out that there's a *big difference* between worship songs being used by the powerless in civil rights protests and songs being used in a weaponised way by the already powerful/privileged! For me this is hugely important.
That said, it offers useful information and insights:
https://religionnews.com/2020/10/23/theres-a-theology-driving-sean-feuchts-worship-music-protests-and-its-a-popular-one/
Interesting that there is a whole ‘thing’ in the cyber world re your links and the influence of modern worship music Elizabeth.
I am not a fan of the prosperity gospel and I can understand why the temptation to such a theology is greater in a bigger church setting.. the influence etc.
A conundrum I suspect e.g. do all of Hillsong or Bethel’s current pastors preach bad theology? Is it one or two or a whole culture? Do song lyrics reflect mis-leading theology etc etc…. I see one of your links criticised Hillsong because they had female pastors - a bit of tit and tat going on etc.
I suspect the discussion re Pentecostal worship being too ‘personal’ ‘emotional’ or ‘experiential’ is from a wider debate regarding church styles and what worship is. I find myself relating to both as in I acknowledge God can work through music and His presence can be experienced (God inhabits the praises of His people) in the same way His presence can be experienced through prayer or scripture. I have also come to appreciate there is a differentiation between understanding/learning scripture and experiencing/knowing Jesus while one can lead to the other. With this holistic take I see worship as encompassing all ways we well ‘worship’ God whether that be in song, or psalms, or thanksgiving, prayer, service etc. Admittedly worship music has led to an understanding in some circles of worship being only music centric, albeit doing our parish profile a year ago when we were in groups having to write down what we appreciated about our worship life together I just about banged my head against a wall when the only idea in people’s orbit was worship was liturgy 😜 so I guess confined descriptions aren’t limited to denominational boundary lines.
In respect of certain churches using music to indoctrinate or in effect brainwash people through emotional manipulation by the types of pauses they use or repetitive phrases etc, I think that would need more careful scrutiny as it is quite an accusation and may be influence by how contemporary songs/music has travelled over time. Sir Isaac Watts was rejected by the Church of England because his songs deviated from the singing of Psalms (e.g. I survey the Wondrous Cross) as in they were too ‘out there’ ‘non-conformist’ ‘personal’ and not scriptural… ) back in the day.
Hi Jean! What specifically concerns me is the kind of belief that uses worship music as a *weapon* in spiritual warfare against people who've been demonised as "enemies". (E.g. "enemies" in that last article I shared were people who'd protested against racism and police brutality). This was one example:
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Though God’s spiritual power is believed to be released through musical worship in general, song choice is still powerful. A popular anthem being sung at Feucht’s (and other recent) gatherings is “Great Are You Lord,” by All Sons and Daughters. In the worship protest context, the line, “It’s your breath in our lungs, so we pour out your praise” becomes a defiant cry against mask requirements and governmental restrictions on congregational singing — while it also indexes a veiled reference to George Floyd’s infamous cry of “I can’t breathe.”
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My concern is that churches need to understand that worship in the spiritual warfare context means something very different to what we're used to, it's actually calling for Gods blessing on religious aggression, and lyrics may contain coded language that's problematic and antithetical to what we believe.
Oh my goodness Elizabeth what a rabbit hole looking into Feucht, I understand now he used to be a song writer with Bethel and has now launched his own ‘brand’ and ‘charity’ alongside using worship music to reinforce his political stance or his political stance to reinforce his christian views??
There does seem to be a bit of blurring of boundaries in the wider surrounding culture there, or do they call it frayed edges - with personality driven religion (lol my term!). Overflowing into areas such as people with ‘known’ gifts of prophecy orchestrating ‘fake’ prophecy when they speak at different churches or to individuals, and the use of funds donated for gospel purposes being used to all but elevate a ‘preacher’ or ‘prophets’ status or brand (for lack of a better term). It could be interesting to compare an example of a person who fits this description with another well known Christian say such as Jackie Pullinger who followed God’s call and since set up a Ministry too etc and yet avoided such pitfalls.
I have attempted to find some common thread in it all and the best I can come up with is it’s almost as if in a lot of the situations people have overlooked God. Great Are You Lord is an older song and in and of itself honouring God, however, by using it in a manipulative manner by using it for another purpose is close to stealing Praise from God himself. To fake prophecies is like having no fear of God and taking alms to promote oneself is akin to taking the place of God.
On the one hand such happenings leave me speechless and on the other saddened. The latter because prophecy and making music and giving to the work of the Gospel are such valuable parts of Christ’s body in the world and misuse of them can lead people to throw the baby out with the bath water.
My mind goes back to the first in Acts, “If their plan is from human origin it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” This gives me consolation when such things occur, notwithstanding harm can be done.
In regards to warning or making churches aware the meaning of spiritual warfare in the context of worship has morphed in some circumstances to incorporate an underlying political/nationalistic agenda - I will let +Peter answer that lol, I know a cop out but I have always found US politics mindboggling!
Thanks for the discussion of worship music, Elizabeth and Jean. Such a fraught topic with those difficult links, and so awful what is being done with what is meant to honour God and encourage faith.
I appreciate Jean’s ability to put into words what I feel and believe about it, but despaired of getting my head around.
I'm so grateful Jean that you've really engaged on this. I've read an outstanding essay just now that provides the larger context within which the spiritual warfare worship nestles very comfortably. I follow this writer on Substack and the essay is fresh off the press - bringing together into one essay the issues with the violence of the current Administration, the biblical themes and political theology that support it, the polished/professional presentation that "sells" their ideas to the general populace, and the competing notions on *what* kind of power ushers in the Kingdom of God.
"There are two different motives at play. God sends in order to give power away. Empire sends in order to accumulate it. And if you want to know which is which, you don’t have to guess. You just have to look at what each one leaves behind in its wake."
I'd love for you to have a read Jean (and anyone) and let me know what you think. Mark, if you happen to see this comment, I'd love you to take a look too! Moya?
Here Am I. Send Me. (To Do What, Exactly?) -- by Daniel Sadlier
https://danieljsadlier.substack.com/p/here-am-i-send-me-to-do-what-exactly
Oh YES! Daniel Sadlier’s analysis is excellent, thank you.
We don’t sing songs of warfare in our church and what spiritual warfare that I have been part of, is focussed on Jesus, not on ‘the enemy’.
I've just found a very CofE-Anglican blogpost (at the Surviving Church blog) about church music with the bonus of interesting personal stories offered below in the Comment area. I thought it may be of interest to ADU readers. I found it fascinating, despite me knowing little about Anglican music and CofE churches. It's easy for me to empathize however, with people who've found their evangelical background problematic!
Music, Emotion and Control - What we know now (11-Jul-26)
https://survivingchurch.org/2026/07/11/music-emotion-and-control-what-we-know-now/
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